DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Offensive Scheme PT 2

I don't like this article. Here's why...

1. It completely and totally ignores the fact that Landry is thriving. He was a beast in the Ravens game when/because Odell was shut down, and he even got his in the SF game. Obviously, the offense as a whole looked awful in SF, but it's more getting Baker dialed in to do more damage when defense are selling out to stop OBJ. Ravens did that and got smoked by both Chubb and Landry. We just need to be more consistent.

2. I REALLY don't like that blurb from Baker "opportunity for other guys to make plays". No sir, it's an opportunity for you to deliver the ball to another playmaker that's getting less attention from the defense. Not necessarily a shot at Baker, since these quotes are just little snippets picked out of a longer dialogue.

3. It also gives no mention of Chubb, or really anybody on the offense except for Baker and OBJ.

4. Overall, this article is lazy, and offers no insight other than a rehashed opinion on what may or may not be going on in OBJ's head based on the popular narrative. Everyone is frustrated in that locker room.

Yeah, it was a terrible article. What galls me the most is it's painting OBJ in a negative light despite him not uttering a word and using quotes from Baker to infer that OBJ is a problem for this offense.

There is speculation here on local talk shows about the Pats trading for OBJ although I haven't heard what they would offer for him. Also, Colin Cowherd brought up the same subject on his Tuesday show. I would rather keep him and find better ways to utilize him in our O. I'm sure an innovative OC or HC could find some way to do this. Any other opinions on the subject?

Look at the Roster thread. It's being "discussed" there. LOL

Thanks Vers I didn't see it.

I haven't logged on in awhile so I don't know if these have been posted but here are some recent articles on the offense's struggles (and one podcast):

https://247sports.com/nfl/cleveland-brow...tion-136729182/

https://www.theringer.com/nfl/2019/10/10...-baker-mayfield

http://www.espn.com/espnradio/play?id=27814140

It seems like we are having two major problems:

1. The QB is not making the easy reads and/or there are no easy reads.

2. The offense is not being changed to do things that makes it easier on the QB.

I think that's a good part of it. I'll add what I was thinking about the last 24 hours:

1. Obviously if (most/a lot) of the design of the play is to go deep, take a shot etc - which seems most are in agreement with - two things might be happening:

[A] the OL is simply not good enough consistently. As I heard on the radio yesterday in Charlotte: if Baker gets hit a couple of times waiting for plays to develop, his internal clock is probably going off earlier than normal even when he has a cleaner pocket ... AND, lets be real, we've seen plenty of pressure "immediately". So not only do we have plays that might not be called to the QB's strengths .... they are also hurting the OL.

[-B] If the design is to go deep - then Baker has to hold onto the ball a little longer than usual. This talk of hitting underneath receivers is fine - but in essence what many might be suggesting is to ignore the primary 1st and 2nd target ... don't even wait to see if they get open .... and dump the ball off to the first open option. Either ... Baker waits to see if the play opens up as designed - which means waiting, holding on to the ball and probably getting some pressure - OR - he ignores the primary target and design of the play and simply hits any open option as soon as he sees it? I think there is some issue with either option.

The root cause of the (play calling) problem I see is that we aren't scheming to open up the D. Sort of ties into last year's success.... we schemed to make it easy for Baker. This year we aren't scheming to force the D to tighten up before we go deep/long. We aren't going Run/Short/Run/Short/screens ... and then getting a favorable shift from the safeties or CB's ... we are looking for deep plays regardless of the D ... so much so that we aren't calling for quick slants or short digs when the CB's are playing off 8-10 yards or more.

I'm getting close to thinking Kitchens needs to focus on being the HC and let the OC be the OC.... I don't care what Kitchens says about it not being a problem - game day decisions and coaching says our Rookie HC needs a little less on his plate so he can be better at a reduced responsibility.

Those are excellent points and sort of dovetails with a post YTown recently made stating that we cannot really be sure of the "first read". We can surmise and guess...but we don't know.

