DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Browns need an Offensive Coordinator...

That's just it Mac, your only issue seems to be that he's inexperienced. Summing up your argument if I may, you don't want Davidson as the OC because he's inexperienced,,,, Well heck, everyone is inexperienced at one time or the other...

I would hope that you would allow him to install his system and allow it to mature before you decide he's not the answer as the OC.

Like I said, if at this time next season, we are in the same boat, then I'll look you up and tell you that you read all the signs correctly and that your a genuis,,,

As for personal attacks, I'm sorry if I came across that way. That wasn't my intent.,,,,

[color:"gold"]EO..your entitled to your opinion, but it defies logic, IMO.

After the 2005 season, many thought Carthon was gone. I didn't hear one peep from you or anyone that Davidson should step into that job.

The Browns offense is still very poor, even with Davidson as OC. There has been no great turn around on offense since he was named OC...WHY?

Davidson's inexperienced is one factor as he is learning on the job to gain experience. I do acknowledge there are other factors too but a new OC with no experience is, 'a' part of our offensive problems.

Now I will not say that Davidson could not learn to be a good OC...but are fans willing to accept what comes with an OJT OC for another year?

The Browns offense ranks 29th overall and 29th in scoring offense with 16.1 points per game.

I have little doubt that Davidson could help our offensive line's performance if he went back to the coaching position he was hired for. But as a NFL offensive coordinator, Davidson is an unknown quality and the Browns would be taking a risk that Davidson can improve this teams offense next season.

Going back to my question about, what if Carthon had left after last season and the Browns were looking to replace him....

Some believe that Savage would turn to Lerner and Crennel and say lets promote a guy who has never been an OC at any level of football, and let him have the OC job....I find that to be quit a stretch.

I understand the choice of Davidson when the job was opened in the middle of the season as the only OCs available at that time, were the ones already fired by other NFL teams.

I honestly believe the Browns should look for an experienced man for the job once the season is over.
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[color:"gold"]Experience does matter, especially in the coaching ranks.

Right now is the time for the Browns to be discussing this same subject. Do we keep Davidson or try to hire the best available OC? The best available coaches are gonna be snatched up quickly.

"If" the Browns are going to hire a new OC they should have their list now and be lining up interviews were they can.

How important is it for the Browns to hire the right offensive coordinator?

The success or failure of the Browns 2007 season depends on the franchises ability to upgrade their offense, both in players and coaching positions.

Crennel's job could very well be on the line and the offensive coordinator could play a huge role in this teams ability to win football games.

One more failed season like the last two and Lerner might very well clean house and start all over again.

That's how important the Browns 2007 offense will be.

Crennel can have influence on the defensive side of the equation as his experience is on the defensive side but he appears to depend solely on the OC to develop the offensive part of the equation.

Is Davidson good enough?...

...that is an unknown at this time...
...and Crennel would be gambling his future on an 'unknown'...

I will accept whatever the Browns decide to do at the OC. Crennel probably knows more about Davidson's abilities than anyone as they have coached on the same coaching staff since 2001.

That discussion and decision will be made at a pay grade much higher than mine as I'm just a life long Browns fan.

I can't remember, is Gruden an offensive or defensive minded coach?

I'm not saying that he'll definitely be fired, but the thought just intrigued me a little bit if he wouldn't be there next year.

He's from Sandusky, and I think his style coaching would be good for people like Braylon and Kellen.

Hope I don't get steamrolled for this one...

Gruden is an offensive coach......and if he is fired, he won't be a coordinator. He would wait for another head position, which no doubt would come.

[color:"red"]"EO..your entitled to your opinion, but it defies logic, IMO."

[color:"orange"]It defies logic that he would have been the front runner <img src="/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Now you wonder why nobody wants to debate you...btw I had an earlier post defending Davidson as our OC as well...you skipped right over it too.

As for my logic...yeah I know making him our Asst. Head Coach when the Jets made overtures to him as their OC...just defies all logic that he would have been our obvious front runner.

