DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum making SENSE of the QB stuff ...

The fact is Diam,we needed to keep both of them untill we we were sure "Quinn was ready to be named the back up". We did that.

Quinn is now #2 on the depth chart and could go in on any snap if DA goes down.

Exactly what you claimed you DIDN'T want!

First it was let him sit this year.
Then it was,"well,after the bye".
Then it was,"Maybe DC has a point".
Now it is,"Quinn is one snap away from being thrown into the fire in week two if DA goes down".

Yet,through the entire process,you've belittled EVERYONE who suggested this may happen?

Yeah,you've made some sense out of this all-right.

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But everyone also knew that the best thing for BQ was to sit and learn for atleast 8 games or more.

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Not everyone "knew" that... Funny how most people said they wanted him to start when he's ready... then they they would state when he would be ready... How does anybody on this board know how ready he is? Is he going to be more ready after watching 8 games than 4? Why not 12? If you can learn a lot in 4 games, then the difference from 8 to 12 must certainly be the same as 4 to 8 right?

I have seen some very valid and good points while reading these two threads, my point has still not yet been stated though: IMO, RAC and Savage saw this pathetic performance against pittsburgh, decided it would not get any better with the players/mood in place, so they decided to light a fire under their butts and trade Frye (which probably would have happened eventually, this just sped up the process), now, they not only have set an example to other under achieving players, but they have hopefully sent a wake up call to the team calling for better play on the field.

NRTU

I think some people are getting too caught up in the title "Starter" that was bestowed on Frye this year... I liked Frye when we got him, but he hasn't been a 'starting' QB since he's been on our team... maybe a change of scenery will change that? But I doubt it.... especially since I read he was brought into Seatle to be their 3rd string QB.

When you look back at pre-season and we had three crappy 'veteran' QBs and a rookie you could give the title 'starter' to any of them and it didn't really matter... the only one who is probably starter material is the rookie.

Frye was what? the 31st or 30th worst starting QB last year? It wasn't all the OL folks.

And personally I don't see this as being a knee jerk reaction. I can't image Savage doing that. If he did then I totally disagree with it. But I have a feeling that we were planning this for awhile (trading Frye if we could). I think there was a story about Savage telling Ken that he might be brought back when he was released....

this does feel a bit like a soap opera, but it'll be interesting to see who gets the start this week.

Excel,
Excuse me right off the bat because I'm typing this and listening to Opie. Now I can see why the Opie used a 2 track system to get the QBs up to speed and try to see if you can get one to shine and take the starting position. BUT, he even stated that people were asking about CF back in May and during camps. TO me, after 2 years, if those two are not developing that is when we need to make some decisions.
As far as CF confidence, it was one game and in the preseason, DA did not come through, so what if he looks as bad as CF did last week, what do we do then?

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How is it Bush League? We got a draft pick for a QB that's likely not worth anything and more than likely would of been cut at the end of the season, and we brought in the guy best suited to mentor Quinn.

And you keep bringing up this "starting QB" junk? Who's going to come to Cleveland when they KNOW Quinn is in the wings waiting to replace them!?!? PLEASE TELL ME. What exactly would you have done?

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Please, this move was HUGELY STUPID and I would tell Opie to his face. And the reason is this > before the season or even during training camp, if I'm having concerns about either to QBs, you can get more for them BEFORE everyone sees that they are not progressing! Think about it, if I you have a bad car to trade in, do you point out the flaws in the car or do you try to hide them? After the Pit game, like I said before, your lucky to get that 6th round and some gum! Now before the Pit game, some one might offer you more for him.

As I was listening to the Presser, of course the Cleveland media has no common sense to even ask that. Just like you and Opie said, both were serving the same purpose and neither really progressed, so let him go before or during camp. Go out and get a veteran QB, and keep BQ on the other track, training him up.

BTW - Even Opie said that after the first game, he started making some calls to speed this up!!

DC,
Your right, no one, not me knows how ready Brady is. BUT we know that rookies have a hard time adjusting to the speed of the game, blitz packages, new lingo..etc. SO add that with him coming late to camp, yea, odds are that he is not ready. We also know that rookies usually are do not make good strides until their 2nd year in the league. ( With the exceptions of Marino and Young) - So letting BQ sit and learn is a odds on good path to take.

Just Clicking.....

I would like to thank the Cleveland Browns for treating the 1st Home game against our Arch Rival Steelers as a FREAKING 5th Pre Season Game. I would like to request a refund for my ticket, hotel, and airfare for having to watch them "try out" Charlie Frye before deciding on him.

Give me a break. We are now the most dismal franchise in the NFL. If Brady some how can make this once proud team respectable once again, then we all owe Mr. Quinn a huge THANK YOU.

Raleigh

Diam,

I will give credit where it is due...

Just listened to the Savage presser and he must have taken that PM you sent him and rehearsed it before his speech... You were pretty much spot on with your theory...

And BTW, he also mentioned that they have tried to shop Frye AND DA for months now... imagine that...

That's what can be expected when you can't arrive at a decision on who has the upper hand at the posiiton. Going the route of "Let's flip a coin", "Ok, you play a series the he'll play a series" resulted in nobody gaining experience and neither building any consistency or confidence!

And if they didn't think either was the answer to fill in while Quinn developed...
then go get someone who could!

Anderson to #1 and bringing back Dorsey was the optimum decision?

No big deal.
Everything is a dress rehersal until Quinn comes in anyhow.Management knows it,the players know it,and now most of the fans now realize it.Kinda de-values every game until that point in time.
The only disconcerting thing I find it all this;
Is that you can you pull a post out of a thread and start a new thread without any regard for proper board etiquette(sp?) or clutter.
We need a good ref around here.What's that guy's name that officiated bottle-gate and what's he doing these days?

After seeing Frye's performance on Sunday, everyone knew that he wasn't going to be the starter here...and for him to be moved from starter to backup prbably wouldn't set well...the only thing they really could do was to trade him (if possible).

Sorry bro, but I think you can handle this in your thread.

Thading Charlie at this point in the season is dumber than sticking one finger up your nose, and the other up your arse while sitting naked in your living room on national TV I didn't read the eight page long thread, nor will I because it would be a waste of time. While CF might not have been the best option for the Browns, this move makes the front office look like total idiots

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this move makes the front office look like total idiots

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Maybe... but if by the end of the year, Quinn is starting and looking pretty good, nobody will care.

CF was a mistake from the moment he was drafted... He was taken too high and has questionable QB lineage... Many here were not sold on the young man from day one... IMO, it took to long for our organization to relaize this... Plainly a bad choice from the jump...

It is difficult to make sense out of a cluster_ _ _ _... Plain and simple that is what the QB situation has been in Cleveland since we go our team back... By the way DA stunk in college and he still does... I watched him for years up here and he is still making the same mistakes... You can't make gold out of tin foil...

Not one of the regimes has gotten it right until maybe BQ... And he still has to show he's the man... Will he be given the two to three years to grow and become the QB he can be??? My gut right now says no...

The Cleveland Browns since 1999 have changed FO's and CS's as much as many change their underware... There has been little no patience, continuity, trust and or any long term commitments to any position or player outside a very few...

I don't agree with or understand PS's QB philosophy... If he has one... When he was a Rat they had no QB... Dilfer was a serviceable veteran back up with some physical skills when he led the Rats to the SB... Other than that who esle have the Rats had @ QB to lead them to the SB??? NO ONE!!! Quite frankly their QB situation is the biggest reason they have not made it back to the bowl...

PS brings the same lame arse QB train of thought to C-Town and the Browns are in the same situation as the Rats @ QB... A young promising propsect that needs time and opportunity to possibly become a solid performer... And no QB that can lead, win and stay healthy in the mean time... McNair was/is a solid NFL QB... He had one outstanding year in his NFL career... But when you look at his overall performance, minus his great year, he has had an average NFL run... He can't stay healthy and is almost done...

The Browns QB situation is as close to a joke as it can be... They have no viable veteran starter/back up to compete, win now and mentor BQ... PS and the CS has had ample opportunity to keep a couple of guys that could have filled the role and plenty of opportunity to acquire several other QB to fit the bill...

The QB future is going to be an interesting situation to watch... I just hope that the people who make the decisions figure out that if they keep doing the same idiotic things they will get very similar results. If you keep doing the same thing wrong, the same wrong thing will continue to happen.

We shall see... Take care, hang in, be well, pray for one another and our team.

This is what I was talking about in the PM. It was painfully obvious that Fry was done here, and had NO confidence whatesoever. Imo what happened went something like this.........


1. They didn't want BQ starting until he was ready......

2. They were trying to trade one of the other QBs, but couldn't get much more than a 6th or 7th at the time

3. They decided to hold what they had and see if maybe Fry could play his way into a 1st day pick........

4. Then sunday happens and they take what they can get.......while they can still get something.

Dude Fry was done here the moment BQ was drafted (and I know you know this), and I just don't think he had the mental makeup to deal with it. That's why I stated in what I did in the PM..........


I'll PM the rest of the reply to you, but don't want the dolts using it for their agendas

J/C

Normally I wouldn't do this...but I think it has relevance to this discussion. This is a post I made on the "Frye Traded #2" Thread.....

First let me say this....

Good Luck to you Charlie Frye. I was one of your harshest critics and I have taken quite a bit of grief for it. It is well known that I did not think much of you as a football player....But I have NEVER questioned your desire, your courage, or your character. You came into a situation that you did not have the means to correct. And you worked harder than anyone in order to do just that. As a person you deserve the chance to sit back for a few years and get tutored and comfortable in a systenm that can better take advantage of your particular skills. In all honesty I really don't think you will have a great career as an NFL QB...But as a person you have my utmost respect. And I hope you prove me wrong as a QB. Good Luck Charlie Frye.




Well at least it isn't boring!!!!

You know this all would have been completely avoided if one of those two (CF or DA) would have stepped up and clearly won the QB competition.

As far as I can tell this is what happened.

We only have so many picks in the draft to fix things. The FA QB's were not much of an option at the prices being asked. (Or the QB did not want to come to Cleveland) So when it came time for the draft, we made the decision to take Thomas over Quinn. I think they thought quite heavily about QB. QB was a definite need in their eyes. But OLine and the LT spot in particular was possibly a Bigger Need and Safer Pick. So we decided right then and there that we will take our lumps this year at QB and we take Thomas.

Then something unexpected happens. Most notably, Miami takes Ted Ginn. Minnesota was a possibility...but they were investing heavily in Jackson...So while a suprise they did not take Quinn ....it was not a very big one. The Browns see their shot and they go for it. It was said many times by them that they would have had to use next years #1 pick on QB...not RB or WR or DL or anything else....They continually said QB...and that plus the fact that they had been trying to shop our 2 QB's around tells me that the believed QB was a position of great need.....

NOW...we have drafted our future QB...But there are 2 problems with this.

#1.....He is a rookie and a large investment. We can't afford to ruin his development. The priority at the QB position for the Browns is now the development of Brady Quinn.

#2.....He is a high candidate for a hold out. It was widely known that the Browns were burning up the phone lines at about pick 10. Meaning they were willing to take him at that spot. It is also known that Brady was very high on our board. Lastly Tom Condon was his agent and Tom is noted as a tough nut to crack in getting his QB's signed....

So where does that leave the Browns....with Charlie, Derek, and Ken. They do this so they can develop Brady separately on his own course. They know Brady won't be in camp on time to seriously challenge the starters. So we are left with the other 3. Ken has one use and one use only. And that is to be the mentor. The other 2 would have to be candidates for the position of Babysitter of the QB Spot Till Brady is Ready, better known as BQBSTBR(yes that is an official position in football ). Ideally we can have Brady in the wings with Ken mentoring him and Charlie or Derek at the helm temporarily.

There was only one problem to this.....who do we keep????

Derek or Charlie......

Both had positives and both had flaws.

Charlie's positives were his leadership, his toughness and his fight. His negatives were his indecisiveness, and his physical skills.

Derek's positives are his quick decisions, his strong arm, and his ability to read prior to the snap. His negatives are his quick decisions, his inaccurate arm, and his post snap reads....lol

Neither are clearly better than the other. So then comes the brilliant plan....Lets have a QB Competition!!!!!!

Unfortunately for us....nobody won....

This is why Ken Dorsey was let go. Because nobody decided to step up and definitively say "I am better than you". If that would have happened in the preseason...then the loser would have been let go and Dorsey would have stayed on. But that didn't happen. So the Browns, with no clear #1...decided to hedge their bets and stick with both #2's. God forbid one of these guys were to go down and Brady be forced to play too soon. Remember....Brady's development is priority #1.

So here we are...we have our QB competition. Where the Media that keeps asking the same questions over and over that I think Romeo had enough of it and did the crazy coin flip thingy....Because remember it doesn't matter who wins the QB spot because they are just playing for the BQBSTBR (see I told you it was a position...LOL) Brady's development is priority #1

Throughout this entire process, Savage is keeping an ear to the ground about the marketablilty of either QB....He would not be doing his job if he didn't....