I've read enough around the web from guys I respect that Baker is every bit as much the problem as is anyone/anything else...but it's s combination of penalties, playcall, and execution...including Baker's.

I'll add this to that: I'm now reading discussion about Baker's depth in his dropbacks and that he is drifting further back than the OLine is expecting. Is he unconsciously avoiding the pending/likely collapse? Or is he simply getting the dropback wrong?

The OL often times works the defenders behind the QB. This allows the QB to step up in the pocket. When the QB drifts even further back in the pocket, he is entering an area where you can expect defenders will be.

The only point I differ on is that I do not believe that having Monken call the plays will be an improvement. I think this over aggressive style of play calling is largely his influence. It worked well for him in the Big-12 where they do not face great defensive lines. I don't think the problem is playcalling, I think the problem is the playbook, which sucks because it means the entire off-season was a waste for the offense and in order to get better, the offense is going to have to start from scratch.

That is essentially what I am reading as another's opinion of "The Problem". Say the OL is expecting a five step drop and he's gotten six steps back...bad. The other guy's point is that that is distorting the pocket and leaves him vulnerable.

Actually I haven't seen the initial drop as part of the problem. It seems to come after that. The OL is anticipating the initial 3 or 5 step drop. They work the defenders behind where he is supposed to be so there is room to step up in the pocket.

It's when he continues to drift back after his initial drop that creates the real problem from what I see. If you drift back after your initial drop you are moving directly into the area you aren't supposed to be in. An area the OL thinks is safe to move the defenders into. It makes it appear the OL isn't giving you protection when actually they are positioning defenders into an area that your QB shouldn't be in.

If the QB instead moves up on the pocket after his initial drop back, these defenders would be well behind him and give him more time.

Now people can debate the reasons why Baker keeps drifting back and why he keeps rolling right when there is room to step up in the pocket. I can't read his mind so I won't make wild guesses as I've seen some do. But it is a problem.

That's what "he" is alluding to. He adds that Baker doesn't have confidence in the O line - deservedly so at times - and is sensing false pressure at other times when the protection IS there. All that "positioning" or out-of-position-ing is messing with his footwork and the whole offense has been so inconsistent that they have no flow/rhythm...and Baker is a rhythm guy.

As usual with these things, there are numerous issues that need cleaned up. The tough first half of the schedule isn't giving us any favors either.

The schedule certainly isn't helping us with all new coaches.

But it's pretty hard to put the blame on the OL when your QB is holding the ball longer than what he should be. You may wish to take a look at that.

During the Ravens game Baker averaged holding the ball for 2.4 seconds per throw. We saw the results of that. In the four games prior to that, he averaged holding the ball 3.09 seconds per throw. Higher than any other QB during that same time frame. We also saw the results of that.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000001...patrick-mahomes

I understand that the play calling is what many question. And to some extent that may be true. But your QB must have an internal clock at which time he knows he must check the ball down. I'm just not seeing that and the time he has been holding the ball strongly indicates that's the key to his production or lack there of.

I'm not putting the blame on the OL. However, it's easy to see that they too are struggling.

The question is what changed from last year? Baker's holding-onto-the-ball was not an issue last year as a rookie. Why is he doing it now? Why are we running long-developing routes? Why is he missing the checkdown?

I've said this before...Baker could improve 100% from where he is right now and that won't overcome all the other issues. The OL could improve 100% and it'll be for naught if Baker doesn't also improve and trust them. The playcalling can be 100% better and they still have to execute it without piling up crucial penalties.

I wish I knew the answer to that question. I look at each group and each player as to what their responsibilities are. In the Baltimore game I saw Baker delivering the ball on time. Not holding the ball and seeming to be both confident and productive. That was with the exact same OL and the exact same WR's. I'm sure having a good game rushing the ball helped.

But in the other games I just didn't see that same player. If the answer was really as simple as some people seem to think it is I believe it would have been solved by now. But as a QB there are certain things I feel they are expected to do.

