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jc...
I do not put alot of stock in charts and analytics to prove how good or bad the Browns OLine and QB are playing ...
There is a higher standard that some OL coaches use when judging their offensive linemen. James Campen, the Brown's OL coach has a higher standard and I'm a believer in the standard Campen uses to judge his OLineman's performance...
Campen doesn’t buy into 'the QB holding the ball too long theory' when it comes to linemen..below is from Dave's first post in this thread...
“If we’re going by stopwatch, you’re asking the wrong person,’’ he said. “Because I don’t believe in stopwatches, I think it’s a bunch of hogwash. I think you protect as long as it takes him to throw the damn ball. End of discussion. Period. You block until as much time as he needs to throw the ball. I’ve always believed that and I will not stop teaching that.’’
IMO, some of the Browns OLinemen are not performing to expectations...hopefully they will improve their play.
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You took that out of context. He is just demanding more from his players. Of course, he should not have gone public w/it. I do like how you used that quote to pretend that holding the ball too long is not an issue, though. LOL
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It was only one play, but of course that is what gets highlighted. No mention of the OL giving up zero sacks and only 8 pressures in the the Seattle game, though. I'm with you on this one. That said... a lineman shoulder-checking a rushing defensive end? Is that actually a thing in football? That's pretty bad. I don't agree, but if someone's opinion is that the line is bad, and this clip is out there.... I've seen worse arguments, is all I'm saying. I haven't seen any real, actual evidence that any of our linemen are getting benched. We've seen guys rotate through the starting 5 during our off week. That's not newsworthy. We've heard a coach basically saying that his guys need to get better, and they're not accepting excuses. That's borderline newsworthy. It boils my blood that MKC still has the ability to stir up this kind of crap. Switching gears... the only way I could possibly rationalize the coaching staff wanting to swap up linemen goes back to the offensive scheme. They're still in love with the long-bomb offense, which does mean they'll need a stouter oline (and that's not even getting into the fact we have a 2nd year QB back there executing it for them). 2.5 seconds is great and all, but that scheme, on average, will require more. I would hope, if this even is the case, that they quickly realize that that guy isn't on the roster (and if he was, he'd be playing already).
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
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So, does anyone want to talk about the discipline issue? Or, the leak to Fox Sports about how Gregg Robinson was our number one problem? Or, the three main reasons why we are not performing as well as expected? Or, is the PFF all about personalities? followed by: Of course, the three guys who post most of that information on this board are not currently posting the available information about holding the ball, positive pass protection, and many other related offensive stats. I have no idea why they are remaining mute. LOL As to the topic of the OL ... I said earlier in the season I didn't think they were as bad as some were making out. Baker hasn't helped. Likewise - I think the 'eye test' shows the line is probably not performing as well as the analytics may be making them appear if the analytics is telling us that Baker has at least 2.5 seconds to throw on each/most plays. As someone else mentioned - QB's that can routinely extend plays (Ben, Rogers etc) are going to skew the stats. I don't think Baker's in that bracket - and he's "extended plays" this year by running when he didn't need to ... but there is a whole lot going on that "2.5 seconds" doesn't reflect or show.
The more things change the more they stay the same.
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j/c:
I've said this before and I will say it again. It's not good for a team when one person is constantly put above the entire team and others are shouldering the blame for that player's problems.
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You took that out of context. He is just demanding more from his players. Of course, he should not have gone public w/it. I do like how you used that quote to pretend that holding the ball too long is not an issue, though. LOL
I recognize when you are trying to push the theme that it's "Baker's fault" that the OLine has penalties because you believe Baker holds the ball too long. That is nothing but BS.
Campen is 100% correct, expecting the Brown's OLine to hold their blocks as long as it takes for Mayfield to find an open receiver and to complete the pass.
Should a coach expect just average or below average from his OLine? NO, a good coach expects the best and he pushes his players to deliver whatever it takes.
