DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Offensive Scheme

I've tried to bring this point up many times over the years, but how most folks judge the OL is often related to how long the qb holds the ball whether it be due to recognition or scheme.

Monken called plays for Tampa for much of the year last season. Dirk Koetter took back play calling duties for one game, and they completely fell apart ... so he turned it back over the Monken again.

Dirk Koetter gives play-calling duties back to coordinator
https://sports.yahoo.com/fast-one-game-b...-231624120.html

In that one game, the team scored 3 points .... the only time all season they did so ... or scored in single digits.

If any of that other drivel were true, I don't think that Dorsey would have put his own head on the chopping block by hiring Freddie. Either that or you think that Dorsey is an absolute idiot who had no idea what was going on in his own locker room, and on his own sideline, so he hired the wrong guy, for the wrong reason.

I disagree. Freddie is calling the plays, but this a Monken O.

I agree. I don't know if it is Baker holding the ball or the plays are slow to develop. I take that back...he didn't have a problem holding the ball last year, so there is something about the system that is holding us back. As for the line, I don't think they are playing poorly.

I heard Baker is holding on to the ball for 3+ seconds ... which is too long. I am a bit underwhelmed with the OL in the running game, but with so little running game to judge or get into a rhythm with that's a little tough to know ... but in pass protection I think it is more Baker and the plays than the OL.

despite the 1000 articles coming out of camp that this is freddies offense and actually Monken was struggling getting acclimated....right..

Per Next Gen Stats, Baker owns the third-highest average time-to-throw at 3.07 seconds.

When he throws within 2.5 seconds, Baker's completed 74% of his passes with 2 touchdowns and 1 interceptions. When he exceeds 2.5 seconds, Baker's completed 55% of his passes with 0 touchdowns and 3 interceptions.

The bottom-line: Baker needs to be more decisive, but he's struggling with pre-snap identification and/or post-snap verification.

actually yeah, i do think he hired the wrong guy for the wrong reason. Nothing freddie has done currently or in the past qualifies him to be HC other than his relationship with mayfield. Dorsey took a gamble on FK...Oh btw...FK was Dorseys first HC hire...so its not like he's got a proven track record hiring coaches...players yeah. God forbid someone question the almighty Dorsey. I'm a fan of Dorsey on the personnel side. Jury is still out on the coaching side

Really? Care to share how you know that? I highly doubt Monken would be here if he wasn't running his offense.

We are running the exact same playbook they ran in Tampa. Watch Games 1 and 2, compared to Tampas games last year with Monken.

Then watch our games last year, and compare them to games 1 and 2.

Theres my proof. Where is yours?

You are completely speculating, as am I - but at least I have the eye test and plays to back me up.

Freddie is calling the plays yes, but it seems to be Monkens plays and offense.

I noticed this last year. When Baker's first read was open [especially after Freddie took over,] he was very effective. If that read wasn't open, it looked to me that Baker was too slow going through his progressions. He was/is sometimes confused by what he was seeing.

I did notice that his pre-snap reads really improved as the season progressed.

J/c

I’m not sure who’s calling plays or has the most influence .. all I know is our offense right now looks nothing like what we saw in weeks 8-17 last year. And Baker looks like a shell of himself.
Truthfully, Baker looks like he did during weeks 3–7 last year with Hue when he was regressing ... hesitant, inaccurate, skittish feet, emotionless.

You mean.......under Haley, right?

Yes, Haley was the OC ... and Hue was the HC. Everything falls under the HC, of course.

Dude, could you be anymore dramatic?

It's 2 games.

Let's give it a little time.

j/c

Here's what I do know. A HC isn't paired up with an OC or DC he doesn't approve of. He wouldn't be forced into being paired up with someone whose O scheme is opposed to his own when coaching a team.

So I believe debating whether it's Freddie's scheme or Monken's scheme is more a matter of semantics than substance. I believe that it's a scheme they both want to run or Freddie would never have been paired up with Monken to begin with.

I dont have a big issue with the coaching. Thus far Baker has sucked. It's not scheme or coaching, Baker is missing open guys, holding the ball to long and hasn't been close to what we saw down the stretch.

Blueprint is out and it's up to our young qb to adapt. The quick options are open but he is not pulling the trigger waiting for something better then missing his target.

Coaching has been far from perfect but players are paid to make plays when the opportunity is there.