Deliver the ball on time. No matter the play or progression of the play, a QB must have an internal clock that tells them when you have to check down. I'm not seeing that. When a QB throws the ball, it's his responsibility and only his responsibility to throw those passes accurately. I'm not seeing that. It's his responsibility to step up in the pocket when it's there. It's his responsibility not to back into the area where he knows the OL is going to be steering defenders into. I'm not seeing those things either.

Now I'm not absolving other players or the coaches of their responsibility either. I'm simply keeping on topic with our QB converstaion.

j/c:

I have been giving this a lot of thought and I don't have any definitive answers. I'll just list some musings:

--Obviously, I thought the offensive scheme was an important topic, as evidenced by me starting the first Offensive Scheme thread.

--I concentrated on us running so much 11 personnel at the beginning of the season and how we ran a lot of 21 and 22 personnel last year after Freddie took over.

--I pointed out that the offense should evolve from beyond the half-read, one-read offense from last year because system qbs are soon figured out and DC's scheme to shut them down once the tape is out there.

--I did not like the hire of Monkens. He's too high-risk, high-reward for this former midwestern coach.

--I think Freddie did adjust. He started running more 12 and 13 personnel. That showed me his adaptable and I think the Baker fans are being much too harsh on Freddie.

--On the other hand, last time I could find the information on this topic, we were running way too much out of 12 and 13 personnel. That is a tendency and DCs can pick-up on that, too.

--I think our OL is getting bashed way too much. Last stat I saw, our OL was third overall in winning personal matchu-ups.

--Last stat I saw, Baker was holding the ball the 3rd longest in the league. He threw it quicker in the Rats game and held it even longer than the first average against SF. Not sure where he ranks now, but it can't be good and the dudes who usually post that info, won't post anything bad about Baker.

--Trent Green said that Freddie was committed to getting the ball out of Baker's hands quicker. I worry that Baker is just doing his own thing. No proof. Just a hunch given the comments from the HOFer Steve Young, Trent Dilfer who runs the nation's best young qb camp, and guys like Dan O, the former qb who now works for ESPN.

--I don't think our OT's are good enough to run 11 personnel the majority of the time. We will want to upgrade next year.

--I am not a huge fan of 11 personnel. I know everyone wants to be the Rams, but they had a great OL. This year, they lost two starters and things are not quite the same. How is Cinci doing? Another 11 Personnel team? They are giving up sacks like crazy. At least Freddie made some adjustments.

--I think there is plenty of blame to go around, and I am not good at assigning percentages, but our offensive woes have several culprits and I will simply list them in order of importance:

*Baker. Holds the ball too long. Too slow at reading covreages. Plays hero ball too often.

*Monken. Not a fan of high risk, high reward offense.

*Freddie. Should have never hired Monken. Coach to your talent.

*OL: They are not great and Baker's problems and our scheme make it a must that have to be great. Put it this way, they are way better than New England's OL. Seattle's. Ram's. 49ers, etc, etc. But, they are not good enough to overcome Baker and our scheme.

Post script: I did not insult one poster. My post was all about football. I will not respond to any personal insults. That does NOT mean that I am conceding those points. It means I am sick of the personality crap. Also, I have no problem w/people who simply disagree w/me and want to talk football. I will discuss all of this w/you guys. I'm just not going to play the personality game.

j/c

Agree with most of that. My only question is when you talk about Monken.. how much involvement do you really think he has? Everything I've heard and read is he's had very little to do with this. If you look at what monken did last year with TB, he had a impressive offense and the top passing offense in the league despite having a bottom 5-10 QB. So maybe he's providing input and FK still doing it his way. Or maybe freddie leaned on him to install and gameplan and its not working

I really don't know and I hope it didn't come across as I was stating it as a fact. I used the word "musings." Well, at least I think I did. LOL

I based that opinion off of us running more 11 personnel in pre-season and at the beginning of the season. I also wonder if there was something to Silver's report about Monken and Freddie having some growing pains in camp.



It is high-risk......high reward. They put up a ton of points, but also took a ton of sacks, put their D in horrible circumstances, took a lot of sacks, etc, etc. Also, Winston is performing better than Baker.

Now, I could be dead wrong. I've just been trying to figure it out. They are opinions and not stating them as fact. Thanks for questioning me w/out insults. That's good football talk and you could be right about Monken.

I think that there are a few reasons that Baker is having trouble finding the check down, when it is available.
Typically, the checkdown is being tightly covered. Since the good defenses are able that we have been facing have been able to get pressure when only rushing 4. So everyone else is in coverage and that makes it pretty easy to take away any underneath stuff. Secondly, once the pass play breaks down, the receivers have to scramble and look for a way to get open, but since this is done on the fly, Baker has no idea where the receivers are going to go, and even less of a clue what the defense is going to do.Since he cannot see over the line, this is a problem, so he needs to scramble out of the pocket in order to prolong the play and see the field better.

We have a short QB and an O-line that is pretty decent at run blocking, but bad at pass protection. The offense that they are trying to run requires great pass blocking and tall QB. It is a bad match.

If they are going to be successful with Baker, then the entire offense needs to be built for a QB whose strengths are accuracy and timing and an O-line thats strength is run blocking. It seems obvious to me that Drew Brees and New Orleans have given them the blueprint for how to be successful with a short QB with not great speed.They just need to follow it.

Might be a stupid question but... is it known what Freddie's "way" is? What is his core offensive scheme or philosophy?

I am not saying this in a mean way, but I think the checkdowns are open many times. I also think some of the other reads are open. And one more thing, I believe our OL is better at pass blocking than run blocking. Just differing perspectives.

I think that is a good question. I'm not sure if it's ever been answered.

I have 2 questions about Freddies offensive scheme or lack of,
It seems Freddie is a lot like Hue in that he would rather throw the ball and gets too cute in his play calling.
What are we going to do when Hunt becomes eligable? We don't run Chubb enough now.
With OBJ and Landry on the field why do we keep thrown to our below average TEs and Calloway when we are down near the goal line?

Good observations.

The gimmickry we are so fond of running is one of the very troubling aspects of Freddy's play calling to me. I mentioned it last week in the post-game thread, the dramatic difference between Cleveland Gadget first play, and San Francisco's run off tackle first play. Sort of sets the tone for the rest of the game. It's just one more reason why my hunch, is that it's the play-calling more than Baker freelancing and holding the ball too long just because.

I do feel Freddie needs to reel in Baker, OBJ, Miles, Landry and Randle and put a muzzle on them as well as himself.
I have said this since the preseason that we need to run the ball more and use more play action. Let the game come to OBJ.
Also get a dam fullback and some TEs that can block.
Watching Sanfrancisco put on a clinic with 3 backs who were undrafted and WRs who were not as talented as ours should open some eyes.
SF did have a great all around TE and a good fullback. Garopplo isn't a top ten QB but scheme and playcalling are play to his strengths.
It seem in todays NFL it's all about ME and look at ME. That goes for coaches as well as players. The Browns have too many of these and Freddie needs to get control of this as well as himself.
Stop talking and start performing.

My preference as well.

ditto

Hunt comes back then run a power I using Chub in the FB role. Run all over everyone.

problem will be that when he comes back we could be 2-7

Even though I'm not as impressed with Freddie as some, I don't like to pile on either. So my following comment is meant to be more constructive.

What if Freddie doesn't actually know the answer to that question either? I think he probably can articulate to the powers that be what he wantsit to be, but maybe he's trying to be something that he's not. And I don't mean Head Coach.

Since he took over play calling last year, when this team is on... it is friggin ON!

And when we are ON, what does our offense look like? It's not exotic. And even though we sprinkle in some gadget plays, I'd say it runs closer to "basic". So let's embrace that simplicity. We have the talent to challenge other teams.

I agree with your assessment that Baker needs to become more than a 1 read QB. But I think the mistake they may be making is trying to get him past that sooner than he needs to be. I think putting Baker in positions to succeed, even if its a simpler offense gives him more opportunity to learn other ways to succeed.

I don't know man, I just hate seeing our team come out with the obvious solution then come out the following week with a totally different plan hoping that'll work.

I've been thinking about this for a bit. I think it's too early to draw any conclusions, but it might be good to chew on a few things.

I looked up who Freddie has coached for. He's worked under some big names like Parcells and Saban. But according to this article, his biggest coaching influence was Bruce Arians. https://www.sportingnews.com/us/nfl/news...o91w3wft7mnu322

I think most of us know about BA, but here is an article about him that was written when he took over in Tampa. https://thepewterplank.com/2019/01/12/buccaneers-what-to-expect-from-bruce-arians-offense/

For those that don't want to take the time to read it, I will provide a few takeaways:

--Runs a lot of vertical routes

--Takes a lot of shots down the field

--Plays take time to develop

--Utilizes quirky formations

--Puts a lot of pressure on the defense because they have to respect the deep passes

--Runs a lot of deep post routes and double-moves on the outside. The words "quite extraordinary" were used

--Has a knack of calling the right play at the right time.


What was not said in that article was that BA does not favor max-protection. Obviously, that puts a lot of pressure on the OL. It also means that your qb better process information quickly. Those two items are the reason I started the Offensive Scheme thread.

Now, I realize that a lot of people want to draw conclusions immediately and not give adequate time for things to evolve, so I will say that Freddie has been using more 12 and 13 Personnel after he realized that protection was a problem and that his qb was not processing things quickly.

I really didn't have a problem w/our "scheme" yesterday, but some of the specific play calls, the clock management, and in-game decisions are another story for a different thread.
--

We don't even run when its working, we don't run to protect the lead...

We don't run when our RB is the best player in the field...

This is Hue part 2 or something...

I think we're doing an 'ok' job of utilizing Chubb. His lowest # of carries was 16 vs SF and 17 vs Tenn, and I think we can figure out why.

Otherwise, he's logging 20+ carries each game. That's an ok number.
If you're arguing when we're handing him the ball, I'd probably be more inclined to agree with you.

Considering that he's almost the only RB we have been using, and that our QB is the worst in the league right now...

No.. I'm Ok with the way we have been using Chubb, but I'm not OK in running so little,specially because its one of the few things working.

... we also pass to Chubb a couple times each game...

I'm not going back and looking it up, but he seems to see 2-4 passes per game.


I think it's lazy to just say, "this guy is effective, we should give it to him more". This thinking would lead us to being more predictable and would wear down Chubb.
The better argument (imo) is how/when we're using Chubb. I also don't understand how we run so little inside the 5 yard line. The one time I remember Chubb getting the ball was yesterday on his TD that was called back because we wanted to review the previous play. He walked into the EZ practically untouched. Also, we can be predictable, at times, as to when we're running/passing.


Tangent: I've learned more about the X's and O's of football in the past couple months than... I don't even know. And to that I say, thanks for nothing. It is so much more frustrating watching these games now. I miss watching in ignorance. :-p

Apparently kitchens has no problems being predictable with Baker, and he is stinking....

In my mind Kitchens has only 2 options right now:

1) Lean on the running game and protect Baker until the guy can get his act together
2) Bench Baker, yes he has been that bad.

Good post and LOL. I really did like your point about when we are running Chubb and when we are not. There were times where that was very evident yesterday.

For the record:

--Benching Baker has nothing to do w/offensive scheme and it would be dumb. He has to play.

--Chubb is second in the league in both rushing yards and rushing attempts.

--I thought my previous post might draw more attention because I think there is some useful background knowledge in there about Freddie and his scheme.

I think Chubb's touches are fine up to this point. He's averaging 19 rushing attempts/game and takes on 13% of the passing target share. Not to mention the guy is running a route on 40% of passing plays. He is involved in the offensive gameplan in a very significant way. Getting more carries, I agree with you, might not be the insta-fix to the offense's efficiency.