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Campen is 100% correct, expecting the Brown's OLine to hold their blocks as long as it takes for Mayfield to find an open receiver and to complete the pass.
That's the silliest thing I've ever heard. You don't field bookend OT's with average at best skill sets and ask them to do what they're not capable of doing. You play and run schemes within the talent you have to work with. Robinson is not Trent Williams. Hubbard is even weaker. It's fine to say what you think an OT should be able to do. It's yet another thing to scheme around an OT tackle to be able to do that when he doesn't have the skill set to accomplish that. You set your scheme up to use the talent you have. Not expect your talent to run a scheme they're not suited for. If Campen actually believes he has the talent to accomplish this, it sounds like he's part of the problem. No OL can just block defenders forever.
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It was only one play, but of course that is what gets highlighted. Bill Buckner agrees.
And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul.
- John Muir
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Originally Posted By: mac
Campen is 100% correct, expecting the Brown's OLine to hold their blocks as long as it takes for Mayfield to find an open receiver and to complete the pass.
That's the silliest thing I've ever heard.
A coach expecting more from his players is silly?
You admit that the Browns OTs are not playing well then you proclaim that it is silly for Campen to expect Robinson and Hubbard to improve their play....that makes zero sense.
A good coach always expects more from their players and when those players max out and it's still not good enough, you move on.
Last edited by mac; 10/23/19 12:21 PM.
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Unrealistic expectations are closer to a dream than a reality. Maybe we should expect him to work with the talent he's been given to make the best of what he has to work with rather than to expect things humans can't do. NO OL player can just hold blocks forever. That's just silly.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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Kitchens said he will wait until Sunday to reveal who is starting on the O-Line, wouldn't say whether or not they are going to make any changes. "I've never said anything about possible changes" https://twitter.com/FredGreetham/status/1187017468507803648
You know my love will Not Fade Away.........
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It was only one play, but of course that is what gets highlighted. No mention of the OL giving up zero sacks and only 8 pressures in the the Seattle game, though. Word. The OLine played a damn-near stellar game against the 'Hawks. They played as a cohesive unit. FWIW, making light of that play shows Robinson getting destroyed... But also shows why our OLine played so great last week. As far as the stopwatch thing, it's not a players job to block for a certain amount of time, it's his job to protect the QB. That quote is exactly what should come out of a coaches mouth.
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I have zero problems w/the OL coach having that type of mindset. I would also have zero problems if the QB coach, OC, or HC told the qb "I don't care if you are getting pressured early. I'm not interested in stopwatches. Get rid of the ball quicker and make better reads."
It works both ways. That is why I said mac took it out of context. Of course, the position coach is going to demand more from his unit.
With all of that said, I do think the OL did a nice job against Seattle. I also think that Baker did a much better job in the pocket and he did get a good job of getting rid of the ball quicker. There are going to be times when you have to scramble around and that effects the average time to throw, but for the most part, I think the ball came out quicker. That's progress.
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Couldn't agree more on the "goes both ways" attitude. Funny thing is, this bs is all driven by us (the fans) and the media. Very little chance Baker is whining about not having enough time or the OLine is whining about him being too hard to protect. This is a narrative created by people who watch the game, not those who participate.
Unless Robinson is whining, that may, in fact, be the reason for this thread in the first place.
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I doubt that either Baker or Robinson are whining. I'm not there and do not know for sure, but I don't either the OL or Baker is so drastically worse than the other. It's kind of hard to point fingers in a locker room when you have issues of your own.
I will say that unless Freddie thinks it gives him a competitive advantage on Sunday, his handling of this topic is pretty lame. He's waiting to Sunday to announce who is starting on the OL and then says he never said anyone is being benched. Those two comments don't jibe and come across as weird.
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I'll play Devil's Advocate... Kitchens doesn't give one whoopty hell what you, I or the media thinks. He's called one or more players out and has let them know their status on Sunday is based on their practice and participation during the week and leading up to the game.
