DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Frye Traded #2

Dude good to have you back. How was your trip to Mars?

When I read your post I thought your time away did you a world of good because I agreed with 100% of what you said.

Quote:

---

For starters, sitting on the bench for a few years wouldn't have helped Couch. He got no better as time went on, and his frail arm finally gave way, as it had only so many throws left in it. However, when it comes to talent, Couch never had Winslow, Edwards, and Joe J. Couch never had bonifide starters all over his offensive line. Furthermore, people need to realize that Quinn was a starter as a freshman, and started all the way through his senior season.

I wish I could find the column that showed that QB's with extensive college starts found greater success as an NFL starter. Couch left after splitting starts as a Freshman, then left after his Junior year. Quinn won't get better by sitting on the bench, not significantly anyway.

There's another aspect to this that I doubt anyone has considered. I was adamant that Frye get starts his rookie season, so that we could determine SOONER RATHER THAN LATER whether or not he was a bonifide NFL starter. Well, same goes for Quinn. The more starts he gets, the more he takes his lumps, the quicker he hits his learning curve, and the faster we get to see if he's the guy or not. We aren't sacrificing Quinn by starting him. His situation and Couch's are nothing alike.

---

Then on a later post you started to waffle as you have done in the past.

Quote:

---

I don't want Quinn starting yet. After the bye-week is when I'd get him in there, unless Anderson does manage to look like an NFL QB. My arguement with Quinn is that making him sit for this entire year would be wasting valuable experience. It will take this line time to gel (thought I put that in there? Maybe I didn't, but I was thinking it *L*).

---

How many years have we been waiting for an OL to gel? IMO the QB helps an OL to gel and the sooner Quinn is the starter the sooner the OL will gel!

Glad to have you back big guy!

I do feel this is the best thing for both charlie and the Browns,

I do wish Charlie well, and have a new # 2 team to rtoot for Seahawks, and might go out and get me a # 5 Seahawks Jersey.

good Luck Charlie, see ya back in willard

Listen to Savage on the radio today...the audio's on Clevelandbrowns.com

One of the things Savage said was "the first 15 pass attempts we're sacked 5 times, the last 29 we were sacked once, and we think that a lot of that had to do with who was pulling the trigger at QB because the offensive line didn't change."

"Our pass protection was the best I've seen in the 3 years I've been here, and every sack we took I'd say 5 of the 6 you could tie DIRECTLY to the QB because there are times when the Steelers come on a blitz blocked and it's up to the QB and receivers to adjust and get rid of the football."

He did then go on to say you can't pin everything on #9 (or is it #5 now? LOL), and there's 44 guys playing out there.

"We can't have any more games like we had Sunday."

I think that says "lose big and Romeo's gonzo"

So...now that the freaking GENERAL MANAGER of the Browns says pretty much EXACTLY what I said...do the biggest Frye huggers/my detractors believe me now? Hell, I was gonna say MORE of the sacks (like 2 or 3) were tied to the O-line, but I guess I was wrong about that.

Trading Charlie Frye no great loss for Cleveland Browns, Bill Livingston says
Thursday, September 13, 2007Bill LivingstonPlain Dealer Columnist
Charlie Frye had little to rec ommend him except earn estness as a lifelong Browns fan and geographical happenstance as a college player at Akron.

Both gave him a pass for a time. The rub was that eventually he had to pass, too.

After he was warned that running around like the chicken Sylvester Stallone chased to improve his quickness in "Rocky 2" would not work in the NFL, Frye turned into Tim Couch - just another Browns quarterback with question marks in his eyes, who threw late to open guys or took sacks without throwing at all.

Advertisement





The Browns look even worse than is their already shabby norm by trading Frye Tuesday after anointing him as the starter, all after only 1½ quarters of play in the opener. But what a 1½ quarters!

One must question the soundness of their evaluation process. This was a big reversal of field after General Manager Phil Savage pleaded for the chance to see Frye with all the components of a respectable offense in place. Anything that gets Brady Quinn closer to putting down the clipboard and taking the snaps, however, is a positive move.

Frye was ill-served here with a revolving door of offensive coordinators, but so was Bernie Kosar years ago. Kosar also lacked Frye's good, but not great, athleticism. The difference is that Kosar proved quickly that he could play.

The feeling is that most of Quinn's teammates have that sense about him.

The Browns won't start Quinn yet because, as they say, there is no turning back once they do. That's even though Cincinnati's defense is not the Bengals' strong suit in the game at the lakefront this Sunday.

Before showing he could take command of a huddle and make throws neither Frye nor Derek Anderson have made, Quinn faced doubts about his play in big college games.

Among those Notre Dame lost to with him was Oregon State, when Anderson was a senior and Frye a sophomore. Anderson does have a powerful arm, but Quinn in his brief exhibition season work seems to be the better overall package. The Notre Dame meltdown in his absence this season should be proof of how much he meant to the Irish in all his games.

If you thought Quinn padded his stats in college against the service academies and other non-elite teams, get a load of what Frye did:

He had an overall record of 5-11 in NFL games that he started and finished. The victory over Kansas City last year was a combined effort by Frye and Anderson, as was the loss Sunday, although Frye dug the hole.

Frye's NFL victories came against teams with an aggregate record of 29-51. The New York Jets (10-6 last year) were the only winning team he beat. Even throwing Kansas City in makes the opponents' mark only a poor 39-57.

It was a trend. In his final two seasons at Akron, the Zips beat one team, 6-6 Marshall in 2004, that didn't have a losing record. Akron went 13-10. Two of the wins came against 1-AA teams. The Zips beat Division 1-A teams with a combined record of 31-96 those years.

The Browns look chaotic by doing this now. Yet trading a below-average quarterback who beat up on stiffs after a debacle isn't a big deal.

To reach Bill Livingston:

blivingston@plaind.com, 216-999-4672

http://www.cleveland.com/sports/plaindea....xml&coll=2

Was Charlie ever a winning QB? A horse is a horse, of course, of course.

Quote:

---

The Browns look chaotic by doing this now. Yet trading a below-average quarterback who beat up on stiffs after a debacle isn't a big deal.

To reach Bill Livingston:

---

I hate those that beat up on a player, once he is gone and unable to defend himself.

Livingston is an idiot who will write "anything" to fill up space.

Would you trust the jugement of the local newspaper hack...or the judgement of Mike Holgren?

Like I said, Livingston is an idiot newspaper hack, just filling up space in a newspaper that gives him a platform.

Why? just cuz he's speaking the truth?

Frye didn't do jack squat in college against quality MAC opponents?

I have a feeling that the difference in talent between the worst team in the MAC and the best team in the MAC is much narrower than the difference between Notre Dame and USC, Michigan (pre-2007), Ohio State, LSU, etc.

I think Michigan could probably win the MAC this year....

Mac, don't bother. Ammo picks and chooses things he thinks solidifies is often wrong opinions. He doesn't have a clue. Notice how he used direct quotes to support his hatred, but then glosses over how Savage said you couldn't put all the blame on Frye. He's one step above a troll and will soon be rooting for another front running team and thankfully the board will be rid of him. He's immature and angry over Frye not giving him an autograph and that Savage didn't draft Troy Smith with the #3 pick. Just laugh at his nonsense and be thankful that you don't have his football IQ....or lack thereof.

Quote:

---

So...now that the freaking GENERAL MANAGER of the Browns says pretty much EXACTLY what I said...do the biggest Frye huggers/my detractors believe me now?

---

Ammo you should have been around here long enough to know that if Opie or RAC or ESPN says something they agree with, then it is a resource to be trusted and used to back up your own opinion... if they say something that you disagree with then they are idiots who are lying or hiding the truth for some other motive....

Post deleted by stabber53

Posted last night.

I kinda feel sorry for Frye, but I KNOW that he has the talent to be a good QB. He's not a bum. He knows how to play the game.