Let's just see how everyone responds. We arent there yet but we are young and it's a long season.

You could be right, bro. It's a long season and things can change. I just think we are asking Baker to do some things he isn't really good at. I would prefer we scheme to his strengths.

Oo I agree that there are things we can do to help him but man he is missing a lot of easy throws.

I would run 6 OL. Our te position sucks so why even use one. Extra ol on the right side and open up the run game.

In practice make baker work the short game. Teams are playing on their heels against us. Take what's given.

Anyway, I have concerns but have more optimism. Year2 for qbs especially early year 2 is often a struggle. This team unlike most has the potential to be be elite. Use the backs more in the pass game and just work that short to mid game if hey are going to give it.

I suggested using 6 OL as well ... if our 2nd TE sucks anyways, might as well sure up the blocking

Once again, thanks to the ref who moved this thread to the PFF. I said earlier that I wanted to keep an eye on this topic and his flexibility has allowed it.

I think it's becoming increasingly evident that the 11 personnel package and deeper routes are not a great fit for our QB and to a lesser extent--our offensive line.

I did see some 12 and even 13 personnel last night, but we can't run 21 because we don't even have a FB.

I wonder if we will make adjustments? If not, I think our offense will continue to struggle.

Ryan Clark was just talking about Monken being a problem for the Browns because of him having control of the offense as the OC and how are scheme isn't working.

I get that the goal for Baker would be to have to see the whole field instead of half the field. I get that we would want to take advantage of his plus arm and gun-slinger style. I get that we would want to take advantage of our superior talent at WR and an explosive TE.

However, it's become painfully evident that Baker is really struggling w/his post-snap reads of coverages. His decision making has been poor and I think his confusion is adding to accuracy issues.

Thus, I think we should make a roster decision and bring back Charles or someone like him. I think we should go w/more 12 and 13 personnel and bring back some 21 personnel.

We also don't have a TE we can trust to both block and receive.

According to the broadcast, we started Ratley in place of Njoku last night.

This team really needs an adjustment to play-calling, (and schemes) and to somehow find a T and a TE. (and maybe a Guard)

Has Baker thrown a back shoulder throw to anyone this year except Higgins? (before he got hurt?) That was a staple throw.

J/C

It was interesting to listen to Collinsworth basically flabbergasted that Baker is SO BAD when the ball is held for even an instant. It’s so true though. If his first, initial, quick read isn’t there ... we have like a 10% chance of completion

But this wasnt the case last season. Thats what is so frustrating! This offensive scheme isnt the same. Baker clearly doesnt get it, so change the scheme/playcalling!

Agree, I think an H-back or Fullback is the simplest and most straightforward solution to start seeing some immediate changes. Of course, you have to have the right set of plays to go with it.

I am not completely on board with everyone criticizing Baker's reads. I think he is well above par vs most 2nd year QBs. When the camera angle allows us to see the routes, I have been seeing an excessive number of vertical routes with poor spacing between receivers and DBs in good coverage. Against the Rams, we saw Baker bailing from the pocket and throwing it away. If there is nobody open, then this is the right read. Not throwing interceptions kept the Browns in the game against the Rams.

It is on the coaches to install a scheme to create more opportunities, keep defenses guessing, and not expect the 2nd year QB to thread the needle on every throw.

I honestly don't know. I think his accuracy and running from the pocket early are obvious struggles. I thought his accuracy was a little better last night.... reading the overages, I don't know ... he missed wide open check down options game 1 and 2 but last night I didn't see that so much. When I see him holding the ball too long last night - I don't know that I saw open receivers - mostly good D or routes that took too long to develop. I'm not saying he can or can't read coverage post snap - but I am not sure we have enough tape to know. Game 1 and 2 my impression was he was 'always' looking for the deep pass to OBJ which doesn't mean he can't read coverage as much as he was trying to force the ball to his shiny new toy.

There have been open receivers all over the field. I don't really want the focus of this thread to be about criticizing/defending Baker. I would prefer that we keep the focus on the scheme.

Baker is really struggling with post snap progressions this season. Whether that's a function of new personnel, new scheme (which I hate the air raid FYI) or his own struggles, he is holding the ball a whole lot.


