DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Derrick Willies

I was talking more about how the same receivers look better with a legit QB.

Your apparent need to try to contradict me at every opportunity is quite something.

WRs can better show us what they've got now. They've seemingly all made big plays. Consistency is the key.

I think it can work both ways. A great WR can make an average QB look better and a great QB can make an average WR look better.

See Matt Ryan and Tom Brady for examples

J/c

Maybe Blake Jackson makes it back here at some point. He’ll be given a chance somewhere I believe

I am as well. I see Terrell Owens in him. Both are pretty much the same size a build..though Owens was Josh Gordon ripped....not sure about Willies. Owens was ripped like that when he went to school here in Chattanooga.

If Willes can be half as good as TO we have a solid top end #2 receiver in the guy.

A year ago last weekend my son Chris and I went to TO's HOF induction and Jacket presentation at UTC. The arena holds 20,000 people with floor seating for concerts. There were probably 15-16,000 there. Not may empty seats at the top of the arena. Way cool.

I am also hopeful for Damion Ratley. I think he is a pretty good player. Also for selfish reasons.

I am a walker. On Saturdays I usually go for a 6-7 mile walk along the river. When I am done and cleaned up, I am ready to eat some lunch, so I rotate between various restaurants. One Saturday last March it was still cool so I wore my Browns sweatshirt in to a new place that opened maybe a week or two before, Aubrys.

The bartender saw the shirt and she said that her cousin plays for the Browns. Damion Ratley. So, I root for the kid, and his cousin. Nice girl.

He's been injured and coaches haven't seen him on the field for many days/weeks. Not sure what his timetable is for returning, but he would have to come back and ball lights out in preseason and the remainder of practices to get his chance with us. I think his best case scenario is to be picked up by another team whose scout has had their eyes on him.

I get that but there is still time. The best film come from the games ahead over the next few weeks..

I told his cousin I felt bad he was hurt and it might be a tough go.....but I can still for for the kid , no?

I do understand what you are saying. I know that as well. We might have to keep a 6th receiver.....not out of the question. Six is a fairly normal WR depth chart.

I rarely speak to you.

However, the perception of the WR group is because they are better than what they were before Dorsey arrived.

Who did we have?

Britt.........gone
Coleman.......gone
R. Louis.......gone
Payton.........gone
Coates........gone

I think the only one remaining is Higgins.

OBJ, Landry, Callaway, Willies, etc were all brought in by Dorsey. Dorsey's group is far more talented than what we had when Sashi was here.

I am going to go out on a limb here and say that if OBJ and Landry were on any other team, the perception would be that that team had good receivers.

That is not a knock on Baker. It's just the truth.

Kind of like the Chicken or the Egg question.?

Receivers need a QB who can get them the ball and the QB needs receivers who can get the ball.

Pretty basic. You can't have one without the other IMO.

No, that isn't what I said.

I said the "perception" of the OBJ and Landry on any team in the league would be that that team had good wide receivers.

Are y'all really going to debate that one, too?

What?


Whatever man. You can't even be talked to....forget it Go argue with someone else.

I'm not arguing your point. I'm more annoyed with the way you chose to express it.

If you'd simply said having better receivers helps, too, you'd have got the same point across.

It just came off unnecessarily combative. Or was using the same structure and tacking the all caps LOL to the end supposed to come off some other way than mocking?

I think the fact that we don't actually speak is part of our issue. It's hard to interpret messages without inflection, tone, and other indicators.

Yes, the receivers have helped Baker to look good. Baker has also done a better job than our recent QBs of giving them opportunities to look good.

Hopefully, Willies keeps taking advantage, and vice versa.

I wasn't bad-mouthing Baker. One could make the argument that he would be good w/out such great WRs. I just didn't think the quote was accurate because OBJ has never even caught a pass from Baker and Landry had his worst statistical year in a number of years w/Baker as his qb. Sashi's WRs sucked. Dorsey's are good. That perception would not change.

And I am not saying you did this intentionally, but there are a lot of posts on here where Baker does nothing wrong and others aren't getting the credit for what they do. For example, last year's OL was ranked second overall by PFF and gave Baker a ton of time to throw when his first read wasn't open and he struggled going through progressions, yet that unit gets bashed at times and people say that Baker made them better. That's hogwash.

I will agree w/you that Baker is often very accurate [sometimes he isn't due to his footwork] and that does indeed help make his receivers better. He does a great job of leading receivers a lot of the time. That's huge!!!!

I just think that our WRs would be thought of highly on any team. They are that good.

Does someone not think our WRs are good?

And Baker did make the OL better. All the great QBs do. It's why offensive lineman don't impact the wins and losses column. It's why a guy like Joe Thomas probably lost 3 times as many games as he won. He just didn't have a QB.