So then comes Pittsburgh. Charlie Frye gets the start as he was more consistant than Derek in the preseason games. He starts by default. In the mind of the Cleveland Browns....the competition is still going. I think they had it in their minds that as soon as one distanced themself from the other they can go and get Dorsey back.

Charlie goes out and lays the biggest bomb we have ever seen. His negatives were exploited and made public to the world....If you have children about...cover their eyes....Derek goes in and does not do much better...but the one thing he was able to do that Charlie wasn't was get rid of the ball and force Pitt to ease up on their pressure some. And he was able to move the ball better....albeit not by much. I think this regular season test spoke volumes for the FO and coaching staff. They knew the book on both of their QB's better than their opponants. But they had to give each guy a chance to improve on those weaknesses....Charlie was having too many problems and had to be pulled. Derek moved the team...not well....not greatly...but much better than Charlie.

So in the minds of the FO and Coaches...I think they found their winner....it may have been by default.....It may have been because there was more interest around the league for Charlie....whatever it was...they decided that Brady could handle the jump to #2 even if it was sooner than they might hav ewanted because of Brady's holdout. And they decided that Derek getting the ball out quicker was a better option than Charlie's indecisiveness....especially combined with the better offers for Charlie....

That is my take. Now granted...like the rest of you, I am making suppositions based on the little data we have. I am inferring a few things, but it is based more on the actions taken and not by outright guessing.....But I think that is what happened. Andfrankly, they might have made a few bad decisions in the long run...but I think at the time...the were probably the best decisions they could have made...so you really won't find me berating them about it....

Dude Fry was done here the moment BQ was drafted (and I know you know this), and I just don't think he had the mental makeup to deal with it
Actually he was done last year .
If I could see he is inconsistant , doesn't have the arm strength, and can't finish drives , they SAW IT TOO.

That was why DA was allowed to compete..and it's WHY the competition took place..to see if either Frye would/could step up or if DA could outplay him.
Since I don't have a agenda let me something for some in here..Phil TOOK LITTLE RISK in drafting him where he did although CF was not the top rated player on the board..
He took a chance to try and develop the kid to see if he do something.

Now one could say they could have adjusted their draft plan and get the best players they could and perhaps get a vet , then draft a top prospect so you don't have this turmoil at the QB spot.
I wasn't a fan of the pick but I wanted to see how the kid could play..After seeing his inconsistancies last year it was clear he was not the answer EVEN if the Browns upgraded every spot..
He is a backup and nothing more.

Neither guy was going to "step up" like RAC said he was looking for. They were what they were and nothing was going to change that. Not even flipping a coin.


Then it shouldn't have bothered U then..BUT IT DID..
You wanted Frye to be named STARTER before preseason came..
It didn't happen ...they let 'em compete ..and had DA EVEN remotely edged him out , Frye was gone..but thats the other reason they let it play out.

That coin is so far up U , you Now have a third intestine

Your agenda is trying to rationalise every stupid move RAC makes.
Rationalize...sorry no agenda..just some of you hump at the chance to call everything that happens Rac's fault..
That's YOUR AGENDA...
As far as Rac goes..I don't know if he has what it takes to be a successful HC..I'm trying to give the guy a chance to see what he does with a good talent pool..
If he can't handle it , he'll be gone..but I'm not calling for his head right now.
I gave that idiot Botch a chance and I'll give Rac one also.

I don't need to analize every move when some don't matter.

I told you what we had in these two guys going into this "QB competition" and that wouldn't change by playing some silly BS game.

GMAB ..what you CLAIMED was that not naming a starter STUNTED Frye..
That he shoulda taken all these reps instead of the rotation.

I said it DIDN'T MATTER..how many times did I tell U it didn't matter?
Neither QB was/is the answer.
They just wanted ONE GUY to manage the offense long enough to get Quinn up to speed.

The results are that Frye's confidence was hit..not so much from the comp but the fact he KNEW he was seat warmer for Quinn..

FACT is his abilities are TOO FLAWED to be a quality QB..

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Go out and get a veteran QB, and keep BQ on the other track, training him up.

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NDC this is the only logical action...we should never have let Dilfer leave. We completely disrupted the team because Dilfer didn't like Carthon and then dump Carthon. Then with no veteran QB we get Quinn which signals to Frye he is not here for long...to top that off we don't even give Frye a real chance to learn the new offense and throw him into a tough game as cannon fodder. No QB will prosper without supreme confidence but that was killed by Crennel and Savage so why not trade him for a veteran after the draft????

