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Folks I don't hate Baker Mayfield. I just have no problem calling a spade a spade, I call it how I see it.
Folks need to think Rationally. How do you go from breaking the rookie Td record and all that other stuff, into an INT machine that looks like the 2nd coming of Leaf in one off season? how does that happen?
NFL D coordinators didn't just suddenly just make Baker Mayfield inaccurate.
NFL D- Coordinators just didn't adjust and force Mayfield into throwing awful passes into triple coverage.
NFL D- Coordinators didn't just magically make Mayfield run into sacks.
Sherlock's Holmes had a famous saying:
Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth.
Its improbable that Mayfield is not a good QB based on last year.
Its improbable that Mayfield is a bust
However when you add the long list of flash in the pan QB in the NFL the last 30 years, Mirer, DA, Mitchell, Culpepper, Majkowski, Beurlein, Grbac, man I could go.
Point is there is "enough past evidence" to be VERY concerned about Mayfield and thats what folks mistake my hate for which is "concern".
I don't like that:
1. When we win Mayfield always say "I" such as "I was feeling dangerous"
2. when we lose he says "we need to do better", its always "we" not him.
3. He seems adamant on doing the same thing despite it not working like drifting right, this tells me he isn't listening to his coaching, as bad as our coaching has been, there is no way our staff isn't coaching him to stop drifting right, no way i will believe they are that inept, nope, Mayfield just won't listen.
I remember watching him rolls his eyes at Hue Jackson thinking he knows everything. the NFL has a way of humbling guys, but im not sure Mayfield takes humbling very well, he is too cocky, arrogant and prideful and I think this is getting in the way of him learning how to be an NFL player.
Our OL played lights out against Seattle Mayfield wasn't touched, yet he made terrible decisions like throwing into triple coverage in the end zone. Folks are doing him no favors allowing him to just brush off the mistakes as "we"
He needs to own up and say "I MADE THE MISTAKE AND ILL FIX IT" not this "we" nonsense, that will be the 1st step to him maybe turning things around, If he wants to be the man and be the face of the franchise he needs to step up and shoulder the blame.
Guess we will see in 2 years im not saying anything more about the topic. I don't care who our Qb is as long as we win, but there is many reasons to be concerned and burying your head in the sand and not acknowledging it isn't going to help the situation.
good day
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I have to shake my head, this post and this thread is predicated on this notion that something is wrong with Baker Mayfield.
He has the same mechanics that threw a record 27 touchdowns last year.
He has the same footwork that he had last season when he led us to 7 wins.
When you talk about what's different, the offense, the coaches, the players, it's met with laughter and insults. Nope, the correct answer apparently is that Baker has bad mechanics, poor footwork, he's regressed, he's bulked up too much, he's become inaccurate, etc etc.
Actually, the real correct answer is that we just need to give it more time.
I'm in the boat that says last year was the status quo, and that this year is more of the anomaly, not vice versa.
We will be fine, let it play out. We have our franchise quarterback. Nothing more to see here....
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Yuppers ... u nailed it ... Nothings wrong with Bake, he is clearly pulling his weight and doing his job and is in no way, shape or form a part of the problem ... its everyone else’s fault and they need to quit bringing Bake down ... Got it ...  Hmmm ... its not very comfie down here with my head buried this deep in the sand ... *shrugs* ...
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As i said we will see in 2 years. Right now im very concerned with what I am seeing. He is not even remotely playing good football at all. I hope that changes and soon .
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Baker Mayfield through 6 weeks...
5 Td's and 11 Int's.
Aaron Rodgers in one game today...
5 Td's and 0 Int's.
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Rodgers year 15 or something.
Baker year 2.
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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I'm not surprised that you would twist my post in typical fashion.
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He's a Versaite.
They're very excitable.
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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So much for the football talk. These threads always get derailed. A few comments:
--Baker is not a bust. He is not going anywhere. He's our qb and he needs to improve.
--Saying other posters "hate" Baker does not make him a better qb. Some folks ignore all the stats, play on the field, and then go off on other posters.
--OBJ is NOT the problem. Hell, we should be getting him the ball more. Baker's issues are mostly from his reads/progressions. Not OBJ.
Whatever........ I think people are saying OBJ is part of the problem not because of OBJ himself, and more because Zietler was part of the trade to get him. Carrying that elite line play over from last year, in hindsight, probably would've been more helpful than basically a handful of gadget plays we've been running with him. I think in the long run we'll be fine.
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
-PrplPplEater
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I believe our side of the trade is still without question the better side of the deal.
The problem came when management didn't address the tackle position. Assuming Corbett could or would play was a miscue, as was signing Robinson on a "1 year trial." There's more that should have been done to protect your franchise quarterback.
Despite what you read from some in this thread, Baker isn't the only problem.
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When your QB is holding the ball the third longest in the NFL, should we really be talking about the OL though? Asking for a friend....  Well, when the QB is throwing into double coverage at twice the rate of any other QB in the league ... it's the scheme. See, I learn something new every day. I didn't know the scheme forces QB's to throw into double coverage because they can't recognize what the D is doing. This is what the board is all about ... education.
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Jc
This 2018 QB draft class is....confusing.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
- Theodore Roosevelt
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Jc
This 2018 QB draft class is....confusing. I just said this in the Pats/Jets thread, but as of now I’m not even sure what to make of it either. Baker has regressed, Darnold is wildly inconsistent, Rosen looks to be toast, Allen isn’t pretty but is on a winning team, and Lamar is totally unconventional
"First down inside the 10. A score here will put us in the Super Bowl. Cooper is far to the left as Njoku settles into the slot. Moore is flanked out wide to the right. Chubb and Ford are split in the backfield as Watson takes the snap ... Here we go."
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Jc
This 2018 QB draft class is....confusing. Because nobody want's to wait three years before passing judgement. Far to many want to scream Hall Of Famer or BUST after one season, or even two seasons 
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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Ravens and Bills are very well coached. I still think we have the cream of the crop right here wearing brown and orange.
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Honest question here pit. That stat, third longest hold from snap to release, does that include every pass thrown or just passes thrown from the pocket. If that stat includes all passes thrown I wonder how fair it is to compare a quarterback who drops back into a perfectly clean pocket makes his read and throws to a quarterback who drops back, and on 20% of his dropbacks feels pressure, either real or imagined, rolls out toward a sideline before making his throw. Wouldn’t qb #2 have a longer time to release but not be improperly holding the ball too long?
I wonder what Fran tarketon’s average time to release was back in the day??
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So much is needed for success. Quarterbacks do not come into the league ready to play.
The media is so microwave driven.
One week a hero the next a bum. Teams win games. Quarterbacks need support in order to win. Young guys are going to be inconsistent.
Mahomes is really good. But he went to the right team to learn and develop. Good coaching. Good team. Weapons around him. His success is no accident.
Patience is a requirement for young players.
I am optimistic Baker will improve.
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So much is needed for success. Quarterbacks do not come into the league ready to play.
The media is so microwave driven.
One week a hero the next a bum. Teams win games. Quarterbacks need support in order to win. Young guys are going to be inconsistent.
Mahomes is really good. But he went to the right team to learn and develop. Good coaching. Good team. Weapons around him. His success is no accident.
Patience is a requirement for young players.
I am optimistic Baker will improve.
Nobody is asking them to be like Wilson or Mahomes, but all QB's have to show improvement, even in losses and in bad teams, when you stop improving so soon, its a major sign of concern no matter in which team you play. Improvement and development is key... Like with all rookies, first off-season is key for the first big step, but Baker regressed, so that should be a major reason to worry.
Last edited by rastanplan; 10/22/19 01:04 PM.
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All you really have to do is look at the attempts he has when he delivers it quickly. The results are much better.
Then even the question you asked is very subjective. He did much better last week, but up until that point he was rolling right when there really wasn't any pressure to make him do that. He was drifting back in the pocket rather than stepping up when he should be.
So are you talking about when he was "actually pressured" or when he was "perceiving pressure"? Because if you're talking about every time he felt uncomfortable, that doesn't mean he was pressured.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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Time to Throw Stat- Baker Mayfield: Week One - 2.82 (10th) Week Two - 3.35 (1st) Week Three - 2.96 (9th) Week Four - 2.44 (29th) Week Five - 3.35 (2nd) Week Six - 2.60 (18th) Average 2.90 (4th) https://nextgenstats.nfl.com/stats/passing
At DT, context and meaning are a scarecrow kicking at moving goalposts.
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Are your rankings flipped? It seems the longer he takes to throw, the higher rank he has?
Just trying to clarify.
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
-PrplPplEater
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That is how long he has to throw. Based on this, our OL is giving him the 4th most time to throw in the NFL.
This is a bit skewed however, because it just means he is taking that long to throw. We could be ranked 4th because most other QB's are getting the ball out quickly.
“It doesn't make sense to hire smart people and tell them what to do; we hire smart people so they can tell us what to do.” -Steve Jobs.
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Are your rankings flipped? It seems the longer he takes to throw, the higher rank he has?
Just trying to clarify. Check out his completion % in play-action versus not...I saw a graphic today (Twitter thing that I can't attach) that suggests our insistence on limiting the use of PA is a rather stupid idea.
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It's definitely one of those stats that does little to tell the whole story.
HERE WE GO BROWNIES! HERE WE GO!!
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No, it certainly does not tell the whole story. But I think it is a reliable, decent chunk of it.
At DT, context and meaning are a scarecrow kicking at moving goalposts.
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One half of it anyway. It shows how long the QB is taking to get rid of the ball, to turn it around and say it shows how long an OL is giving him it a bit misguided.
I look at it this way... If there is constant pressure on a QB, he's going to flush out to extend plays. In that respect, it looks like an OL is giving a QB more time when, in fact, the opposite is true.
I'm not saying this is what's happening in respect to the Browns, just a very general observation.
Last edited by FATE; 10/23/19 03:34 PM. Reason: responding to Memphis...
HERE WE GO BROWNIES! HERE WE GO!!
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There has been a lot of talk about how bad the OL has been and how Baker's stats about holding the ball are hurt because the line gives up such quick pressure and he is forced to bail early. My eyes tell me that that is incorrect. Here is an article that ranks individual and team pass rush and pass pro win rates. I highlighted the Browns rankings.
I will add this information to other threads where people are discussing the OL and our QB. NFL pass-blocking, pass-rushing rankings: 2019 PBWR, PRWR leaderboard Oct 22, 2019 ESPN.com ESPN Analytics created a revolutionary new way of measuring the pass-block and pass-rush performance of individual NFL players. Editor's Picks We created better pass-rusher and pass-blocker stats: How they work Our Pass Block Win Rate metric tells us the rate at which linemen can sustain their blocks for 2.5 seconds or longer. Likewise, our Pass Rush Win Rate metric tells us how often a pass-rusher is able to beat his block within 2.5 seconds. Our model of pass blocking harnesses player tracking data from NFL Next Gen Stats. Read more about how PBWR and PRWR work here. Top 10 DE/OLB Pass Rush Win Rate 1. Robert Quinn, Cowboys, 33% 2. T.J. Watt, Steelers, 30% 3. Khalil Mack, Bears, 29% 4. Shaquil Barrett, Buccaneers, 28% 5. Matthew Judon, Ravens, 27% 6. Takkarist McKinley, Falcons, 26% 7. Preston Smith, Packers, 25% 8. Myles Garrett, Browns, 25%9. Dante Fowler Jr., Rams, 24% 10. DeMarcus Lawrence, Cowboys, 24% Top 10 DT Pass Rush Win Rate 1. Aaron Donald, Rams, 26% 2. Grady Jarrett, Falcons, 21% 3. Calais Campbell, Jaguars, 21% 4. Ed Oliver, Bills, 19% 5. Vita Vea, Buccaneers, 19% 6. Maliek Collins, Cowboys, 18% 7. Chris Jones, Chiefs, 15% 8. Corey Peters, Cardinals, 15% 9. Denico Autry, Colts, 14% 10. Charles Omenihu, Texans, 14% Top 10 OT Pass Block Win Rate 1. Trent Brown, Raiders, 95% 2. David Bakhtiari, Packers, 95% 3. Tytus Howard, Texans, 95% 4. Brian O'Neill, Vikings, 95% 5. Charles Leno Jr., Bears, 94% 6. Dion Dawkins, Bills, 93% 7. Ty Nsekhe, Bills, 93% 8. Ronnie Stanley, Ravens, 93% 9. Orlando Brown Jr., Ravens, 92% 10. Anthony Castonzo, Colts, 92% Top 10 OG Pass Block Win Rate 1. Elgton Jenkins, Packers, 98% 2. Marshal Yanda, Ravens, 97% 3. Joe Thuney, Patriots, 97% 4. Quenton Nelson, Colts, 96% 5. J.R. Sweezy, Cardinals, 95% 6. Joel Bitonio, Browns, 95%7. Brandon Brooks, Eagles, 95% 8. Ali Marpet, Buccaneers, 94% 9. David DeCastro, Steelers, 94% 10. Josh Kline, Vikings, 94% Top 10 C Pass Block Win Rate 1. Corey Linsley, Packers, 99% 2. JC Tretter, Browns, 98%3. A.Q. Shipley, Cardinals, 97% 4. Mike Pouncey, Chargers, 97% 5. Brandon Linder, Jaguars, 96% 6. Rodney Hudson, Raiders, 96% 7. Ryan Jensen, Buccaneers, 96% 8. Mitch Morse, Bills, 95% 9. Weston Richburg, 49ers, 94% 10. Matt Skura, Ravens, 93% Team Pass Rush Win Rate 1. Tampa Bay Buccaneers, 60% 2. Baltimore Ravens, 56% 3. Philadelphia Eagles, 55% 4. Dallas Cowboys, 55% 5. Jacksonville Jaguars, 50% 6. Los Angeles Rams, 50% 7. Atlanta Falcons, 49% 8. Pittsburgh Steelers, 48% 9. Green Bay Packers, 48% 10. Buffalo Bills, 47% 11. Arizona Cardinals, 47% 12. Chicago Bears, 47% 13. Cleveland Browns, 46%14. New York Jets, 46% 15. San Francisco 49ers, 46% 16. Houston Texans, 45% 17. Indianapolis Colts, 44% 18. Washington Redskins, 44% 19. Los Angeles Chargers, 44% 20. Seattle Seahawks, 41% 21. Carolina Panthers, 41% 22. Tennessee Titans, 41% 23. New Orleans Saints, 41% 24. New England Patriots, 39% 25. New York Giants, 38% 26. Minnesota Vikings, 38% 27. Cincinnati Bengals, 37% 28. Kansas City Chiefs, 36% 29. Denver Broncos, 36% 30. Oakland Raiders, 36% 31. Miami Dolphins, 31% 32. Detroit Lions, 24% Team Pass Block Win Rate 1. Green Bay Packers, 68% 2. Buffalo Bills, 65% 3. Baltimore Ravens, 65% 4. Indianapolis Colts, 64% 5. Oakland Raiders, 63% 6. Jacksonville Jaguars, 61% 7. Houston Texans, 61% 8. Pittsburgh Steelers, 61% 9. Tennessee Titans, 60% 10. Cleveland Browns, 60%11. Dallas Cowboys, 60% 12. New Orleans Saints, 59% 13. Arizona Cardinals, 58% 14. Los Angeles Chargers, 58% 15. New York Giants, 58% 16. Tampa Bay Buccaneers, 58% 17. Chicago Bears, 57% 18. Philadelphia Eagles, 56% 19. Kansas City Chiefs, 56% 20. San Francisco 49ers, 56% 21. Minnesota Vikings, 56% 22. Washington Redskins, 56% 23. Los Angeles Rams, 54% 24. Detroit Lions, 53% 25. New England Patriots, 53% 26. New York Jets, 52% 27. Seattle Seahawks, 50% 28. Atlanta Falcons, 50% 29. Denver Broncos, 46% 30. Miami Dolphins, 43% 31. Cincinnati Bengals, 41% 32. Carolina Panthers, 40% visit the ESPN Analytics Index. https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/2758...rwr-leaderboard
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And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul.
- John Muir
#GMSTRONG
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I specially like the part where they say Baker is not missing explosive plays by that much... PFF has a Baker crush... they always had. Unfortunately I don't think Baker is that close on turning the corner.. it will take some time.
Last edited by rastanplan; 10/24/19 07:30 AM.
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I agree ... I actually think if he turns the corner it’ll have to be done in the offseason. Watching film, studying others, talking/reflecting/etc ... I think this year is gonna either make or break him
"First down inside the 10. A score here will put us in the Super Bowl. Cooper is far to the left as Njoku settles into the slot. Moore is flanked out wide to the right. Chubb and Ford are split in the backfield as Watson takes the snap ... Here we go."
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Yup.
My eyes told me our OL was playing well enough and giving the QB enough time. I will concede Mayfield was pressured a lot during the San Fran game, but he needs to learn how to deal with that by dumping off the ball.
Mayfield has held us back a lot this year, hopefully he gets better. with even average Qb play we are a 4-2 team right now. Mayfield is ranked dead last in the league and it shows with our record...you can't win with that kinda QB play. the OL is just a scapegoat, they have actually been over achieving this year all things considered.
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I specially like the part where they say Baker is not missing explosive plays by that much... PFF has a Baker crush... they always had. Unfortunately I don't think Baker is that close on turning the corner.. it will take some time. First off... thanks to vers for posting that article. That was a fun read. rasta, When the author said he's not missing explosive plays by much, I immediately thought of the dropped balls (Calloway TD-turned-INT, a couple dropped OBJ balls, and the Ratley one mentioned in the article). Author isn't wrong. Our vaunted receiving corps has let us down (not as much as Baker or Freddie, but there have been big plays where they were the weak link). I'm not sure if this is what the author meant when he made that statement, but that's how I see it.