Why do I bother... <img src="/images/graemlins/rolleyes1.gif" alt="" />

The Browns offense lacks a idenity......its dead last in the AFC in most rushing categories. If you don't run the ball in the NFL, you don't win.
23 carries a game doesn't cut the mustard. 7 TDS on the ground...Half the NFL RB's have at least that much.
Every Browns OC ever employed since 1999,its their 1st OC position on the NFL level. Does it make too much sense to hire a OC with 5 years under his belt?
And it doesn't matter who was calling plays for the Browns this year,how can you justify putting the ball in the hands of Darnell Dinkins and Terrell Smith.
Oooh that tricky Jeff Davidson......
and yet Josh Cribbs has only touched the ball on offense a whopping total of 12 times.
Is it too difficult to get a screen pass to Jerome Harrison and let him do some things in space?
Hey did anyone notice the Lawrence Vickers sighting last week..Better call Art Bell.
Jeff Davidson is clueless. 3rd and 32 and he runs a direct snap to Dennis Northcutt. 3rd down and Darnell Dinkins drops a pass in Pittsburgh..wheres Hello... Steve Heiden?
goodbye Jeff..hello ESTABLISHED offensive coordinator....

I didn't read all the way through this one so sorry if I missed something...

I don't care about inexperience if it's balanced. There are no positions of importance that have any experience doing what they are doing prior to their jobs with the Browns...Savage, Crennel, Davidson, Grantham.

I agree with Daman that people have to start somewhere, but I also believe we need to bring in an experienced OC.

Look what it's done for the 49ers.

[color:"gold"] EO...I just got to this website. Had it not been for Jules telling me where everyone went, I would not be here.

This it the very first thread I have started for debate.

As for those not wanting to debate me, could be because some don't know I'm an old timer or that the old timers know that I don't back down from anyone..thus I will debate you.

It really does not matter to me if anyone supports my point of view but I will not change my point of view unless someone makes a good argument based on sound logic. You have not done that, IMO.

Davidson would not have been a front runner, IMO.

Absolutely no OC experience...nothing but offensive line and TE experience and only on the job as our Oline coach for 1 season and his first season of not being an assistant Oline coach.

Yea, sure, that's who Savage should have hired as OC, had Carthon been let go after last season ended. [/color]



[color:"gold"]EO..how many other teams went after Davidson to be their OC?

Mangini knew Davidson from their time together with the Patriots and with the Jets trying to assemble a coaching staff and the pickens for OC slim, it is not a shock that the Jets made a run at Davidson...not because of his record an OC, but because they "knew" each other and Mangini thought Davidson had the potential to grow into an OC.

The Jets were starting anew and Davidson would not have the pressure to produce quickly as the Jets franchise was just beginning their rebuilding program.

But the Browns are already two years into their rebuilding program, and the Browns were forced to find someone to step in quickly when Carthon was let go 7 games into the season, so we handed the OC job to Davidson.

When Crennel decided to retain Carthon for the 2006 season instead of cutting his losses after the 2005 season, the Browns endured a set back in the rebuilding of our team and specifically, our offense.

How far back?...that depends on whether the Browns retain Davidson as OC and allow him to continue to learn at his pace...or...go out and hire someone who has experience as an Offensive Coordinator.

I believe Crennel will retain Davidson as our Offensive Coordinator and give him as much as much time as Davidson needs to learn the OC job.

Is that what's best for the Browns?

I stand by my assertion that what would be "best" for the franchise is Davidson return to coaching the Oline and the Browns hiring the best OC in country and turning the Browns offense over to him while Crennel turns all his attention to helping the defense perform better.

There really is no substitute for experience.

And EO...nothing personal and nothing wrong with disagreeing.





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Im curious as to what offensive coordinators you would have liked? Or is it more just an anti Davidson campaign and you dont really have any specific candidates who were available and would have been better. Ive seen you acknowledge the line and how it holds back the skill positions. Yet when it comes to the OC he is somehow supposed to overcome the same deficiencies? It seems as if your contradicting yourself to me.

[color:"gold"]rage...First, I already addressed this anit-Davidson BS if you would read above.

I'm have supported Davidson even before he was chosen by Crennel. I wanted him to coach the Browns offensive line since he had been an assistant line coach learning the position under the Patriots long time Oline coach, Dante Scarnecchia.

Davidson's logical next step was to step into a Oline coaching job and drop the assistant title.

Davidson has just started to learn to be a Oline coach with just 16 games experience in 2005 and 7 games in 2006. To be honest, Davidson has not yet qualified himself to be the Oline coach at the NFL level.

One and a half seasons as the Oline coach does not make one a good Oline coach. Given the Browns offensive line performance in the last 1.5 years under Davidson, he has a ways to go before I would call him a good Oline coach.

Then to jump him up to OC "permanently", with no prior experience, would defy common sense, IMO.

The key words are "EXPERIENCE" and the "RECORD" one achieves for the job they do.

I have no specific individual in mind. I'm sure that Savage could find some good candidates if asked to do so.

A couple of years ago, the Titans turned to the college ranks and hired Norm Chow from USC. His experience and record at the college level made him a good choice on paper. As it has turned out, Norm is doing alright and the Titans are seeing the fruits of their rebuilding investment as the Titans are playing 500 ball so far this season.