Crennel looks like an inept weakling and Savage an inexperienced dealer that can't coach. We have plenty of inexperience at QB and the front office. The Davis "gut feeling" looks like inspiration compared to this.

Attack you have to use some common sense if you want to have a chance to win. You don't kill team unity by not giving your QB every chance to succeed. Frye was not given the priority on learning the new offense and was not told he was the guy. Even if he was not going to last he had to have something to believe...a QB without confidence is nothing.

Crennel is supposed to know this but he doesn't. Savage is supposed to know that a team needs exeperience at QB if not for a starter a guide for the new guy. Without Dilfer a we lost more than a vereran QB we lost a player that could help the new QB. We can now expect to lose and maybe get Quinn killed like Couch. In three years will we be saying Quinn is just no good get someone else?

Merth how are we preparing Quinn? At least with Dilfer we had some experience and a QB coach. Quinn thinks he can make it happen but he is not working with Weis. If he fails, and he will, both Savage and Crennel may be gone. If we lose the guys that drafted Quinn how long will he last if he doesn't win big. There is more to this game than draft picks and plays...you have to believe in your ability and the rest of the team.

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We can now expect to lose and maybe get Quinn killed like Couch.

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That will not happen. Our line is light years better than what Couch had and I believe Brady makes quicker decisions. He may stink, but he will do it without the ball in his hand.

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If he fails, and he will

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well that's optimistic

A veteran QB is not needed. Unless, NO is willing to trade us Brees for a sixth rounder, e.g. someone who knows the offense.

Relax, the future is Quinn, everything else is a placeholder.

I agree that Dilfer wrote his ticket out of town, he thought Carthon was an idiot, and was probably right.

I can tell from this statement that you are a Fryer and in the end you are also a loser just like your boy.

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Quinn thinks he can make it happen but he is not working with Weis. If he fails, and he will

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I also can make outragous statments so here it goes: Quinn will take us to the Super Bowl in 08!

The only losers around here are people like you and Ammo insulting one of the classiest kids to ever don a Browns' uniform. You are an embarassment to Browns fans. Now, go rub your Couch doll and let the adults talk.

Atleast Charlie didn't shed any tears when he was booed.

You don't kill team unity by not giving your QB every chance to succeed. Frye was not given the priority on learning the new offense and was not told he was the guy.
Then lets use common sense in this situation.

First thing...After Frye's performance last year and the fact the coaches seemed to prefer DA's skillset over Fryes, they (Rac) declared a QB competition would take place in training camp..that was repeated during the offseason REGARDLESS of who was going to be the OC.
So they get a new OC and still have their QB battle in camp.

So U tell me at what POINT was Frye SUPPOSED to be given the priority to be given all the reps when it was said he would COMPETE for the job?
Same stuff I told Pit..no different.
If they did anything different the players knew they were LIARS..
What the reality is..is that Frye didn't look real good in camp and neither did DA...
Then comes preseason..and with what results?

The only guy who really looked good was "The QB" NOT FRYE, NOT ANDERSON...but we knew where that was going.
So it on Frye to step up and SHOW he wanted the job.
it was up to DA to beat him out for it.

It really didn't happen, so Rac went by default, all the time being..a trade was on the table for Frye by Seattle..

But I said in other posts I knew early in the offseason they were shopping BOTH..I just learned yesterday about it being the Seattle deal.

What you guys fail to get is that Frye just doesn't possess the skillset we need.
His talents are more for a WCO ...and I don't need to go into his weaknesses..
What U have DG were two BACKUP QB's trying to win a starting job..
Not a good situation.

I keep saying I have no problem with the QB comp ..because there was no clear cut winner and there wasn't going to be..

The coaches wanted DA to win it early...didn't happen.
And as far as DA goes..tell me, what has he really done except look like a pocket passer?

He hasn't put up a lot of scoring drives because he can't finish drives...
So for me I'm not and WASN'T enamored with either QB because they both short -circuit themselves in different ways.
What I WANTED was for Phil to bring in a VET who could run the offense until Brady was ready mid-season...
It's very hard to watch our offense bog down drive after drive...

I could not have said it better myself. Anyone who would wish Charlie ill is a jackass, pure and simple. And that's being nice.