DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Kitchen's not worried about job security.

j/c:



Dang.

Freddie acts some southern frat boy from
Ozark State College
Wearing that shirt was a reflection of his inability to be a focused mature HC.
There's a reason why hes never been a HC ever
Before in his football career
Does Tomlin or Shanahan wear shirts like that ?

This team is extremely young and learning how to win. All this panic is unwarranted. Blowing it up is asinine.

I saw a team beat up the Steelers, Blow out the best team int he AFC (Ravens), Beat the 9-3 Bills, dismantle the Dolphins and lose an ugly one on the road.....by 7 points to the Steelers.


Yeah, they are up and down, it's a rookie HC and a bunch of players under 26, that's what you get. Blowing it all up isn't the answer.

Well they lack a sense of fashion. So there's that.

Tomlin only trips players on kickoffs, so no, he would not have worn that shirt.

IMO, Ravens game will be the tell tale of Kitchens future with the organization.

Tony Dungy for 2020 and beyond!!

Kitchens and Dorsey will be here in 2020.

When we were winning three in a row, the anti-kitchens chatter died down. Lose in Pitt, it heats up again. I wanted to keep GW and have said it many times, but that didn’t happen and now I believe he deserves at least another year.

Coaches CAN improve.

When the Browns lose to the Bengals that will seal Kitchens fate. He’ll be gone 2 hours after the last game.

this was in reference to Freddie reporting to Dorsey so Dorsey could keep him on a short leash and fire him when a better hc comes available or take the credit if Freddie did well.

Unlike baby Hue who reporting to Jimmy Dean.

And rightfully so. The reason the chatter picked back up is because there is zero excuse for that performance. We grind out a tough win against Buffalo, push the Steelers around, perform exactly how we were expected to against the Dolphins... then we rewind the whole daggone thing 4+ weeks. We should have been past every single issue we saw last weekend by now. It’s like Freddie and this team have a set goal, they reach it, but then think they’ve made it and try to go on autopilot.

If Freddie’s issue was technical in nature, like trying to install a complicated offense, ok, I see the argument for suffering through his learning curve. But his learning curve includes his own maturation. Any improvement we may see there has come after he’s been dragged kicking and screaming like a 4 yr old who doesn’t want to take a bath.

Freddie doesn’t know how to lead. Plain and simple. Instead of defining a team identity and demanding his players be held to that, he went the route of “you be you, I’ll be me”. I wouldn’t be surprised if he had a “only God can judge me” tattoo.

No it didn't and it wouldn't die even if we won...This team can only win easy games.

Once the magic is broken its never going to come back.

Both kitchens and Baker will have a hard time getting people back on their side of the fence, and they only have themselves to blame for that.

The only way I could swallow keeping Kitchens for another year is if:

"He is forced to give up play calling and actually hire an OC Not named Todd Monken"

Its obvious Kitchens is completely overwhelmed calling plays. We need an experienced guy calling plays.

If Kitchens agrees to hiring an experienced OC and hands over play calling duties. I'd be ok with giving him another year.

Norv Turner will probably be available this offseason, and he knows how to run the ball and take advantage of top tier talent like Hunt, Chubb, Landry, and OBJ. He is respected around the league, guys will buy in. He could also be a very good mentor to Kitchens. Make it happen or fire Freddie and hire Ron Rivera.

j/c

I've concluded that Freddie just isn't the guy. It was a gamble that didn't pay off. His stubbornness will lead to his firing.

When you have Chubb and Hunt in the backfield and run the ball only six times in the second half...against a blitz-crazy defense...with an OL that has 3 out of 5 of guys who are average-only-on-a-good-day...you won't fix that stubbornness with continuity.

When your best receiver essentially runs the wrong route at the end of the biggest game of the year...in GAME #12 no less...leading to a game-ending int...you won't fix that with continuity.

When your super star receiver can't line up properly...or run the route properly...or catch the ball with more than one hand...you won't fix that with continuity.

When the play-caller insists on running empty backfield sets...with Chubb and Hunt on the roster...against a blitz-crazy defense...with a crap O Line...you won't fix that stubbornness with continuity.

The only reasonable way to keep Freddie is to essentially neuter him. If you have to neuter your head coach, you won't fix that with continuity.

Next man up.