Think Charlie Frye/Derek Anderson.

Having said that, the OL was very good last year and has very good players. But as long as you have at least middle of the road linemen, the QB is always going to make them better. Thats what great QBs do.

And I'm not saying Baker is great, but he had moments of great play last year.

I realize you are a trouble maker, but how did you miss what I responded to. Here it is again.




I replied by stating that OBJ and Landry would be "perceived" as good on any team no matter who the qb is.

Are you really going to argue that point?

Just talking football.

I thought you said there are people who don't think our WRs are good and that it's all Baker. That take would surprise me. I haven't read it and have a hard time believing people would think that since we definitely have a top 5 receiving corps.

I don't see how that is causing trouble.

Baker does have his flaws. Personally, I don't really share the glee I see for his beer chugging. I'm not going to hammer him for it, but athletes are role models whether they like it or not. Plus, it's the middle of training camp.

Sashi's WRs weren't good, but it's hard for me to say they sucked. Some of our QBs had about as much accuracy as Shaq shooting free throws. Some of the WRs were pretty bad.

I agree that OBJ and Landry would look good elsewhere. It's the Hymans, Montgomerys, et al that I'm not sure would look as good with past QBs. Not even necessarily accuracy-wise, but a bit of tunnel vision at times. I think of guys trying to force things to Gordon.

Of course, we did often have our Carlton Mitchells during past camps. I'm not sure I've ever heard so many good things about every single pass catcher on the 90 man roster so consistently, though.

I have no idea what the hell you are even talking about. I provided the quote that I responded to. I provided my reply to that quote. I have no freaking idea why you are confused.

Well, I do........and I don't think you are confused. You are just being you.

That is a fair post.

I want to make this clear. I was NOT bad-mouthing Baker when I first responded to you. I just think our WRs would be "perceived" to be good no matter who their qb was/is. That is not a knock on Baker. I guess the word "perceived" is what set me off. Perhaps you did not intend that word to mean what it actually does. I misspeak all the time on here because I never proofread. I used to, but it's not worth the time anymore due to all the personality crap that dominates this board.

It's an opinion and I am good w/it, but I disagree w/you on Sashi's receivers. How many are still in the league? Coleman is, but he was cut by a couple of other teams after we traded for him. Right? Britt is out of the league, right? Isn't Louis out of the league? What about Payton? He has to be out of the league, right? And those were the top guys.

In my opinion, Sashi's WRs sucked ass. Dorsey's WRs are very, very good. That is not a knock on Baker. It is a shout-out to our WRs.

Why do you make it so easy?

Because it's not a contest for me.

Higgins was one of "Sashi's" receivers, and the "perception" of him has changed. Undoubtedly, he's also improved irrespective of Baker. Would he have improved as much without Baker's confidence in him?

Since the rest aren't here any more it's impossible to know whether they'd look better with Baker. Some possibly would. Others admittedly were not very good.

Some of the receivers we are hearing about now could very well be out of the league soon.

Cleveland is also a much nicer destination for WRs now than when Sashi was here. Dorsey didn't actually draft our top two, so it's not entirely a fair comparison.

I'm not trying to make this another Sashi struggle, though.

I'd much rather enjoy what we've got now than rehash the sordid past.

I'm very happy with what we've got all around.

Learn to relax a little bit. You perceive contests where none exist.

I never made that claim. I debated your claim that the perception of our WRs was inflated due to Baker's accuracy.

Look.........this is yet another dumb ass argument where you are trying to save face and others jump in to support Baker, even though I freaking said I was not bad-mouthing Baker at all. Jesus.............OBJ and Landry were stars before Baker.

Have a good one.

I never said you made the claim and I wasn't trying to argue. That was just me thinking the subject through via text without much reiteration of what you already effectively covered.

I also never mentioned OBJ or Landry with regards to bloated perceptions. I had more the guys fighting for the last couple WR slots in mind when I referenced "our WRs." They'd been the focus of the conversation for most of the thread, Willies and his competition.

Again, not arguing, just trying to clarify intentions.

I understand Rishuz is spinning you up a bit, so no hard feelings on my end.

J/c

It's easy to comment on things in hindsight.

I recall this time last year we were having a similar discussion about how great our WR were. There were high expectations for Gordon and Coleman. We just traded for Landry and we had a young Higgins and a looker in Callaway.

Some analysts were saying we had one of the best if not the best WR corp in the NFL. And 3 of the 5 receivers were here before Dorsey took over.

It's very difficult to pass on or give up on a talent like Gordon. One of Dorsey's most underrated moves is moving on from Gordon. Sashi never could, whether he thought he could turn his career around or if Jimmy was in his ear we may never know, but Gordon was a piece of the puzzle.