Norm Chow is just one example.[/color]



[color:"gold"] Your point above I have addressed in that I believe Davidson would help our Olines performance if he returned to the position the Browns originally hired him for, the Oline.

Does the performance of the Oline affect the performance of an OC?...Sure it does, to a degree.

But my point is, why compound our franchises problems by hiring an inexperienced OC who was hired to help teach our Oline.

At this moment, Davidson as OC affects two coaching position in a negative way...the OC position and the Oline position.

But the Browns had to do something to make it through the rest of season due to Carthon being let go after 7 games.

Going into next season, the Browns could bolster their Offensive line coaching/teaching if Davidson rejoins Ulenhake as the head offensive line coach which is the area of most experience for Davidson.

...AND...the Browns go out and hire an "experienced" OC who has a good "record" of success.

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[color:"orange"]Mac...just so you know - I'm not going to get into some Rock-emSock-em battle with you on this.

I don't mind others having a difference of opinion. Fine you are entitled to. And I know like wise you say that I'm entitled to one also. But when I state my opinion and you go and not debate me but state... [color:"red"]" but it defies logic, IMO."

[color:"orange"]When it comes from PURE LOGIC and answers your question that you posed.

I don't think you are looking to debate the subject.

As usual you have your mind made up and set. And anything that is presented that does not adhere to your OPINION...simply Defies Logic.

Don't give me some sad song about just coming here.

[color:"red"]"As for those not wanting to debate me, could be because some don't know I'm an old timer or that the old timers know that I don't back down from anyone..thus I will debate you."

[color:"orange"]No, its cause its simply your way or the highway and nothing else is deemed even remotely logical. Ergo - no debate Which you just illustrated.

You asked a question. I answered with nothing but "LOGIC". And fine you disagree thats your choice. But to state that my opinion "DEFIES LOGIC" is not opinion it is an UNTRUTH. Cause it could be wrong but if its anything it is LOGICAL.

JMHO

For the record Mac, I know your only a rookie on this sight,, Comments like the above by you make me wonder however... <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Look, Mangini DOES know Davidson...And yes, it's from the time they both spent with the Pats. Certainly, Like RAC, Mangini knew of Davidsons abilities, character, methods and general thinking..... if Davidson didn't fit the bill to be a first time OC, do you really think that mangini would have hired him just because he's the pickens were getting slim... NO Sir,,, I don't think so..

You didn't see Mangini or anyone else talk about Chris Palmer,,, Now he's an experienced guy,, has had some good success over the years as a QB Coach, and OC... (also had few bad ones as well) And you should remember that Belichick and RAC were also on the same staff with Palmer in either NE or with the Giants,, can't remember which,, might have been both. So Mangini has to have a line on Palmer,,,, But experience didn't come into play did it,,,,, No, It didn't.. He went after a guy he thought could help him.. Davidson.

My only point here is this, you can't possibly know FOR A FACT that davidson WAS'NT a front Runner,,, You just can't know that.. In fact, NOTHING points to that.

Sorry man,,,, I just can't see it your way.. I know your ok with that.

[color:"GOLD"] EO...so you took the "defies locic" comment "personally"?

EO...the comment was meant to be broad and not mean to reflect on any individual. Sorry you took it that way.

EO...we "disagree" on this subject. Don't make it something it is not, a personal attack on you.

We will continue to "disagree" because my logic says a guy who has never been an OC and just stepped in to fill the void left during the season...that action alone does not make him a qualified OC.

The Browns have an owner who will open his pocketbook to hire the best we can find to fill any need on this team. Why not utilize the advantage the franchise has and find an experienced, highly qualified offensive coordinator?

Now, one issue I have not spoken of is friendships. When the head coach, GM or owner fill positions with an emphasis on people they know due to past friendships, is that best for the franchise?

Should "friendships" matter more than qualifications?

I could care less about whom is who's friend as long as the job is getting done with a high degree of success or expertise. An individual's past performance "does" matter to me.

Just remember, Browns fans have the same goals for the future...that the Browns become a respected, successful franchise again, that is in a position to compete in the playoffs with a shot at a Super Bowl, year after year.

The opinions of the fans and media on just how to achieve that goal is going to differ greatly.

But keep in mind, debate over various ideas is good, not bad.
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mac, I've tried twice to use sound logic to debate you. Twice you have ignored me. I'll try again and you tell me where the logic isn't sound.