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
-PrplPplEater
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I specially like the part where they say Baker is not missing explosive plays by that much... PFF has a Baker crush... they always had. Unfortunately I don't think Baker is that close on turning the corner.. it will take some time. First off... thanks to vers for posting that article. That was a fun read. rasta, When the author said he's not missing explosive plays by much, I immediately thought of the dropped balls (Calloway TD-turned-INT, a couple dropped OBJ balls, and the Ratley one mentioned in the article). Author isn't wrong. Our vaunted receiving corps has let us down (not as much as Baker or Freddie, but there have been big plays where they were the weak link). I'm not sure if this is what the author meant when he made that statement, but that's how I see it. On the other hand I can recall a significant number of plays where our WR bailed him out... Just consider the number of times he throws into double and triple coverage... Yes the author is wrong, we have one of the best WR's in the league, that is quite evident... Baker is not playing well, no sugarcoating or blaming others please, there is no need for that.
Last edited by rastanplan; 10/24/19 09:29 AM.
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In all honesty, I don't think you set rookie records and then all of a sudden have a long ways to go until you turn the corner.
That article is also from a month ago. Just FYI.
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In all honesty, I don't think you set rookie records and then all of a sudden have a long ways to go until you turn the corner.
That article is also from a month ago. Just FYI.
RG3, Vince Young, Carr, Luck ... Mentally, there is a lot to overcome being a star... some can and others can't...
Last edited by rastanplan; 10/24/19 09:50 AM.
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I specially like the part where they say Baker is not missing explosive plays by that much... PFF has a Baker crush... they always had. Unfortunately I don't think Baker is that close on turning the corner.. it will take some time. First off... thanks to vers for posting that article. That was a fun read. rasta, When the author said he's not missing explosive plays by much, I immediately thought of the dropped balls (Calloway TD-turned-INT, a couple dropped OBJ balls, and the Ratley one mentioned in the article). Author isn't wrong. Our vaunted receiving corps has let us down (not as much as Baker or Freddie, but there have been big plays where they were the weak link). I'm not sure if this is what the author meant when he made that statement, but that's how I see it. On the other hand I can recall a significant number of plays where our WR bailed him out... Just consider the number of times he throws into double and triple coverage... Yes the author is wrong, we have one of the best WR's in the league, that is quite evident... Baker is not playing well, no sugarcoating or blaming others please, there is no need for that. Pointing out that responsibility lies one more than 1 person is not sugarcoating. And I'm not blaming the receivers. Baker has played poorly (which I mentioned in the middle of my post). It blows my mind how some on here can watch a game and say it is 1 person's fault, and that (apparently) pointing out other areas that should be improved is somehow absolving the other of all responsibility. I've never been able to accomplish that leap in logic.
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
-PrplPplEater
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Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 2,307
Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 2,307 |
Sorry, IMHO Baker bad play is only his fault...
The fact others can help is a different matter, Baker is playing bad and its his fault.
Other thing are the Browns losing, now there Baker isn't the only responsible, not even the most responsible, that would be Kitchens.
Last edited by rastanplan; 10/24/19 09:52 AM.
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Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 55,499
Legend
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OP
Legend
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 55,499 |
I am interested to see what the Browns coaching staff has done during the bye week. I mentioned that quicker plays would be smart in the Keys to the Game thread. I read something that I believe Grateful posted about how Joe T and Hawk alluding to the Browns practicing quicker plays.
I think it is becoming apparent that Baker really does struggle going through his progressions and seeing the field. So, while it is not ideal, it would be wise to treat him as a system qb for the remainder of this year. Adjust the scheme and play calling to plays that are not asking him to be a cerebral qb. I think that would take a lot of pressure off of our OL and not expose the issues are OTs have.
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Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 2,307
Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 2,307 |
I am interested to see what the Browns coaching staff has done during the bye week. I mentioned that quicker plays would be smart in the Keys to the Game thread. I read something that I believe Grateful posted about how Joe T and Hawk alluding to the Browns practicing quicker plays.
I think it is becoming apparent that Baker really does struggle going through his progressions and seeing the field. So, while it is not ideal, it would be wise to treat him as a system qb for the remainder of this year. Adjust the scheme and play calling to plays that are not asking him to be a cerebral qb. I think that would take a lot of pressure off of our OL and not expose the issues are OTs have. WCO without a cerebral QB does not work very well... That's why I think we went for the Air Raid.. Hope I'm wrong. Work on the screens, that would be a major improvement, just to have that working and making D's pay for blitzing.
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