I also remember when people were upset we didn't re-sign Pryor.... and how many passes has he caught since he left Cleveland? Hindsight is 20/20.

J/c

Good point (and obvious one) is that our past WR corps have just been horrendous. Our acquisitions and drafting of them was downright awful. I mean, Cribbs became our top threat at one point just out of development and luck. Bowe, Britt .. blah.

It’s sad that the one Sashi draft that got us all of those receiving options is down to just Higgins ... but at least we got that

Perception is a funny thing. Sashi drafted 4 WR and one of them is still here and most likely one of our starting receivers. That's a 25% hit rate on WR. 3 of them are still in the NFL. Honestly, I don't know if that's good or not. Anyone have numbers on that?

Dorsey isn't great at drafting WR either. In fact his legacy is known for taking chances on talented players with character concerns. Hill and Callaway if you will. And just a side note, it appears none of our starting WR, OBJ, Landry, or Higgins were drafted by Dorsey.

A good measuring stick might be to see how DeMarcus Robinson compares in his career to Hollywood Higgins. Higgins has outplayed Robinson to this point in their careers and Dorsey could have drafted Higgins instead of Robinson. Robinson was drafted a full round earlier.

I'm not knocking anything Dorsey, he's done a wonderful job getting us to this point and building this team. We were bad for so long, he knew we would struggle to sign marquis players so he had to draft or trade for them. Ironically, Sashi knew this long before Dorsey arrived.

...

U gotta be doing this just to get at Vers ...

That post right there is the very definition of a sashiette ... hmmm, let me join the club for a second ...

What makes his “hit” % even more amazing is that it was very well known by everyone that was a very bad draft class for WR’s .... so to draft 4 and have them all still in the “NFL” makes it even more amazing ... talk about finding diamonds in the rough ... it’s still talked about amongst the GM’s at the combine til this day ... many of them are still envious over that stroke of genius ...

What a great job by Sashi, I for one am so dang proud of him ... ...

I have some numbers. Jarvis Landry [the guy you criticize all the time] has more catches in one year than each of the four guys have in their career. Making that number even more appalling was the fact that Sashi spent a first round pick on one of those guys.

Yes, perception is a funny thing...

Wow. You guys are the epitome of paranoia. This had nothing to do with Vers or anyone in particular.

I would agree with you that it was a very bad draft class. I'd also say I recall many outlets listing Coleman as the #1 receiver in that class. You aren't going to hit on every pick.

And Landry did it without a great QB as well.

Some players can transcend their QB. Landry and OBJ both look to be in that category.

They did show it in the NFL before they were brought here, so it's not entirely an apples to apples comparison. Still, kudos to Dorsey for getting them here.

I'm eager to see what VG and OBJ do this season with year 2, starter from the jump Baker.

Re: the 1st rounder on Coleman, I remember being pretty much all in on Doctson. It's a shame he jacked up his achilles before his rookie season even started. I wonder if we'll see any of him with Haskins tomorrow.

It had zero to do with paranoia and everything to do with how obtuse your post was ...

BTW ... not positive or that it matters even a little ... i don’t believe Payton was in the NFL last year ... just an FYI ...

Get your last shot in ... this is beyond irrelevant ...

You're right. This is beyond irrelevant, but you and your bestie keep bringing up Sashi. I have no idea what is the obsession you have with him.

Right after I read this post, I went to Cleveland.com and read an article by Pluto on Wylie's statements and as I was reading, had no doubt it would annoy Vers.

Then I thought, we should start a thread titled:
"Things that will annoy Vers"

I'm pretty sure he already started that thread himself, but this isn't really the time or place.

Can we get this thread back to talking about receivers actually on the team? Preferably not the ones that we know are going to make the squad.

I kind of want to see how Willies and Strong compare tomorrow. And see how they and the other young WRs look on special teams. Not really the returning, but the blocking and tackling.

Preseason last year, we were perceived to have one of the top Wide Receiver groups in the NFL. This was with Gordon, Coleman and Landry. Many of the talking heads had that group ranked as better, or at least as good as, any WR group in the AFC. This was with someone other than Baker as the starting QB.

We dumped Gordon and Coleman, as well as the problems that came with them, and added Beckham, developed Calloway and Higgins. We are right back to having the same perception as last year, one of the top WR groups in the AFC. This year's group is probably better, based on the fact that all of the receivers have been good for more than 1 season, without Gordon's suspension baggage hanging over them.

This has nothing to do with Baker, or Tyrod, or Kizer, or Kessler, or Hogan, or Hoyer, or Manziel. This is about the "perceived" talent of the Wide Receiver group.

I think Strong would be 6 as of right now. Of course, that’s assuming he can play STs