A blessing in disguise is probably correct, cuz no one in Cleveland is being blessed right now.

I feel sorry for him too.

he didn't want to do bad. This was his hometown team for crying-out-loud....but that may have been the problem.

There has to be an added pressure with that the fact.

I got on the Seahawks website and in a round about way they said we are the joke of the NFL and all we do is run QBs out of town. They said the fans are a joke and a bunch of morons. Then they put up a picture of Ammo. Its all there if you read between the lines.

now thats funny.

nordawg

MAC...

no doubt we (Phil, RAC, etc.) look like fools on this one...but honestly, who cares?...

if we can win a game or two before Quinn's ready, and he plays like we've seen (presence, decisions, accuracy, not #s), we're gonna get near .500...then all this crap about being a joke of the NFL doesn't matter...it's about BEING good, not LOOKING good...

I just watched the interview with Frye done by NFL Network over on the Seahawks website.

He seems like a good kid and a good person, and I wish him the best of luck. He put on a good face in front of the cameras and said all the right things, and that had to take some major internal fortitude. I really wish it would have worked out with him here, but he just had a complete mental meltdown, and he is not above the Browns team. After what happened on Sunday, I don't think you can argue with moving him...making us a laughing stock or not.

I would have really loved to see him be the #2 guy here, but I'm not sure that would have worked for him. It will be a lot easier to be the #2 or #3 guy on a team that's not a hometown team.

I'm anxious to see if the Seahawks coaching staff can help him develop his game. I'll actually be pulling for him. Not that I wish injury on anybody, but I wouldn't mind seeing him get in a game or two if Hasselbeck goes down.

I was horrified after the game by what I saw from him. I can't remember a worse performance by a qb ever. Those that say 'how can you pull him so early' weren't watching the game. It's about the only thing RAC did right.

But man, we're all humans too, and what has happened had to be rough on him, and it's hard not to feel sympathetic toward him. It's probably hard on his family as well. But when ever life throws curve balls, sometimes you knock them out of the park. He's got a good attitude. He'll be ok.

BTW...I don't know what people who post here do for a living, but I have no idea how so many people can find the time to do as much posting as they did when this story broke. I was able to read the message board from work but not able to post.

Some of us have to work for a living...

Toad,

For all the bashing of the Frye selection, his advantages and shortcomings were well known when he came out of college.

Noodle arm, extremely mobile, smart and competitive.

The Browns did him a dis-service by trying to make him a drop back passer. Very few NFL coordinators understand how to use a mobile QB. Michael Vick was known as a "coach killer" before his true preference became known.

The Browns had Ellis Hobbs targeted just before Frye. Savage has stated this. So, did the Browns make a mistake. Yes, a 3rd rounder should stick, and Hobbs starts for the Pats. Does that make Frye an undesirable player, (e.g. stiff) no,

A couple of years under Holmgren will help him in ways that were never possible in Cleveland. Funny thing is we often hear about Chud trying to "adapt the offense to the strengths of their players", but when it came to Frye, this criteria did not apply. Lip service in the truest sense, because it did not apply to Frye.

If this was the case, then the Browns should have foregone the BS in training camp with the QB carosel, and traded Frye for whatever the highest offer was on the table.

I think we agree on the following: the Browns need to call a spade a spade and get Quinn ready. That decision will ultimately have more affect upon Savages tenure as GM, then a poorly selected third rounder.

I watched the Frye interview as well as the Jim Zorn interview. Zorn said he's currently trying to teach Frye football.... meaning Seattle's terminology. Every system is different, every system has different terminology. Charlie has a lot to learn, all over again. It could be a couple weeks before Frye is able to take snaps for Seattle.

It will be interesting to see how the kid develops.

On the Seattle board, most people are glad to have picked him up---and I'm rooting for him to eventually be able to step in for Hasselbeck when th time comes.

Yeah, sometimes I wonder if anybody on here works but me. I don't even post as much as I used to because of having a kid now, but even before that, I never posted as much as some people.