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I'll play Devil's Advocate... Kitchens doesn't give one whoopty hell what you, I or the media thinks. He's called one or more players out and has let them know their status on Sunday is based on their practice and participation during the week and leading up to the game.
 
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I'll play Devil's Advocate... Kitchens doesn't give one whoopty hell what you, I or the media thinks. He's called one or more players out and has let them know their status on Sunday is based on their practice and participation during the week and leading up to the game.
Wait...what!?!? I demand to be heard!!
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Gee mac, I never once said or even insinuated that he cares what we think. But, I'm not sure what the problem w/me expressing my opinion since this is a public message board and I was talking about the Browns and did not insult any other poster.
And btw mac.............do you remember when you were on the FO kick and were criticizing Sashi multiple times per day? Do you remember all the folks that were attacking you daily? Do you remember the one dude who actually stood up for you and said you had a right to express your opinion even if I didn't personally agree w/that said opinion? And mac, here is a little tidbit, most of those folks who were destroying your character are the same ones coming after me now. I'm not including Fate in that group because I don't remember him getting on your case. Maybe you can remember all of this the next time you want to call my takes BS or put words into my mouth? Then again, maybe not?
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Maybe we could all talk about Browns football without it being intended or taken personally?
NAH!!!
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j/c: There has been a lot of talk about how bad the OL has been and how Baker's stats about holding the ball are hurt because the line gives up such quick pressure and he is forced to bail early. My eyes tell me that that is incorrect. Here is an article that ranks individual and team pass rush and pass pro win rates. I highlighted the Browns rankings.
I will add this information to other threads where people are discussing the OL and our QB. NFL pass-blocking, pass-rushing rankings: 2019 PBWR, PRWR leaderboard Oct 22, 2019 ESPN.com ESPN Analytics created a revolutionary new way of measuring the pass-block and pass-rush performance of individual NFL players. Editor's Picks We created better pass-rusher and pass-blocker stats: How they work Our Pass Block Win Rate metric tells us the rate at which linemen can sustain their blocks for 2.5 seconds or longer. Likewise, our Pass Rush Win Rate metric tells us how often a pass-rusher is able to beat his block within 2.5 seconds. Our model of pass blocking harnesses player tracking data from NFL Next Gen Stats. Read more about how PBWR and PRWR work here. Top 10 DE/OLB Pass Rush Win Rate 1. Robert Quinn, Cowboys, 33% 2. T.J. Watt, Steelers, 30% 3. Khalil Mack, Bears, 29% 4. Shaquil Barrett, Buccaneers, 28% 5. Matthew Judon, Ravens, 27% 6. Takkarist McKinley, Falcons, 26% 7. Preston Smith, Packers, 25% 8. Myles Garrett, Browns, 25%9. Dante Fowler Jr., Rams, 24% 10. DeMarcus Lawrence, Cowboys, 