I see a team making the same exact mistakes week in and week out. I see a stubborn HC that refuses to admit the mistakes they are making, or take accountability for them. I see a HC who says one thing, and does another. I see a HC who is not utilizing the best players on his team in an effective way. I see a team that has lost to MULTIPLE rookie undrafted FA QBs. I see a team that has literally BLOWN several games. I see a team that doesn't have the mental compacity to overcome any type of obstacles or hurdles. I see a weak, ineffective HC, a weak ineffective structure, and a weak ineffective organization.

Coaches can improve, you are absolutely right. But they have to be willing that they need to improve. Freddie, for as good a guy he is - is stubborn as a mule. How many times has he said they need to run Chubb in certain instances only to the throw the very next week in the same circumstance? How many times does Freddie have to call the same stupid looking plays that don't work? How many times does he have to try to fit a square peg in a round hole?

Coaches can improve, but they have to be willing to change.

Compared to some of the other stuff you've posted, I can see how your Norv comment flew under the radar...

Norv is probably one of the few good vet coaches that we DON'T want here. He's shown he's not HC material in San Diego, and he's exactly what this offense does NOT need (pass happy, hanging his Oline out to dry).

Just one comment:

Success is almost never linear. There are almost always fits and starts .... ups and downs. Even Bill Belichick had his struggles when he was here.

At some point we have to be willing to grow with a coach. No team in the NFL has been better at blowing things up. During that time, it's about the only thing we've been good at. It's time to actually grow a coach, instead of starting over once more.

This is the heart of it. I was all for keeping a winless Hue because of this concept and the lack of talent on the roster. With Freddie it's the same but different - performance of the more talented team doesn't warrant a vote for continuity, but the fact that he is learning and changing roles and responsibility (drastically) the *hope* is he improves.

I've said for several weeks now that i need to see improvement week to week from Freddie the Head Coach and play caller - at this point it is really tough to see much if any. For me to want Freddie back next year we need to improve on offense - consistency and balance between run/pass ... and better game management, prep and discipline/leadership. I hope it happens - I'm worried like many, that we'll continue to play 'well' against the bad teams and then struggle against average/good teams. imo Freddies future very much depends on the performances in these last games. Seasons over but a ton to play for.

Get G.williams back or try to get Urban Myer and please get rid of the buffoon Freddie please. Hey J.D. admit your mistake and move on its that simple. j\c

That could be quite the commitment. Freddy might be able to become as mature as my 10 year old daughters in 4 or 5 years if he really works at it.

j/c...

Well put in this snippet from The Athletic...

A 5-7 record with the losses this team has taken (Denver, the Steelers with a quarterback named Duck and some other backups playing) indicate a lack of a winning culture in the building.

Culture doesn’t come from the coach who is hired, or the GM who is brought in, or the analytics guy or the media approach or the uniforms (which are about to change, again).

Culture comes from within, and it starts with ownership setting a tone and standard for what the team wants, expects and will tolerate. Ultimately, the owners are responsible for everything that takes place. It’s their team. The GM and coach and players who join the team join the culture established by ownership. With the Browns, the culture and commitment and standards change every time the coach or GM changes.

Baltimore and Pittsburgh have culture and commitment established over years. When Mike Tomlin became coach, he adjusted to the Rooneys’ approach; the Rooneys did not adjust to him. Through different GMs in Baltimore, the Ravens’ approach has stayed rock-solid. Those teams choose players who fit what they want, expect and demand. They make concessions for greatness — Antonio Brown comes to mind — but even the Steelers reach their limit.

The Browns lack no clear, apparent direction or culture fostered from within that involves a commitment to how to win, the players needed to win and the kind of people the organization wants to win.

It’s not enough to say the team wants talent. It needs players who fit a culture and mesh into a team.

Hopefully we didn't get ourselves into a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation.

I'm not thrilled with Kitchens going forward. I'm also not thrilled with moving on and having Baker and the young guys on their fourth head coach and offensive staff in three seasons.

Guess we'll see what happens the rest of the season and go from there.

I think there are more tangible reasons we can point to than just 'culture'. Note that I'm not completely discounting that. I actually do think the Steelers have a much better culture (from ownership, to front office, to head coach, etc.) and there players just seem to 'get it' more.

However.

I challenge somebody to dig up the tape from an old Browns vs Steelers matchup. Any game from the last twenty years ought to do. What I want you to do is just look at the players. Don't even worry about who the coach or the QB is, or the big names on the rosters. