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ok... Do you have the time to answer the question I posed you and Daman? And for the record NRTU, RAC seems like an AWESOME guy... He really does and it is EASY to see how the players can like a cut and dry person like he portrays... I TRULY want to see success with this team and RAC and going out on a limb here, I think even Pitt would agree with that statement...  But seriously Coach, what does he do ON GAMEDAY that makes you feel "he is the guy?" I think you of all people here on the board should be able to make a non-biased opinion on this due to your current profession.. BTW, I hope your boy gets better for your game this weekend and good luck.. 
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Thanks for the kind thoughts. We are getting ready to go to practice in a little while and he is practicing tonight, but it's just shells and helmets so we'll see.
I see RAC progressing on gameday decisions. I see half time adjustments being made. I see players progressing. I see players ready to play and believing in themselves, their teammates, and the coaches.
I'm like Damon, I don't know for sure if he IS head coaching material, but I honestly can't judge him with the lack of talent that was on the team the last two years.
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Fair enough and thanks for taking the time... I guess we agree to disagree... My seed of doubt gets further re-enforced when I look at other teams in the SAM Etype of situation... Nolan at SF, Sean Payton of last year, McCarthy with his system in place a few years and let's not forget Kubiak and what he is doing with the Texans... This HAS to be the year that RAC steps forward because looking at the short list of up and coming HC's, NONE of them are on the hot seat and HALF of them had the same amount of talent (or lack therof) to begin their tenure just has RAC has... THIS is his year to turn it around and IF he does, I will HAPPILY eat a BUFFET of RAC crow and will even pass a plate of it and napkin to Pitt...
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Yeah DS,,, that makes sense,,, See the difference is that you aren't making any wild azz claims... Based on your comments you DO understand the talent or lack there of issue..
As for playing up for a game,,, getting the team to play above thier heads,, yeah, there may be some truth to that. But again, it's subjective,
To me or rather for me, it comes back round to talent,,,,,, Always has,, probably always will,, At least to some degree,,
Chris Palmer,, towards the end of his second year, it was pretty clear he lost the team... Remember the runaway train comment... he was lost,,, I liked Palmer and I thought he got a really raw deal and had little or NO support..
So there was reason to think that if he got support, maybe he could turn the ship around.. but he lost it,, he lost the team and that's something I don't think a coach comes back from,,,
Butch Davis came in as the white knight,. he was going to save the franchise adn for a while,, it looked as if he was for real,, The team looked good in his first year, better in his second.. Changes were made,, Al Lerner died, Randy took over, Policy left, and that meant that there was nobody else to be the real GM but Butch,,,, HUGE mistake as it turns out,
CAP problems all over the place caused by gambling the future of the team for a WIN NOW attitude... it worked too,, for a year. Then Puff, it was gone in a flash..
Butch loses the team and resigns (as if).. the team falls completely apart,,
Mistakes have been made,, and that's why RAC and Savage are here.. and I think that if we focus too hard on what happens today, if may cause the team management to make decisions that won't allow for a dynasty to be built later,,
JMO, but I happen to think that Savage and RAC are on the right track,, but unless they get to finish it, we will never know..
I remember when the this regime came in,, lots of folks were talking about how no matter what, we have to let this regime carry out thier ENTIRE plan,.
to me that means that NO MATTER WHAT, Stay the course...
Again, it's just my opinion,,,
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Damon , I'll pose this question to you.
I'm sure you will try to hit it as close to it as you can.
The better to avg teams, what is the avg turnover from year to year ?
The reason I ask, is from year one RAC to year two RAC I believe we turned over something like 22 players.
From year two RAC to year three RAC we turned over something like 15 players.
Wouldn't that be somewhat high comparing to other teams ?
Thus an answer as to why we faired worse in year two than year one.
22 players is almost 1/2 the team,what team could recoil from that kind of turnover ?
Year three is still up for grabs.
I really think we will see improvement in the wins this year.
I'll be more concerned with RAC at the end of this year than the past years, if there isn't an improvement in wins.
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so you're right, being liked by your players doesn't make you a good coach, it just makes you better than a similar coach who is not liked.
So if you're a GOOD coach,it makes you a little better. And if you're a bad coach,it makes you a little "less bad"? I can agree with that.
I do work better for guys I like. But I've also seen guys I liked and worked hard for that simply had poor business plans. I've also worked for guys I didn't like (on a professional level) that were VERY good and successfull businessmen.Wheather I liked them or not did not change their ability to be good and successfull at their profession.
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Secondly,if you think that D was "prepared and pumped up enough to win a division game" I strongly disagree with that premise. ANY D who gives up 45 points is NOT "pumped up and prepared" IMO
This is what ticks me off about arguing with you, you say that... and then this...
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Now,I will agree that KW2 and BE looked VERY game ready! Now how much of that was Chud and how much of it was RAC I can't say one way or the other. As you said yourself,"I'm not in Berea and I'm not in the locker room" so I don't know.
Something you view as a negative goes on RAC, something you view as a positive is all wishy washy about maybe it's the coordinators that are responsible for that.. I don't know.... geesh, I just can't tell you if RAC had anything to do with that or not... but if something was BAD... then no doubt, it's all on RAC. That's called a double standard Pit and it's one of the things that makes these discussion so damn difficult.
That's fine DC,you can see it that way if you wish. But the fact remains that RAC decided to run the 3/4. It was his decision to retool the D to fit that scheme. This is their third year in the same system under the same DC. I don't see that as being conjecture. It could be that Granthom is the source of the problem. Yes,it could be the DC,not RAC. But what will have to happen if it IS Granthom?
Will Phil have to step in and make the call again before RAC addresses the problem as he did with Mo?
And it's a funny thing DC. You yourself said that you don't know what goes on in Berea. I said the same thing. The only difference is,you don't like the context I used in my example in saying the exact same thing. I know this team hasn't done very well under the previous OC and I didn't see some "drastic one week change" that made such a "one week reversal" before now. So,no,just like you,I'm not sure if it was RAC or Chud that made such an impact. .Or are you telling me that you DO know which one made such a difference?
By your logic,our O stunk it up last year because of Mo and I agree. However,had RAC nixed Mo at the end of season one,we very well could be one year ahead in having a good offensive scheme in place.. Since Phil brought Chud in here and if everything turns on a dime,you won't give Chud any credit for it? You will credit RAC with success? How is that any different from what you said I was doing?
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Maybe the defense wasn't pumped up and prepared because Grantham failed.....
Could be. If so I guess it would be the head coaches job to handle that situation wouldn't it? I mean RAC is a former defensive guru,is he not? I mean he's the guy responsible for bringing in the 3/4 and retooling the D isn't he?
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I have said this before but you may have missed it. Up untill this year,I've either went to Taggerts or The Springs (BB bar in Springborough OH)
When you're sitting in a bar and everyday Joes like myself can tell you eight out of ten times what play is going to be ran,there's something terribly wrong. And that's EXACTLY what was happenning! I'm sure if a bunch of guys in a bar can predict our playcalling,that oposing NFL DC's aren't going to have much trouble.
Up until this year there is a lot of truth to that.. Mo was awful.
Wasn't it you just earlier in this post accusing me of throwing all the guilt on one party? Point being,I don't see your statement here as doing anything but the exact thing you stated I was doing.
But I do agree with you that Mo was awfull.
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And nothing changed at half time. We did just as well predicting the playcalling in the second half because it was exactly the same as the first half. Now you can take that for what it's worth to you. But like I said,the longer the game went on,the more most of them drank.
Again, Mo sucked... OL was horrible... QB play was erratic and often detrimental... what did you expect to happen Pit... run all the plays that don't work in the first half, then go in and adjust to the ones that do work? If the players aren't making plays, plays don't work... adjust all you want.
You're getting very close to the point I was trying to make. Not ALL the way there,but almost.
I have no qualms in saying that our talent was deficiant to many of our oponents. That's not an issue with me. But yes,if your game plan is failing for any reason and your oponent finds your O SO predictable they pretty well know the plays before they're called?
YES! You change the game plan and the play calls. See,one thing I'm sure we DO agree on is that RAC can't go out on the field and play the game FOR the team. I know this and you know this.
The only thing RAC can do,is work with the things "he can control". So yes,if the oposing D knows pretty much your every move,you HAVE to make adjustments. Does that mean they'll work? Of course not. Does that mean your team will suddenly execute the plays better? Of course not.
By changing up the plays and making those adjustments,you've done "everything within your power" as a head coach to try to remedy a bad situation. You see,you've gone back to the "So you think they'll suddenly be better" if RAC made those adjustments?
But that isn't the point. The point is,had RAC made such adjustments,it would have been a strong indication that as an NFL head coach,he saw the problem and did everything within his power to rectify it. That's the point. And wheather you agree with that or not I can't say.
But surely you don't feel it's logical for a head coach not to at least ATTEMPT to make adjustments when he sees these situations can you?
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the actual point difference from 2005 to 2006 was that we gave up about 3 more points per game....
My point wasn't the "points per game we gave up" but how much more competative we were per game overall. That's what I'm looking for DC. Some consistancy and to be competative week in and week out. I know we'll have an "occasional stumble" but we shouldn't be seeing games like the Pitt. game in year three. That's just not acceptable at any level IMO
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And if you look at the Indy,G.Bay and last Rats game,it didn't seem to depend on the "quality of our oponents" as to wheather we looked competative on a fairly regular basis.
The Packers were 4-12 that year and the Rats were 6-10, both ranked down in the 20s for points scored....
Point taken. But do we not expect some type of consistant growth that is tangible in year three under the same DC and the same D scheme as we did in year one? Is that not reasonable to expect?
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It's about improving,getting better and consistancy. Not W's a L's. And we seemed "fairly consistant" in the beginning. Why so many excuses from others that we shouldn't be now?
We should be.... but for this season, I'm not ready to jump ship after 2 games.
I guess maybe you could consider my outlook as "jumping ship". But in my view,"The Browns" are the ship and the head coach is its Captain. And the navigating skills have been shakey at best in our short journey thus far on this 2007 voyage, I haven't seen the Captain make much if any improvements. If I could get a proven Captain with years of seaworthiness under his belt,as a ships mate, I would cerainly feel more comfortable in my travels aboard this ship.
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To this point.. but it's early. The Steelers game started south and kept going on the offensive side and the defensive side...
And not only does that trouble me,but the "team" having to bare the brunt of it in RAC's own words. "We're just not good enough to come back like that." Do you have ANY idea how much that pisses me off? There are a 1000 things he could have said that would have been MUCH more constructive to say. What kind of message does that send to the team THAT early in the season? I mean if they like their coach and believe in him as you say,which I do believe BTW,what message did he just send to them for the rest of this season by saying such a thing?
If you trusted and believed in your coach and he publicly stated you "weren't good enough" to come back from a 17-0 game BEFORE half time? What would you feel and believe the next time you got behind like that? To say something like that to the media is simply not acceptable. It's not professional by any fathom of the imagination IMO
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the Bengals game was a shootout. I don't think we can expect to win shootouts week in and week out, so our D needs to improve... and it will.
I agree with you that at the very least,untill Quinn REALLY develops into a veteran,our chances of winning such shootouts are very slim. Otherwise I won't say you're wrong. Because I certainly hope you're right. But I haven't seen any logical reason to believe it to this juncture.
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I'll bet it's under 25.... under 25 isn't all that great, but considering the 2 game hole they are in, to get to 25, they'll have to play much better to get there... and I bet they will.
Bet as in figuratively?
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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I don't know the answer to that question man,,, I don't know if this helps you at all, but:
There are no QB's, RB's, WR's, left from the prior regimes.
There is one TE, and one Olineman, but he's on suspension..
On Defense there is 1 Dlinemen, 1 LB 1 CB and one Safety left from prior regimes,,
And of course, Dawson is a hold over..,
So, all but 6 were replaced from the last Butch Davis team....
did that help you?
I don't know about you, but If I'm RAC,,, I'd have told Savage,, Get me some talent or I'm outta here...LOL
Last edited by Damanshot; 09/20/07 07:26 PM.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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So, all but 6 were replaced from the last Butch Davis team....
Which was exactly my point about roster instability(to pitt, not you daman). There will be turnover every year. But when you replace an entire roster like Phil did, you will not see consistency right away.
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DS44, I'm not actually sure if he WILL make a good HC. That's not what the problem is.. The problem, as I see it is that some people think they know so much about what makes a good HC and what doesn't.. then try to back it up with bull...
For instance, trying to judge a coach when the talent level isn't there... Now is there anything DUMBER than that..
See,you're not being honest or truthfull. But that was the only next step you had to drop to.
You can't judge him on wins and losses. But you can look at his actions,what he does and doesn't do as indicaters. Indicators I've asked for and you can't provide. Yet you back him blindly. How dumb is that?
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Then, when the NUMBERS don't look good (and ours don't) it's can't possibly be because of the talent of the team,, it can't possibly be the injury bug,,,,According to some on here,,, IT'S all the HC,, Nothing else comes into play,,
More lies? I haven't "looked at the numbers". I've asked you for indicaters you've seen that give cause to show he will make a good head coach
You can't give any so you spam me with lies. So much for character.
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And you know what some of them point to: The Coin Flip! Geez!
Exactly. A total lack of decisiveness and professionalism. And taking it to the media was nothing more than a three ring circus. Quite sad and unprofessional. And to top it off? The guy he PROCLAIMED the WINNER? Lasted one and a half quaters,was pulled and traded! RAC isn't running the show anymore,Phil and Chud are. At least on the O side of the ball thank God.
But the coin flip is one of MANY things I've brought up that when combined (which you refuse to address) have a cumulative effect.
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I wanna see RAC succeed.. Because if he does, that means the team is winning,,, and isn't that what we all want? I mean, seriously,, isn't it?
That's what I want to. Now once again,can you show just indications based on his actions to show cause for optimism in that regard? That's all I've asked for and your replies on the matter are innaccurate and putrid at best.
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But here's the deal, I believe that for the first time in RAC's tenure, he actually has some talent on this team.. I don't know if it's enough to get to the playoffs (I have my doubts) but the team certainly has enough talent to be a 500 ball club.. I belive that.
I do too. But I haven't seen cause to believe he can "through his actions". Not his record,not his numbers. But many of the things I've questioned that you've refused to answer and attacked me in return for. But go ahead. You seem to be trying to develop it into an art form. And I've never been one to stand in the way of a wannabe artist!
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If, as a more talented team, RAC can't get this ship righted,, then, I'll be right up there in front calling for his dismissal...
And in the mean time you'll sidestep questions as to what he's shown to deserve our faith and attack anyone who questions his ability. How noble of you.
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Even if I know that it's gonna cause some problems, I'll still be there hoping for the axe to fall..
BUT NOT NOW!
And I shall smite,lie,attack and generally be derogatory towards anyone who even QUESTIONS his abilities in the mean while!
You go Sir Dreamsalot!
See,all Dawg44 asked for was logical reasons to show that there are indications that RAC will make a good head coach. Just like I did. And he got the same line of crap. Nothing of substance to answer the question he posed. Just another shovel full of manure tossed on the pile. Quite sad really...........
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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Yeah I know man,,, but as you can see by Pits last post he doesn't understand that and now he's calling me a Liar,,,, to me, that means he knows I caught him in full bull mode and now the only thing he can do is call me names...... hey,, isn't that NAME CALLING,,,, Shouldn't he be banned... I want him Banned for name calling,,,, Get him outta here already
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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So, all but 6 were replaced from the last Butch Davis team....
Which was exactly my point about roster instability(to pitt, not you daman). There will be turnover every year. But when you replace an entire roster like Phil did, you will not see consistency right away.
I understand this. You see,I never expected RAC to win a lot of games. While some portray it that way,I can bet you everything there is that NOBODY can quote me saying I expected RAC to "win a lot of games".
I just expected sound coaching decisions. I expect not to have a media circus within our team. I expect him to make half time adjustments that no matter Cach B's assertions,have NOT been made to this poiint..
I mean come on,you watch the games,untill Phil brought Chud in here,couldn't YOU pretty much predict our next play on O the majority of the time?
So I'm fully aware of the tough spot RAC was in. And the raw hand he was dealt. Don't let people fool you into thinking otherwise.
But despite that,your coaching decisions should be sound. As a coach you should be decisive. You should be making half time adjustments when your scheme is not effective.
It's much like the Frye situation. Sure,he didn't have a good supporting cast. Nobody expected him to "win a lot" with his supporting cast. But through it all,you could still judge what HE did as a player. You could still see deficiancies and his strong suits.
That's all I've asked from these guys. Not that he didn't win last year. That's had NOTHING to do with it.
I just asked them for positive signs they can put their fingers on "based upon RAC's work" that give indications he can be a good NFL head coach. And you can see the results.
Not much. They claim he can't make half time adjustments because he didn't have the talent? If everything you did in the first half failed,you HAVE to try something different.
Game preperation. How many times last year did you see our game plan look any different to try to capitalize on our oponents weaknesses?
Yet all they'll do is talk about "the lack of talent" and claim you can't act like,look like or make sound coaching decisions,because you don't have talent.
That's totaly false. Just because you don't have good talent,is no excuse for coaching poorly. If that's the case,now that we have better talent,we'll have to find a coach to use it.
Either that,or maybe someone will eventually show how his coaching has been sound all along and ONLY the talent has held him back.
That's what I'm looking for. Signs HE's been making good,sound coaching decisions. And you can plainly see that nobody is willing to address that.
They'll address everything BUT that!
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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Yeah I know man,,, but as you can see by Pits last post he doesn't understand that and now he's calling me a Liar,,,, to me, that means he knows I caught him in full bull mode and now the only thing he can do is call me names......
All you need to do is address the real issue which you can't or won't do.
What qualities has RAC shown to give you just reason to believe he will be a successfull NFL head coach?
Maybe you can actually SEE the question now?
But that's okay. You've seen it for a while now. At first you ignored it,then you sidestepped it,now it's come to attacks over it. That's fine Bud,its all on you. Haven't you noticed other than a handfull of "the usual suspects" nobody is even willing to justify RAC's decision making and coaching decisions to this juncture? I doubt you have. You're in Damons world. It revolves around hope only without legitimate reasoning to base that hope upon. Sad..........
And in case you can't comprehend English? Saying someone is telling lies about you is not calling them a name. A lot of people lately have a problem telling the difference. Hasn't paid off real well either.
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hey,, isn't that NAME CALLING,,,, Shouldn't he be banned... I want him Banned for name calling,,,, Get him outta here already
Sure is. That's why I don't do it.
Once you get a voice in who stays and who goes around here things really will go to hell. Of course for some reason you really do believe you have some pull and that you're all that and a bag of chips. April Fools!
Of course you can all sit around in your orange tinted glasses singing kumbaya and saying all is right with the world while our team gets ran into the dirt.
Yeah,that's the ticket.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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PIT...Just a general reply to YOU... I might be "Smokin"...But I'm not... Without reading a whole lot over the last 3 or 4 months...I'm getting the feelin' that u think this D just blows ass being in year 3 with Grantham...Is this correct??? If that's the case and you're reamin' Crennel and/or Grantham...I'm not so sure about that... We SUCKED WIND against Pitt game one...BAD...If game 2 was just as bad u gotta believe Crennel was possible GONE MONDAY...To think differently folks is being naive at best...If we got beat as bad as MOST THOUGHT we would...The possiblity of Crennel's head rollin' come Monday was definately there...Agree or not... I'm not ready to chastise Grantham...NOT YET... Game 1...Pitt...Played like POOP ALL OVER... Game 2...Cincy...OUTSTANDING OFFENSE...Teams best prep for this O cause Palmer is a GREAT QB...Weapons galore...Johnson...OL...THEY GOT IT ALL...Doesn't surprise me they put up what they did...What surprises me is WE PUT UP WHAT WE DID... Give it the next 4 games...Oakland...Balt...NE...Miami...Let's see what we can do there before we start jumpin' down Grantham's throat...But I'm right on the edge myself...Cause there's TALENT on this defense...And you've said so yourself...MUCH IS YOUNG... Jones Pool Bodden Wright Jackson Wimbley Peek NOT ONE CAN CLAIM A SEASONED VET STATUS... And notice none of those names are on the front 3???...Wonder why???...But DO NOT DISCREDIT the signing of Robaire...It's ONE piece...And anyone that wants to say at THIRTY he's too old...KMA...Ask Kearse...At 30 he was still a force... Watch these next 4 games...It will tell a tale for the next 10... I STILL SAY this team has the potential to be 10-6...YEP...10-6... Cicny or not...This O did exactly what we hoped they could...The D will do the same...07???...Don't know...08 and beyond???...With the right moves on the DL just as we did on the OL this year...YES...TWO YEAR PLAN...ACCELERATED with the pick up of Quinn... It's time to watch this team folks...IT MAY SURPRISE US...
Go Browns!!!
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So, all but 6 were replaced from the last Butch Davis team....
Which was exactly my point about roster instability(to pitt, not you daman). There will be turnover every year. But when you replace an entire roster like Phil did, you will not see consistency right away.
Thats what I've been trying to say the past 2 seasons and people complaining about RAC and Savage on here.
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I understand this. You see,I never expected RAC to win a lot of games. While some portray it that way,I can bet you everything there is that NOBODY can quote me saying I expected RAC to "win a lot of games".
No you didn't, but you continually bring up that we lost more games in year 2than we did in year 1. 
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I just expected sound coaching decisions. I expect not to have a media circus within our team. I expect him to make half time adjustments that no matter Cach B's assertions,have NOT been made to this poiint..
You can make all the adjustments in the world, but if you don't have the talent it will not matter.
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I mean come on,you watch the games,untill Phil brought Chud in here,couldn't YOU pretty much predict our next play on O the majority of the time?
We are still waiting for the proof that it was Phils choice and not RAC's
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So I'm fully aware of the tough spot RAC was in. And the raw hand he was dealt. Don't let people fool you into thinking otherwise.
Yet you continue to beat him to death in spite of that.
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But despite that,your coaching decisions should be sound. As a coach you should be decisive. You should be making half time adjustments when your scheme is not effective.
And you have no proof that half time adjustments were not made.
You just saw that we continued to get beat by better talent , hence ...no half time adjustments.
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It's much like the Frye situation. Sure,he didn't have a good supporting cast. Nobody expected him to "win a lot" with his supporting cast. But through it all,you could still judge what HE did as a player. You could still see deficiancies and his strong suits.
And what did he do ?
They worked and worked with him, yet he still hung on to the ball too long.
He still ran into sacks.
Problem was , at the time DA wasn't much better.
So as a coach what decision do you make.
Continue to go with the guy that helps you lose, or go with the guy that will also help you lose ?
You see that's the problem with your theory, if one of his linemen sucked last year his only choice was to go to a guy that sucked more.
Talent depth is and has been our problem.
You cant win the Kentucky Derby with a donkey.
You can' make chicken soup out of chicken crap.
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That's all I've asked from these guys. Not that he didn't win last year. That's had NOTHING to do with it.
Then quit using year 1 vs year 2 as a platform.
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I just asked them for positive signs they can put their fingers on "based upon RAC's work" that give indications he can be a good NFL head coach. And you can see the results.
Not much. They claim he can't make half time adjustments because he didn't have the talent? If everything you did in the first half failed,you HAVE to try something different.
Like what ? Run the end around ? They put 8 men in the box because they knew we didn't have a line that could protect the QB for more than a 2 count.
Now we have a line and you see teams will not be able to do that , thus opening up our offense to be able to make adjustments.
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Game preperation. How many times last year did you see our game plan look any different to try to capitalize on our oponents weaknesses?
Over and over and over.
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Yet all they'll do is talk about "the lack of talent" and claim you can't act like,look like or make sound coaching decisions,because you don't have talent.
There was a lack of talent, even you know that.
To some degree there still is a lack of talent, until the coach is allowed to go out and throw a block, or throw a pass, talent will affect your ability to do what you want.
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That's totaly false. Just because you don't have good talent,is no excuse for coaching poorly. If that's the case,now that we have better talent,we'll have to find a coach to use it.
You blame the coach , we blame the talent.
All opinion.
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Either that,or maybe someone will eventually show how his coaching has been sound all along and ONLY the talent has held him back.
That's what I'm looking for. Signs HE's been making good,sound coaching decisions. And you can plainly see that nobody is willing to address that.
They'll address everything BUT that!
Nobody could show or convince you of that, because you have your heart set on Marty.
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Here's the funny part D in D.  The ONLY scenario I've given for getting rid of RAC this year is IF we can get Marty in here at the bye. We both know the chances of that are slim and none. Other than that,I think it would create chaos and be counterproductive to fire him during this season. That's the ONLY scenario I've given under which I would like to see RAC replaced. In return,I asked one pretty basic question. What great NFL head coaching qualities have you seen that leads you to believe that RAC is successfull NFL head coaching material?Yes,I've given reasons why I doubt him. Other than that,if we can't get Marty,I see nothing to be gained by firing RAC during the season. And rather than address that simple question? I've been accused of everything but belonging to the He Man woman haters club and OJ's posse! It's really some pretty funny stuff! Everybody backs him but they don't kow why! I haven't "given up" on us getting somewhat better this year to a degree. But I have serious doubts that RAC is the guy that has the coaching ability to get us to the level we want to be in the long haul. Of course I should be horse whipped and tarred and feathered for that. Just ask some of the guys responding to this thread!
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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Pitt, your questions been answered dozens of times. But you either twist into a negative or call it an excuse.
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You can make all the adjustments in the world, but if you don't have the talent it will not matter.
So that means that as a coach you should just give up and not TRY to make any adjustments? See,that's my point. A coach needs to make the best decisions he can and do his utmost to put his team in the "best position he can to win". That is basic coaching. By your assertion it's "Oh well,we can't win anyway,no reason for me to try and make any adjustments." I just don't understand that logic.
You have to try to "coach to win". Wheather you have great talent or not should not influence the lack of proper coaching techiques IMO
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We are still waiting for the proof that it was Phils choice and not RAC's
No,you're still waiting for it.
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Yet you continue to beat him to death in spite of that.
Not at all. Are you reading these threads? My issue is with the lack of game planning for individual oponents,lack of half time adjustments and such that simply indicate poor coaching IMO
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And you have no proof that half time adjustments were not made.
You just saw that we continued to get beat by better talent , hence ...no half time adjustments.
Buddy,if you haven't been watching the Browns for the last two years,I can't help you. Because if you have,YOU could have called our next play the vast majority of the time. Hell,I've watched drunks at the bar do it so I'm sure you could too. You know that as well as I do.
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And what did he do ?
They worked and worked with him, yet he still hung on to the ball too long.
He still ran into sacks.
And IMO that's exactly what we've seen from RAC. No growth as a head coach from a purely coaching standpoint. Nothing to do with the talent level. Nothing to do with W's and L's. Just his coaching abilities and judgement as an NFL head coach.
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Problem was , at the time DA wasn't much better.
So as a coach what decision do you make.
Continue to go with the guy that helps you lose, or go with the guy that will also help you lose ?
You weigh your options,choose the lesser of the two evils and get to work. Aren't such decisions what a head coach gets paid to make?
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You see that's the problem with your theory, if one of his linemen sucked last year his only choice was to go to a guy that sucked more.
Talent depth is and has been our problem.
You cant win the Kentucky Derby with a donkey.
You can' make chicken soup out of chicken crap.
See,now you're back to why we couldn't win and the talent aspect. But yet again for the umpteenth time,how is that at all relivant to game planning for your oponent,making half time adjustments and your general decision making?
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Then quit using year 1 vs year 2 as a platform.
So if it's asked in a manner that "suits you" you'll answer it?
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Like what ? Run the end around ? They put 8 men in the box because they knew we didn't have a line that could protect the QB for more than a 2 count.
Maybe a set of quick dump off plays,more screens and short to intermediate quick passes to loosen up that "8 men in the box" scenario? That would have been something refreshing last year.
At least worth a try as SOMETHING to help. But nah,why bother? We didn't have any talent,so there's no sense in trying something to help,right?
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Now we have a line and you see teams will not be able to do that , thus opening up our offense to be able to make adjustments.
Oh I see. Wait untill all of the talent is in place and THEN actually try to make good coaching moves. But heaven forbid we try to make adjustments before that time. That sounds like extremly flawed logic IMO
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Over and over and over.
Exactly.
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There was a lack of talent, even you know that.
To some degree there still is a lack of talent, until the coach is allowed to go out and throw a block, or throw a pass, talent will affect your ability to do what you want.
But it does not effect your ability to TRY to mix things up a bit to help a sad situation as a head coach,right? That's the funny thing,you act as if RAC shouldn't have even TRIED to mix up the playalling or do his best untill he got the proper talent.
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You blame the coach , we blame the talent.
All opinion.
You can blame the lack of talent for losing games all you want. But if you're trying to blame the lack of talent for poor coaching choices that simply doesn't fly.
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Nobody could show or convince you of that, because you have your heart set on Marty.
Nobody has tried. They simply say he couldn't win without the talent. And that's true. But why the lack of mixing up the playcalling? Why our O was so predictable? Why we kept running the exact same plays repeatidly for four quarters without at LEAST trying to change it up to catch oposing D's off gaurd?
Nope. Nobody has tried.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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Pitt, your questions been answered dozens of times. But you either twist into a negative or call it an excuse.
Excuse me?
What was answered?
He can't win without talent?
My question didn't pertain to "winning". It was about "head coaching qualities".
His players like him?
Please,if you've seen reasons given that show Legitimate reasons that RAC has shown that you can pinpoint that indicate he has successfull NFL head coaching qualities please fill me in.
I'll be glad to listen to them.
Or do you feel "because his players like him" shows quality coaching?
Do you feel "because he didn't have the talent" is a legitimate reason to not properly game plan and make half time adjustments?
Please let me know just what "great coaching qualities" that have been given that I missed on this thread.
Please,a little substance this time. Some "one liner" that in no way addresses the question doesn't seem quite appropriate.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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Legitimate reasons that RAC has shown that you can pinpoint that indicate he has successfull NFL head coaching qualities
This question has been answered. Like i said, you choose to twist the answers into something negative because you refuse to give RAC any credibility what so ever. Your agenda is clear pitt. You hate Rac, you want him gone. You will not acknowledge any positives. As DC pointed out, when something good happens you give credit to the OC and DC, when something bad happens, you credit RAC.
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I applaud your efforts Pitt but if they don't "get it" in a 6 pg. thread, they never will... It will be just like the Mo situation last year where all of the "continuity" side swore he was the answer, made excuses etc. etc. Mo was "supported" in the media BY the front office until the day he got the ax. If Memory serves me correctly, this ONLY happened after a meeting from HAC's boss so all signs point to Romeo's hands being tied on firing his friend... This is also the same group that thought Frye was the answer and why? NOT because of what they saw on Sunday but because of the fact that HAC said we can win with Charlie just as Phil mentioned to build the team around him and not through him... Yes, Charlie had the support of the F.O. up until the day he was traded... I am not going to throw it in their faces all over the board IF HAC sees the same fate but sooner or later, you have to look at the RESULTS rather than "the spin." I do applaud their honesty though... Takes alot to support someone to the end and not have your own opinion as to why... 
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Other than that,if we can't get Marty,I see nothing to be gained by firing RAC during the season.
My feelings on RAC are pretty-well known by those that know me, so I see no need to go there again.
Having said that, there are a couple of reasons why firing RAC during the season would make decent sense.
Again, I'm not advocating it, simply offering a couple of scenarios that make it viable.
The first is if he falls into a situation where the players have completely stopped playing for him. When the HC has truly lost the team, there's no choice but to fire him. That's like releasing the blow-off valve so it doesn't blow up the system. We got to that point with Butch when he had his little nervous breakdown He'd long since lost the team, and there was no choice but to can his sorry arse.
The second scenario is if someone really wants to see how Grantham or the Wunderkind OC would do calling the shots.
History has shown that virtually every single interim HC has failed when brought on during the season. Such a move wouldn't help the season, but could give us a glimpse of what someone else could do, or release the pressure that builds up with extreme failure.
We're not at that point, but it's not far-fetched to say RAC isn't in a position of security.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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In return,I asked one pretty basic question.
What great NFL head coaching qualities have you seen that leads you to believe that RAC is successfull NFL head coaching material?
Until the team wins, there is no defense for "great coaching qualities".
You innocently ask that one, simple, basic, question, but it is so loaded that it's impossible to give a valid answer. It cannot be answered because the team has not won. Nothing anyone can say will hold merit because the rebuttal to their positive is the negative that the team is not winning.
No one has great coaching qualities when their team is not winning. Even a bona fide great coach, with great coaching qualities, is in question when his team is not winning. Situations and circumstances be damned; if the team is not winning what great coaching qualities can anyone point to with convincing conviction?
The only great coaching qualities that would be obvious and valid in this scenario are the ones that are "behind the scenes" in the building of the foundation of the team. No one but those within the organization and those on the team get to see firsthand what is going on there. All we see is what's on the field and so long as the team is not yet winning those great coaching qualities are not obvious.
No coach is going to be seen as making great in-game decisions until his team is winning. No coach is going to be seen as making great half-time adjustments until his team is talented and rehearsed enough to make those adjustments work to a winning advantage. No coach is going to be seen as a great leader until he leads his team to consistant winning. On and on.
As Elvis Costello said, "What's so great about peace, love and understanding?"
It's all about the perspective. When the team is winning we can all point to our great head coach. But so long as they are not there is nothing great to point to.
Some also like to say things like, "This team is in it's 3rd year in this defense." Of course they are. But they haven't played 3 years in it yet as the statement seems to allude.
Additions like Robaire Smith, Shawn Smith, Antowan Peek and Eric Wright have played 2 games in this defense. One of them is a straight up rookie. There is a lot of hope in those guys and we are counting on them a great deal. But they are hardly in their 3rd year in this defense.
Pool is in his 1 year and 2 games in this defense and his 1st year was playing three different positions part-time. He is just now in the game having only one position in which to concentrate. Wimbley has played his 2nd game of his 2nd year. The same goes for Leon Williams and DQ. Lee Bodden is playing on 2 different injuries.
There's 7 players who have not even sniffed their "3rd year in this defense" yet they all seem to be held accountable for 3 full years.
The statement that the team is in it's 3rd year of this defense is decieving at best. The only ones in their 3rd year are Ted, Orphious, Thompson and AD. And they have played their 2nd game of the 3rd year and they've played most of them with players around them who ain't even close.
If anything, I'd like to hear that the team has had 2 years in this defense. But then, when argueing points against them it doesn't sound as good as saying "in their 3rd year" which makes it sound like they've spent more time in it than they acutally have. Besides, saying the truth would eliminate Smith, Smith, Peek, Wimbley, Williams, DQ, Wright and Pool from the equation.
They all need time to play together and gel.
But there are some who cannot wait for the team to develop. They are looking for great coaching qualities in the midst of this building of the team. They are looking for obvious signs of a winning team even though the team is not yet winning.
Great coaches do not gain their reputations while losing in the midst of re-building a poor team. They gain their reputations after they've built a winning team.
To ask, in advance, for indications that this will come about is only asking for an arguement that no one can win but the questioner as he is the only one who has what he will deem as "proof" by merely pointing at the losses.
It takes a real genius to point to a losing team and proclaim that the team is not doing well. It takes a real harbinger to forcast the future based only on that losing. And it takes a real carper to base perspectives on fault finding, blaming and finger pointing.
Most glaring questions will answer themselves in time.
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Refs,
Can we lock this thread? lol...
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No Pit,, the real problem here is that you called me a liar,, you are insignificant to me now,,, in fact, you are now iggyed..
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
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I agree it's WAY to subjective to say what determines a great coach or who makes great coaching decisions. If the guy wins most his games, goes to the play-offs a good percentage of the time then I guess we say "that's a great coach" We soon forget he what players he had, only that he won...
Would you call Cowher a great coach ? He had a high percentage of wins and won a superbowl. Yet the very next year he lost half his games. Why ? Did he forget how to coach or quit making good coaching decisions ?
RAC indicated after the game they were trying several different schemes to get pressure on Palmer. He made adjustments during the game AND at half time. None really worked. Was it because the schemes sucked or we were out played ? Would RAC win coaching the Colts right now ?
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The first is if he falls into a situation where the players have completely stopped playing for him.
Absolutely agree!
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The second scenario is if someone really wants to see how Grantham or the Wunderkind OC would do calling the shots.
I would think that's putting the cart before the horse a little.. What I mean is that if the first thing happens, and RAC becomes ineffective because he lost the team, then he's gotta go, then you put one of the Coordinators in charge.
I would hope they wouldn't fire RAC just to see of one of the coordinators could do better...
IN recent history, the only Coordinator that I can actually remember being successful as an interim HC is Marty Schottenhiemer.. Could that really be the last one? Man I just don't remember anyone else!
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My seed of doubt gets further re-enforced when I look at other teams in the SAM Etype of situation... Nolan at SF, Sean Payton of last year, McCarthy with his system in place a few years and let's not forget Kubiak and what he is doing with the Texans...
Well, you can take each one of those situations and break it down and show similarities and differences with our own... I won't go through each one, but with Sean Payton, my guess is the folks around here would want him fired right about now. He came in and had a magical season but they have looked absolutely AWFUL in two consecutive games with essentially the same talent as last year... Granted, one was against the Colts as they hung their super bowl banner, sort of understandable, but the other was to Tampa Bay.... I mean c'mon... How can you get your clock cleaned one week and then not come back and play hard against Tampa Bay?
Nolan seems like a fair example, he started the same year as RAC... but remember, a couple years before he got there, the 9ers were 10-6, 7-9.. then Garcia left, Rattay in, they go 2-14... then in comes Nolan and a lot of the players from the 10-6, 7-9 teams are still there. He was also able to get Smith and Gore in his first draft, both are now in their 3rd year as starters... where as we had to spend the first couple years building in other areas and are just now getting to the QB spot... I don't know what the 9ers have been through as far as injury but they brought in Larry Allen, pro-bowl OL and he's played every game for 2 years, we brought in Bentley, pro-bowl OL and he's yet to take a snap... they drafted Vernon Davis and he hit the ground running, we drafted Winslow and he's just now getting up to speed..... I think we are on the same path as the 9ers, just a year or so behind because of where we started and some very unfortunate breaks...
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Just a quick general reply cause obvious the faction who want RAC gone totally ignore my posts...COWARDS...lol 
Then again I try not to be redundant - Pit how often did you post on this thread? You had that much to say I posted once. And got not a one response and I tried to keep it football.
But I see all these remarks on needing justifications on WHY RAC IS A GREAT HEAD COACH...can't he just be a good Head Coach and we'll leave the great for when and if we win any SBs...like Dungy.
Its simple and its called building through the draft.
Its simple and its called building the foundations OL and D front 7.
We are not done in building - we are getting close where we can become competitive. The team is young in its stars...none have arrived. There is a major lack of leadership. These are our leaders of the future who will mentor all our draft picks from hence on.
You think thats an easy task? To teach these kids how to be MEN not only football players? Great Coaches come from - CONTINUITY!!!
Look how long it took Dungy to become a GREAT COACH.
You want evidence....how bout a team that came out with great adversity, a very avg. QB a fairly new OL and a RB supposedly over the hill and they go and break an NFL record Offensively.
And don't give me any BS about 2004...that game we were grossly behind the entire game and had to be in some spread offense catching up. Last Sunday we were simply using our normal playbook and executing from it.
This was just the tip of the iceberg. It won't happen everygame...YET! But we are building up to it. The more continuity the more apt you are to EXECUTE. It simply is common sense.
The ability to teach is the hidden denominator that you Anti-RACers simply cannot see and what you cannot see you simply think that it does not exist. But he has taken on the tough task to teach these talented kids and form a team out of them. Their ego's are fragile and they are almost afraid to win. Last week could have been an awakening. The talent is there, the teaching is there. Believing has to be there too!
Got to run.
JMHO
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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Give it up Eo,,, There are some people in this world that you can NEVER get to understand anything,,,
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Just a quick general reply cause obvious the faction who want RAC gone totally ignore my posts...COWARDS...lol
Then again I try not to be redundant - Pit how often did you post on this thread? You had that much to say I posted once. And got not a one response and I tried to keep it football.
But I see all these remarks on needing justifications on WHY RAC IS A GREAT HEAD COACH...can't he just be a good Head Coach and we'll leave the great for when and if we win any SBs...like Dungy.
Its simple and its called building through the draft.
Its simple and its called building the foundations OL and D front 7.
We are not done in building - we are getting close where we can become competitive. The team is young in its stars...none have arrived. There is a major lack of leadership. These are our leaders of the future who will mentor all our draft picks from hence on.
You think thats an easy task? To teach these kids how to be MEN not only football players? Great Coaches come from - CONTINUITY!!!
Look how long it took Dungy to become a GREAT COACH.
You want evidence....how bout a team that came out with great adversity, a very avg. QB a fairly new OL and a RB supposedly over the hill and they go and break an NFL record Offensively.
And don't give me any BS about 2004...that game we were grossly behind the entire game and had to be in some spread offense catching up. Last Sunday we were simply using our normal playbook and executing from it.
This was just the tip of the iceberg. It won't happen everygame...YET! But we are building up to it. The more continuity the more apt you are to EXECUTE. It simply is common sense.
The ability to teach is the hidden denominator that you Anti-RACers simply cannot see and what you cannot see you simply think that it does not exist. But he has taken on the tough task to teach these talented kids and form a team out of them. Their ego's are fragile and they are almost afraid to win. Last week could have been an awakening. The talent is there, the teaching is there. Believing has to be there too!
Got to run.
JMHO
Good post.
I have some opinions both ways on this that I'll have in like an hour or so, I gotta run to class right now.
I'm very on the fence, I see things that make me wanna tear my hair out and I also see some things that I think are out of his control.
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Just a quick general reply cause obvious the faction who want RAC gone totally ignore my posts...COWARDS...lol
Then again I try not to be redundant - Pit how often did you post on this thread? You had that much to say I posted once. And got not a one response and I tried to keep it football.
But I see all these remarks on needing justifications on WHY RAC IS A GREAT HEAD COACH...can't he just be a good Head Coach and we'll leave the great for when and if we win any SBs...like Dungy.