24% Top 10 DT Pass Rush Win Rate 1. Aaron Donald, Rams, 26% 2. Grady Jarrett, Falcons, 21% 3. Calais Campbell, Jaguars, 21% 4. Ed Oliver, Bills, 19% 5. Vita Vea, Buccaneers, 19% 6. Maliek Collins, Cowboys, 18% 7. Chris Jones, Chiefs, 15% 8. Corey Peters, Cardinals, 15% 9. Denico Autry, Colts, 14% 10. Charles Omenihu, Texans, 14% Top 10 OT Pass Block Win Rate 1. Trent Brown, Raiders, 95% 2. David Bakhtiari, Packers, 95% 3. Tytus Howard, Texans, 95% 4. Brian O'Neill, Vikings, 95% 5. Charles Leno Jr., Bears, 94% 6. Dion Dawkins, Bills, 93% 7. Ty Nsekhe, Bills, 93% 8. Ronnie Stanley, Ravens, 93% 9. Orlando Brown Jr., Ravens, 92% 10. Anthony Castonzo, Colts, 92% Top 10 OG Pass Block Win Rate 1. Elgton Jenkins, Packers, 98% 2. Marshal Yanda, Ravens, 97% 3. Joe Thuney, Patriots, 97% 4. Quenton Nelson, Colts, 96% 5. J.R. Sweezy, Cardinals, 95% 6. Joel Bitonio, Browns, 95%7. Brandon Brooks, Eagles, 95% 8. Ali Marpet, Buccaneers, 94% 9. David DeCastro, Steelers, 94% 10. Josh Kline, Vikings, 94% Top 10 C Pass Block Win Rate 1. Corey Linsley, Packers, 99% 2. JC Tretter, Browns, 98%3. A.Q. Shipley, Cardinals, 97% 4. Mike Pouncey, Chargers, 97% 5. Brandon Linder, Jaguars, 96% 6. Rodney Hudson, Raiders, 96% 7. Ryan Jensen, Buccaneers, 96% 8. Mitch Morse, Bills, 95% 9. Weston Richburg, 49ers, 94% 10. Matt Skura, Ravens, 93% Team Pass Rush Win Rate 1. Tampa Bay Buccaneers, 60% 2. Baltimore Ravens, 56% 3. Philadelphia Eagles, 55% 4. Dallas Cowboys, 55% 5. Jacksonville Jaguars, 50% 6. Los Angeles Rams, 50% 7. Atlanta Falcons, 49% 8. Pittsburgh Steelers, 48% 9. Green Bay Packers, 48% 10. Buffalo Bills, 47% 11. Arizona Cardinals, 47% 12. Chicago Bears, 47% 13. Cleveland Browns, 46%14. New York Jets, 46% 15. San Francisco 49ers, 46% 16. Houston Texans, 45% 17. Indianapolis Colts, 44% 18. Washington Redskins, 44% 19. Los Angeles Chargers, 44% 20. Seattle Seahawks, 41% 21. Carolina Panthers, 41% 22. Tennessee Titans, 41% 23. New Orleans Saints, 41% 24. New England Patriots, 39% 25. New York Giants, 38% 26. Minnesota Vikings, 38% 27. Cincinnati Bengals, 37% 28. Kansas City Chiefs, 36% 29. Denver Broncos, 36% 30. Oakland Raiders, 36% 31. Miami Dolphins, 31% 32. Detroit Lions, 24% Team Pass Block Win Rate 1. Green Bay Packers, 68% 2. Buffalo Bills, 65% 3. Baltimore Ravens, 65% 4. Indianapolis Colts, 64% 5. Oakland Raiders, 63% 6. Jacksonville Jaguars, 61% 7. Houston Texans, 61% 8. Pittsburgh Steelers, 61% 9. Tennessee Titans, 60% 10. Cleveland Browns, 60%11. Dallas Cowboys, 60% 12. New Orleans Saints, 59% 13. Arizona Cardinals, 58% 14. Los Angeles Chargers, 58% 15. New York Giants, 58% 16. Tampa Bay Buccaneers, 58% 17. Chicago Bears, 57% 18. Philadelphia Eagles, 56% 19. Kansas City Chiefs, 56% 20. San Francisco 49ers, 56% 21. Minnesota Vikings, 56% 22. Washington Redskins, 56% 23. Los Angeles Rams, 54% 24. Detroit Lions, 53% 25. New England Patriots, 53% 26. New York Jets, 52% 27. Seattle Seahawks, 50% 28. Atlanta Falcons, 50% 29. Denver Broncos, 46% 30. Miami Dolphins, 43% 31. Cincinnati Bengals, 41% 32. Carolina Panthers, 40% visit the ESPN Analytics Index. https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/2758...rwr-leaderboard
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Our OL has not been bad ... our OT’s have been bad. Kush hasn’t even been bad compared to what ppl think.