"he screwed it[the franchise] for the past three[years] with Frye". Dude.... It took that long to build a respectable LB corp and OL. The QB position was just one piece ( of 53) of the puzzle. It sounds like you are blaming everything that has gone wrong during the past three years on Frye. Now that Frye is gone will the team be any better? I don't think so, but I'm more than willing to eat my words on this one. I have been doing alot of that lately anyway. Even if Quinn is the second coming we still need a decent #2 . I believed that Frye could fill that role. I just threw my crystal ball out with the garbage

The Browns had Ellis Hobbs targeted just before Frye. Savage has stated this. So, did the Browns make a mistake. Yes, a 3rd rounder should stick, and Hobbs starts for the Pats. Does that make Frye an undesirable player, (e.g. stiff) no,

Yes..I mentioned this in another thread but couldn't remember Hobb's name.
Phil said he had scouted Frye for two years..they wanted a young QB..they weren't going to select one in the first two rounds, and they knew he was a project.
He said he went against his board for one of the few times..


Funny thing is we often hear about Chud trying to "adapt the offense to the strengths of their players", but when it came to Frye, this criteria did not apply.
U really can't say that at all..we just had ONE GAME.
In preseason they were working on it and I heard nor saw anything that implied the offensive scheme was not designed for Frye to take advantage of.

What was hinted on was Anderson being able to run this scheme and make those throws.
If the playbook was scaled back for Frye WHAT strength are you talking about?
Rollout, short passes?
Thats about it because on those deeper outs/slants Frye can't make those throws.

We could have had Dan Marino the last three years and the record would only be slightly better if at all,,

But having said that, it appears now that at least in the brain trusts eyes, they blew it picking Frye.,,,,

Quote:

---

I doubt there's one person on the board that would believe this team is one QB away from being good

---

.....that guy would be me,.....at least MUCH improved.

I think realistically all we can expect right now is to be competetive,....and build from there.

Guys... A little northwest slant on the Seacocks/Frye trade...

The Seasparrows have wanted and been high on Frye since college. The had him on their board to draft, C-Town took him before they did...

The Fishhawks and Holmgren believe that CF can develop into a quality WCO type NFL QB... They believe that with the proper time, enviornment, experience and coaching that CF could be the replacement for MH... I read this and watched this on FSNW...

Here is one article from the Seattle area... A recent article from the Seahawks site of media archives...

Last updated September 12, 2007 11:56 p.m. PT

New QB getting crash course in Seahawks' lexicon
By CLARE FARNSWORTH
P-I REPORTER

KIRKLAND -- More than getting used to his new teammates and coaches, or even the unsettling situation of going from Sunday starter to Wednesday scout-team quarterback, Charlie Frye's biggest adjustment in his first day as a member of the Seahawks was learning a new language.

Welcome to the verbiage that comes with communicating in coach Mike Holmgren's hybrid of the West Coast offense.

"We're learning the new language first," quarterbacks coach Jim Zorn said after helping Frye through his first practice and first day. "It's hard to know what he's going to be able to do early until he learns the language that we speak."

For now, Zorn and the quarterback who was acquired in a trade with the Cleveland Browns on Tuesday will communicate in a form of football shorthand. Zorn knows the language of the Browns' offense from his days as the quarterbacks coach with the Detroit Lions.

What Frye knew as a deep-six route in Cleveland is a dig route with the Seahawks. What he learned as an over-sync with the Browns is a 57-front in Seattle.

"That's how we'll talk in the beginning," Zorn said. "So we'll transfer what he did know to what he's going to know."

Frye wasn't a complete stranger in a completely strange land.

The cubicle of free safety Brian Russell is just two down from Frye's in the locker room, and they were friends and golfing buddies the past two seasons in Cleveland.

"Charlie is a great guy," said Russell, who signed with the Seahawks in free agency. "You love his work ethic. He's tough as nails. He's a guy you like to line up with. He practices hard. Works hard."