Its simple and its called building through the draft.
Its simple and its called building the foundations OL and D front 7.
We are not done in building - we are getting close where we can become competitive. The team is young in its stars...none have arrived. There is a major lack of leadership. These are our leaders of the future who will mentor all our draft picks from hence on.
You think thats an easy task? To teach these kids how to be MEN not only football players? Great Coaches come from - CONTINUITY!!!
Look how long it took Dungy to become a GREAT COACH.
You want evidence....how bout a team that came out with great adversity, a very avg. QB a fairly new OL and a RB supposedly over the hill and they go and break an NFL record Offensively.
And don't give me any BS about 2004...that game we were grossly behind the entire game and had to be in some spread offense catching up. Last Sunday we were simply using our normal playbook and executing from it.
This was just the tip of the iceberg. It won't happen everygame...YET! But we are building up to it. The more continuity the more apt you are to EXECUTE. It simply is common sense.
The ability to teach is the hidden denominator that you Anti-RACers simply cannot see and what you cannot see you simply think that it does not exist. But he has taken on the tough task to teach these talented kids and form a team out of them. Their ego's are fragile and they are almost afraid to win. Last week could have been an awakening. The talent is there, the teaching is there. Believing has to be there too!
Got to run.
JMHO
i see it like this
as long as RAC goes 8-8 he deserves another year here
there is more talent on this team..if he can't win atleast 8 games..then a change may be in order...7-9 is borderline
but RAC deserves a fair shake this season barring a complelte diaster
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DS, the effort is there from Pit....to ignore anything anyone says that he disagrees with and continue to scream they aren't answering his questions. All of us have stated we don't know if RAC is the answer (just as we did with Frye that you stated in error made us believe he was the guy). We have stated what we think is qualities that COULD make him a good HC. Pit has ignored them because he has an agenda. He thinks debating is screaming the same thing over and over and ignoring what the opposing viewpoint is or what has been said. It's the same "debating" style he uses in political threads. Then he resorts to calling Damon a liar and, just in political threads, accuses others of personal insults. It's the same thing over and over.
It's refreshing when you get on here to debate because you actually listen to both sides of the arguement. You have "agreed to disagree". That's debating and wanting to discuss things. Pit wants to steamroll everyone until everyone says he's right. His self-esteem issues are scary. The only thing you submitted in error was that Frye supporters thought he was "the guy", when all that was really said is that we don't know yet. Other than that, you keep it a debate. Pit doesn't. That's why people have stopped giving him his answers. He's gotten them and since he disagrees with it, he ignores it and continues to demand it over and over again.
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Quote:
as long as RAC goes 8-8 he deserves another year here
there is more talent on this team..if he can't win atleast 8 games..then a change may be in order...7-9 is borderline
To me, it's not so much the final record as how we arrived at it: how the team finished the season, whether they still play hard and respect Romeo, and whether they are showing solid signs of improvement.
![[Linked Image from i28.photobucket.com]](http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c201/shadedog/mcenroe2.jpg) gmstrong -----------------
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Bingo! Wins and losses during rebuilding don't mean a whole heck of alot. Everyone points to the first year under RAC and how we "overachieved" (yet no credit for doing a good job interestingly enough). Then we "underachieved" the next year (of course with RAC getting a ton of blame). It's not that simple. First, we were rarely blown out of games. Second, that year of "underachieving" the Browns had one of, if not the, toughest schedules in the NFL (off the top of my head). No one wants to look at that though, because it's important to run RAC out of here right this minute because, after all, Marty is just sitting at home chomping at the bit to be crucified by the same fans begging for him today.
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Here's my thoughts on this...I have arguments both for and against RAC.
-While defensively it looks like we haven't improved whatsoever, when you look deeper, it's obvious as to why. Losing Baxter, losing Cutch (last year before Holly stepped it up), starting a rookie on the outside and not having Holly in the nickel role for a game and a half.
-That being said...it doesn't look like we've improved against the run, even with the addition of the Smiths and having DQ and Wimbley in their 2nd season.
-I still maintain that the decision to keep Mo and hitch his wagon to Frye was a BIG reason as to why we were the "bumbling stumbling mess" we were last year, we would have been bad either way, but not #3 overall bad, IMO.
-That being said, it's his first head coaching job and the first time he's had to fire a friend. That HAS to sting.
-I don't like the lack of blitzing in our defense...Romeo was brought here partially for his exotic schemes...I haven't seen that yet. While they weren't like the Steelers blitzes...the Pats got a ton of credit for doing things such as swapping the corners with the safeties and disguising their blitzes and shifting in and out of areas.
-Lack of talent or not, I don't like coming out flat against division rivals.
-Young talent takes time to bloom. If we're essentially starting over...I'm thinking back to the first two years of the expansion franchise and how we did nothing good until the third year. This is the year we should see improvement...and I saw some in the preseason, and I've seen us lay an egg one week and win a barn burner the next. Too early to judge.
-That being said...we went 6-10 one year and 4-12 the next...not exactly an improvement, although I have my theories as to why that happened.
-As much as I want Romeo to succeed...I just don't see it so far.
-That being said, I'm rooting for him. He's not a spin doctor like Botch was and seems like a genuinely great human being.
Basically, I can't judge yet...we'll know by the bye week, IMO.
Last edited by Ammo; 09/21/07 12:12 PM.
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Just a couple of counterpoints......I don't think it was bad to get Frye, just in not sticking with the plan. The plan was that he would be a project to be brought along slowly. They didn't. That's the only real problem I have with the Frye situation, he was thrown in to quickly. Defensively, you haven't seen the "exotic blitzes" because we haven't had the personnel to run them. Keep it Simple Stupid is the key tagline before now. You have to walk before you can run. I think you'll see more and more now that we have the pieces to the puzzle. Other than that, not too bad a post. Congrats on a post that makes some sense
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Quote:
Defensively, you haven't seen the "exotic blitzes" because we haven't had the personnel to run them.
...and while we do hav ethem now, most of them in the secondary are getting banged up or are inexperienced.... so we're not playing super-aggressive just yet, again.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Where are the fire Romeo threads?
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