As far as the scheme, I hate it, constant shotgun, running out of shotgun with regularity, running out of weak sets. The lack of emphasis on the play action passing game, I hate all of it right now. Very few if any deep shots somehow, how that's possible when we are in shotgun the entire game who the hell knows.

I hate that we threw 4 times 1st and goal, which is another function of the scheme. I hate that when we threw it was to a backup TE and the last play of the game went to Damion friggin Ratley. 4th and 9 draw, I have never in my life seen such a misguided attempt at using your playmakers in the appropriate situations.

J/c

Also, I look at some of our routes ... and I see WAY too many examples of WRs too close to each other ... in some cases, even 3 WRs within 3-4 yards .. that’s just plain dumb

I also noticed this as well. Flood concepts have existed forever but the execution isn't even close, they have 3 WRs within 5-10 yards of each other.

It seems to me that we saw some of the things we were looking for earlier in the game and spread somewhat throughout the game. We saw more quickly ran plays. The run game was being deployed and quick hitting pass plays. When that was being called it seemed we moved the ball pretty well. But then we would revert right back to what we have all seen simply doesn't work.

Now I will say that I agree with those that claim this isn't the Baker we saw last year. It most certainly isn't. It's obvious to me that he isn't comfortable with this new scheme and from the pressure it has created on a consistent basis, who could blame him? Being a young QB, that has a negative impact. I believe building on the scheme from last year and adding to it as we go would have been a far better avenue to move forward with.

However, I won't use that as an excuse for terrible accuracy and escaping the pocket too early. I won't use it as an excuse for him refusing to scramble when there are obvious yards being left on the field when everyone can see that. I will say that throwing the ball away rather than forcing the ball down the field and turning it over is a positive and not a negative.

What I'm seeing is the perfect storm.

I tried to explain before the season began that with a new HC and new coordinators on both sides of the ball things would take time. But even I didn't see how poorly this would begin. And the D seems to have gelled even quicker than I expected. But the O is a disaster when they try to stretch out long plays.

The quick hitters and the run game seemed to be working. I thought Freddie was old school. Old school dictates that, "If it ain't broke don't fix it".

Not only did he do that from last season to this season, he did the same thing last night.

s003apr:

THIS! My coaches in high school and college would have read the riot act to receivers running routes so close together. It amazes me to see this is a routine for the Browns. It doesn't excuse Baker for poor reads, but it could certainly account for indecisive reads.

Wasn't exactly sure where to put this, but according to NEXT GEN STATS, Baker's Completion percentage when throwing in 2.5 seconds or less is 73% and his TD/Int Rate is 3-1. When he holds it for 2.5 seconds or more, his completion percentage is 48% and his TD/Int Rate is 0--4.

That's rather telling.

I saw that as well. I think it's incredible enough on the surface to warrant more detail. Is he seeing more pressure as plays take longer to develop (I would think that answer here is yes). I would imagine that, if he were able to hold the ball longer and not have defenders in his face, his numbers would look better.

That wasn't intended to be a Captain Obvious statement. The longer this goes on, the more it seems like Freddie/Monkin had a very distinct vision for this offense that does not fit some key personnel and that doesn't fit Baker and where he's at right now in his development.

Yep, it seems like square peg in a round hole type thing ... there’s just not much that has made sense to me ... and I’m really not one who’s bashed coaches before on here

I think one of things i noticed is our Oline doesn't get much movement, They end up getting pushed around alot instead of the Oline pushing Dline around to create throwing windows and allowing Baker to slide into different lanes. So no throwing windows and short qb its def. going to make it harder

Do you not see the irony in that OPINION?

All over the field?

The air-raid sucks. Period. We were in shotgun almost every down last night and that is not an exaggeration. We have a really good RB in Chubb and we aren't even trying to establish the run. We have the Ravens next week then the Niners and the Seahawks. It is looking like we will be 1-5 to start out. If Kitchens doesn't get us back to the offense we ran last year where Baker was under center more and we had a good balance of run/pass he isn't going to survive the season. There was absolutely nothing wrong with the offense Kitchens ran last year. He should have added to it instead of scrapping it for the damned air-raid crap.

We can run 21 personel now the same way that we'll run it when Hunt can play, with Chubb in the FB spot. CHubb's pass blocking has looked much better this year and he knows how to run block already.

We were in shotgun because it moves Baker away from the LOS right away. A team can still run out of the shotgun, and in fact, some RBs excel at it.