Our big problems on O: Baker sucks, our coaching sucks, and our OTs suck
"First down inside the 10. A score here will put us in the Super Bowl. Cooper is far to the left as Njoku settles into the slot. Moore is flanked out wide to the right. Chubb and Ford are split in the backfield as Watson takes the snap ... Here we go."
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Our OL has not been bad ... our OT’s have been bad. Kush hasn’t even been bad compared to what ppl think.
Our big problems on O: Baker sucks, our coaching sucks, and our OTs suck Not sure if you meant to put those sucking in order. The only thing I could want to argue is flipping coaching and Baker.
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
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Our OL has not been bad ... our OT’s have been bad. Kush hasn’t even been bad compared to what ppl think.
Our big problems on O: Baker sucks, our coaching sucks, and our OTs suck Not sure if you meant to put those sucking in order. The only thing I could want to argue is flipping coaching and Baker. yeah, it was more of a stream of consciousness than a list haha i agree
"First down inside the 10. A score here will put us in the Super Bowl. Cooper is far to the left as Njoku settles into the slot. Moore is flanked out wide to the right. Chubb and Ford are split in the backfield as Watson takes the snap ... Here we go."
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OUR OL has not been the main problem. They are doing a good job.
Freddie seems to be backtracking on who he is going to put out there because the tackles who are starting are the best option.
Our play call selections compared to where the QB has been going has been a huge problem.
Freddie should be calling more plays holding the RB back to give Baker more time to throw
or
Freddie should be calling shorter pass plays so that Baker has to keep things close (within 15 yards) and in front of him.
Blocking those who argue to argue, eliminates the argument.
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OUR OL has not been the main problem. They are doing a good job.
Freddie seems to be backtracking on who he is going to put out there because the tackles who are starting are the best option.
Our play call selections compared to where the QB has been going has been a huge problem.
Freddie should be calling more plays holding the RB back to give Baker more time to throw
or
Freddie should be calling shorter pass plays so that Baker has to keep things close (within 15 yards) and in front of him.
Brother I agree with you that some of the play calling is Questionable at times, but I love the Browns have for 55+ years and I see through Orange colored glasses a lot but I have to say the line (Pass Blocking) has been bad, now they Run Blocking pretty well but that doesn't help Baker ... JMHO 
Last edited by PastorMarc; 10/24/19 12:14 PM.
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Our OL has not been bad ... our OT’s have been bad. Kush hasn’t even been bad compared to what ppl think.
Our big problems on O: Baker sucks, our coaching sucks, and our OTs suck The only reason why Kush has not given up 5-6 sacks already is because Baker is adapt at avoiding the rush IN HIS FACE. Now turn that around and put him on Bakers blind side and it would paint a much different picture. Even so his pass blocking has been exceptable to the team (thanks to Bakers feet), but his run blocking is just short of terrible. He can't seem to stay on his feet. The same for Hubbard.
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Heard a radio interview with a long-time well respected oline coach. Don't remember his name, and he is retired, so take this for what it's worth.
He commented that Baker's dropbacks are too deep. Especially out if the shotgun.
For reference, the interview aired several weeks ago
Don't blame the clown for acting like a clown.
Ask yourself why you keep going to the circus.
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Yeah, I read something about Baker's drops. It's about depth when you are dropping. OTs are taught to make the edge rusher take a certain path. If the QB isn't not precise in his drops and gets too deep, that puts him right in the path of the rusher. The one I saw was about Baker's back foot being in that path.
Btw.......everyone has their opinions and I know Kush's grades have not been great, but he has looked good to me. I don't agree that Baker is making the OL look better. I think the reverse is more true than that take and the analytics which have been posted bear that out.
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Yeah, I read something about Baker's drops. It's about depth when you are dropping. OTs are taught to make the edge rusher take a certain path. If the QB isn't not precise in his drops and gets too deep, that puts him right in the path of the rusher. The one I saw was about Baker's back foot being in that path.