Frye also got a couple of phone calls from Trent Dilfer on Wednesday morning. Dilfer, now the backup quarterback in San Francisco, was the Browns' starter in 2005, the year Frye was selected in the third round of the draft. Dilfer, of course, also spent four seasons with the Seahawks before orchestrating his trade to the Browns.

"Trent thinks this is going to be a great situation for me, and that's a guy I really look up to," Frye said. "That being said, I'm really excited about the situation I'm in."

Zorn also can relate to the mental adjustment Frye is being forced to make. Zorn lost his starting job with the Seahawks midway through the 1983 season and then was released in 1984.

"Going from being a starter to our No. 3, he has to adjust," Zorn said. "I think it will be humbling for him at first. I know it is. As he works though the emotion and gets into our program, hopefully he'll find it rewarding.

"The worst part is going from being a starter to a backup -- somebody playing your position."

Everyone -- from Holmgren, to Zorn, to club president Tim Ruskell -- also reiterated that Frye is not the quarterback the club has been seeking who will allow backup Seneca Wallace to be used as a situational receiver, runner and punt returner. Not yet, anyway.

"Now let's all just slow down here just a little bit on that one," Holmgren said. "Maybe we are in that situation, but it won't be for a while. It will not be for a while. So we just have to wait just a little bit with that."

While it might sound crazy, going from being the starter with the Browns to a backup with the Seahawks is probably an improved situation for Frye. In Cleveland, he was rushed into the starting role before he was ready. This season, he was babysitting the position until first-round draft choice Brady Quinn was ready to step in.

Those in Cleveland said you could read the stress of the situation in Frye's body language.

Frye didn't go there on his first day with his new team, opting to spin everything forward and in a positive direction.

"When you put a lot of time into something and really dedicate yourself to something, you want to see the other side of it," he said. "But this the NFL. Change happens all the time. You just have to take advantage of your opportunities. This is a great opportunity for me and I'm definitely going to take advantage of it."

But there were others to utter what Frye must have been thinking.

"For this to happen so fast, I'm sure it's awkward and crazy," Russell said. "But that's the NFL, and this is probably a blessing in disguise for him.

"For him, this is a great opportunity. Charlie has been with a young group of quarterbacks. From that perspective, it's always good to have a guy like Matt Hasselbeck and a guy like Seneca Wallace who can kind of share knowledge."

Not to mention their mastery of the new language Frye is playing catch-up to learn.

Good luck CF... You're in a better place right now.

Just a general reply here ......

Not to rain an anyone's parade RE: Charlie Frye and how "QB guru" Mike Holmgrem will surely develop him into the great QB he should have been here ....... but the Seahawks had David Greene as their 3rd string QB until the final cutdown. He was also drafted in the 3rd round, a dozen or so picks after Frye went to the Browns.

The Seahawks decided that he hadn't developed enough, and released him. Here is a 3rd round QB ..... that Holmgren, the amazing developer of QBs, didn't develop.

Greene was the all time winningest QB in NCAA history, and broke some guy named Peyton Manning's SEC career passing record. He wasn't some schlub of a QB brought in as an undrafted free agent.

Frye will have to do all of the things regarding the mental side of the game that he didn't do here, and that Greene failed to do there, to remain in Seattle, even as a backup.

I think Frye can do it. I just think that here, we rushed him in to early---and put him in a situation where a rookie QB is extremely unlikely to succeed. We SHOULD have developed him under Dilfer. Instead, we threw him into the fire, changed up his OC, traded away his mentor, and put him behind a horrible offensive line. Not exactly a great way to develop a young QB.

We better take our time with BQ, and keep our current pieces in place to keep him comfortable. Keep Dorsey as the mentor---keep the same OC, and continue building a core of talent around him.

Yes, he will have to do all those things....like have WRs run the right routes, the OL block well, have a running back be able to actually run, and on and on and on.

Frye had his own problems, to be sure, but he also wasn't helped with what was around him and lack of a chance to develop. Just being with a team that has those established players will give him the best opportunity to focus on HIS shortcomings without being pounded into the turf by those of others.