[color:"white"] Here are our problems on offense:

1] The offensive line is not very good. They lack talent. I watch our formations [this is more evident live] and I see us having to run more double tight end sets than most teams. Why? Because we need help when pass protecting and even running the ball. We also use our RBs to help pass block more than most teams. This leads to less receivers actually running a pattern, which in turn, limits where our QB can throw the ball. Yeah, they might not give up a sack, but we are being severely limited in what plays we can run.

2] Our starting OL did not play one series together during preseason. That's a problem for a line who is already lacking talent. Cohesiveness amongst the OL is huge. They must work together.

3] We don't have a RB who can create on his own. Combine that w/an inadequate OL and you cannot effectively run the ball. This further limits what an OC can do.

4] Our best skill players......Frye/Anderson, Leon, and K2 are inexperienced. They do NOT make all the sight adjustments that they need to make, and they certainly all make them at the same time. One mistake by any of these guys will lead to a play failing.

Furthermore, it is well known that neither qb sees the field all that well and that both Leon and K2 don't know the playbook as well as they should. That's another problem. It has also been noted that Leon is a poor route runner and that causes big problems for the offense in general and the QB in particular.

These are very real problems that our OC must deal with. He cannot utilize the playbook in the manner he would prefer. His playcalling options are limited. He must protect weak links and not call plays that will confuse others. These limitations hinder his effectiveness.

I am not saying that either Mo or Davidson are great or even good offensive coordinators. I'm saying that it is too hard to judge them based on all the problems we have on offense. [/color]

All valid points vers but how many 30 yard incompletion's do we have to witness on 3rd and short to question wtf are they thinking? So either they have confidence in the long ball or they're praying to catch someone sleeping. Either way it's low percentage plays being called when we need to simply move the chains. Take your shots deep when you can better afford to miss it, not when you have to make x yardage.

All I know right now is I have no confidence in this team from the HC on down and I won't until they can show they can accomplish something, anything consistently. There's a damn big hole in our bucket right now and we're leaking like a sieve. If our current coaching staff knows how to fix it, fine but nows the time to for them to step up and show they have a clue what that fix is. If they don't, cut our losses now and move on.

.. " All I know right now is I have no confidence in this team from the HC on down "

OPINION !
.. You didn't go high enough ! how about Lerner on down ! We are turning into the Lions , part two ! <img src="/images/graemlins/plthumbsdown.gif" alt="" />

[color:"GOLD"] Vers...I can't say that I disagree with much of what you wrote. Yep, we got real problems on the offensive side of the ball and there are some legit reasons they are so poor.

But, who is best qualified to handle the problems the Browns now have on the offensive side of the ball?

1) Someone who has no prior experience as an OC, who has filled in at OC for 8 games?

OR

2) Someone who has a track record of years of success as an OC? Someone experienced at rebuilding offensive programs?

I have no individual in mind for the job but the Browns could go after the best of the best available with Lerner's checkbook in hand.

It might be an established NFL OC or assistant OC willing to come to Cleveland.

It might be an OC from the college ranks, someone innovative and successful who is looking to move up.

I would hope the Browns would look at prior "experience" and the individuals "record" to help base their decision on.

I understand the issues but it comes down to who is "best qualified" to handle those issues, IMO.

I like Davidson as an Oline coach and he would only help us in his area of expertise if he went back to coaching the OLine.

As I said earlier, I wanted Davidson to come to the Browns to coach our Oline before anyone even mentioned his name. My opinion has nothing to do with liking or disliking Davidson but everything to do with who is best qualified to handle the responsibilities of fixing what is broken on the offensive side of the ball.

Whatever the Browns decide is not going to ruin my outlook on next season. No doubt, the pressure is on and most of us will be looking for a team that can about half its games next season.

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mac. what established coach would go to a team that won't even give an up and commer a chance to succeed with his own system?

I see why folks want experience, but why would they come here if we don't give anybody a chance?

Better money is usually the motivation tool that works the best.

[color:"GOLD"] Thank you Tulsa, for explaining the obvious.

There is not salary cap on a coaches and we have an owner who wants to turn this team around and has the deep pockets to help the franchise pursue the best.

Why not use that advantage to help this team bring in the best coaching staff we can assemble?

I caution Browns fans, do not fall in love with players and coaches for the wrong reasons. Each coach and each player must be judged on the body of their work or performance.

Qaulifications and past performances do matter... [/color]

I hear Mo Carthon is available.

Our OC is the least of our worries right now.
We need people that can block and tackle.