Btw.......everyone has their opinions and I know Kush's grades have not been great, but he has looked good to me. I don't agree that Baker is making the OL look better. I think the reverse is more true than that take and the analytics which have been posted bear that out. So...we should not believe the analytics for Kush...and just use our eyes. While simultaneously we should believe the analytics for the OL and not just use our eyes. I'm going to go with my eyes on both counts and I can easily see that the OL play has been unacceptable. What bears that out is all the smoke surrounding the potential trade for TW and the talk about changes at RG & RT. When you are eyeing changes along 60% of a unit, that unit is under-performing.
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It is apparent the team thinks so with talk of moving people around.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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I think the Oline has been ok-to-good, but just not good enough for our situation. That situation, specifically, is a 2nd year QB that is struggling, and a 1st-year head coach that apparently thought he could do no wrong in constructing an offense from scratch after he had something that worked.
Saying that the Oline, as it is, isn't going to work for this team is not saying that they're to blame for where we are right now.
That is how you can rationalize not blaming the Oline while simultaneously looking to upgrade said personnel.
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
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To me, the only reliable players so far have been Bitonio and Tretter. The others have been inconsistent at best.
The worst by a decent margin has been Hubbard in my opinion, followed by Kush, then Robinson. I find it suprising that Robinson's name was leaked as the first to be replaced.
Tackles are tackles.
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Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 4,868 Likes: 182
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 4,868 Likes: 182 |
Baker may be part of the problem but let's face it, we need an upgrade at the OT positions. There's no way around it. We thought back in TC that this could be a problem and it has become one plain and simple.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 70,651 Likes: 510
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 70,651 Likes: 510 |
Baker may be part of the problem but let's face it, we need an upgrade at the OT positions. There's no way around it. We thought back in TC that this could be a problem and it has become one plain and simple. agreed. If we draft or acquire adequate OTs and Baker still struggles, then we have a bigger issue it seems
"First down inside the 10. A score here will put us in the Super Bowl. Cooper is far to the left as Njoku settles into the slot. Moore is flanked out wide to the right. Chubb and Ford are split in the backfield as Watson takes the snap ... Here we go."
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Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 22,531 Likes: 176
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 22,531 Likes: 176 |
Basically comes down to Dorsey. If fans trust him and he thinks the issue is the Oline, then we will see changes. I doubt he makes changes on the oline if thinks baker is the issue
Tomorrow is the most important thing in life. Comes into us at midnight very clean. It's perfect when it arrives and it puts itself in our hands. It hopes we've learned something from yesterday. -John Wayne
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 10,870 Likes: 305
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 10,870 Likes: 305 |
You know my love will Not Fade Away.........
#gmSTRONG
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 10,870 Likes: 305
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 10,870 Likes: 305 |
Head coach Freddie Kitchens declined to answer ? about the offensive line and possible changes, joked "I promise we'll have 2 tackles, 2 guards and a center"
You know my love will Not Fade Away.........
#gmSTRONG
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 14,507 Likes: 1023
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 14,507 Likes: 1023 |
I have stated the same thing since OTA's.
Robinson was signed to a one year deal. There is a thought process there. Show me.
I doubt Dorsey thought Robinson was a long term fix.
Hubbard. His history is there for anyone to look up. He was never a starter at Pittsburgh.
Dorsey could not make all the changes he may have wanted because it is impossible in that short of time.
Hubbard and Robinson are not horrible. They are what they are. Their resume is pretty clear.
Kush was brought in to add depth. He is a serviceable guard but is best suited as a backup.
That is reality. That doesn't mean we can not win with them. They are not the worst in the league.
All it means is if we can improve a position with a better player and the cost is fair. We should.
That is what Dorsey is trying to do. That is why trades have already been made.
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 10,870 Likes: 305
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 10,870 Likes: 305 |
You know my love will Not Fade Away.........
#gmSTRONG
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DawgTalkers.net
Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Greg Robinson may be benched
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