Giving us a decision based on the OC material (personnel) with which to work. we have talkers, we have droppers, we have claimers and disclaimers, an offensive line that has allowed two starting qubes to go down, no offensive continuity, no proven instinct for game adjustments, and some highly suspect football philosophy decisions about the "Big Picture" as to how the Browns sidelines ought to approach the Game. Note the stats that has generated, and see what a pile of knots we have to unravel. We have enuff troubles in Cleveopolis without the self-inflicted grief of a few unproven overhyped wannabes. Take em to task or show them the door. Too much needs fixed, and part of it is that approach to the game by our sidelines.
YO! Browns gonna get one of the final two. We been playing for a draft pick and I didn't know it! <img src="/images/graemlins/naughtydevil.gif" alt="" />

JD and Carthon seemed to have a simpleton's approach to the game. The gadget comes predictably when we have a crisis down, one of those with the feel of a potential 'gamechanger' to it. then we get one of the exotic plays, less practiced, run for . . . I am not sure. The feel seems to be, must be, we will fool them this time for sure. Or "The next draw will catch em napping for sure." Our playcalling has been ludicrous. A proven vet with the instincts of an OC are needed; hard to say if he is OK or not. All our dropped passes indicate third and longer than it should be.
YO! Browns gonna get one of the final two. We been playing for a draft pick and I didn't know it! <img src="/images/graemlins/naughtydevil.gif" alt="" />

I don't have a problem with that.

I do feel asst. coaches refelect the head coach to a degree.

If we change the coordinator position again, we might as well look for a better head coach while we are at it because a change in offensive scheme is probably as disruptive as changing the head coach.

Im just glad they didnt follow your thinking and promote the guy with the most experance on the staff RO-BO. JD will re-write the playbook in the off season to an extent. They will go and get some more talent that can play within that playbook as well as have plays that are designed around the talent we have.
Ive seen all year 3rd and short fail by run and pass. So Im not against anything. Its been hashed to death it starts with the OL but when RD trips over the hash mark while running through a hole the size of my computer desk or the QB fails to see blown coverage or just plain old make bad throws the only answer is to get better talent on the field.
I wanted Mo gone his playcalling stunk. Its was painfully obvious 50% or more of the time what the play was. At least with JD its not a obvious.
Hopefully next year the refs will stop betting against the Browns and we wont have the expected yellow flag flying in from the complete other side of the field on every good play we manage to run.
I would be willing to bet that if the RAC had went 4-12 year 1 and 6-10 year 2 instead of the other way around people wouldnt be complaining as much.
Sadly this has really put the pressure on for him to produce with what amounts to the middle of a 5year re-build. If he doesnt succeed then we may as well move the team to LA upon the total coaching staff change. They will care about the team as much as northeast OH at that point anyway.
Stay the course, get more talent, watch for improvement. Its all we have to look forward to next year which probably at our current level of talent is another 6-10 team in the making.

[color:"gold"] Peen...honestly, just how far back would this offense be if we brought in a new OC with some experience?

Last time I checked the Browns ranked 31st in overall offense.

Yea, that ranking is sure an indication we are on the right track with this playbook, right Peen?
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Yeah, look how much it affected the 49ers.

[color:"gold"]Seems that I'm not the only one with the above opinion...

ANALYSIS
Prominent changes looming for Browns
Saturday, December 30, 2006
Mary Kay Cabot
Plain Dealer Reporter
Browns coach Romeo Crennel probably will survive this dismal season, but sweeping changes are expected to be made on the offensive staff.

Crennel, in response to Internet and radio rumors that major changes are forthcoming, said Friday, "My main focus is this game, and after this game we're going to sit down and we're going to evaluate what's happened, why things happened and what we can do to improve it - and I anticipate that I'll be a part of that."

The Browns' top brass will huddle next week to make changes. The meetings will include owner Randy Lerner, General Manager Phil Savage, Crennel and possibly others. Crennel most likely will be retained, but will be asked to hire an accomplished offensive coordinator. He could be fired if one of the following happens:

No. 1. Lerner doesn't like what he hears in the meetings (i.e. Crennel is reluctant to fire certain assistants).

No. 2. A blockbuster head coach becomes available.

Blockbuster names would include Pittsburgh's Bill Cowher and Tennessee's Jeff Fisher, but neither will be available.

They're 30th in points scored, 31st in total offense, 31st in rushing offense and 31st with 39 giveaways. That's why Crennel likely will be asked to hire an offensive coordinator as soon as possible. Jeff Davidson, who replaced the fired Maurice Carthon midway through the season, earned mild praise from some corners despite being saddled with Carthon's offense, but it's expected the Browns will look for a coordinator with more experience.



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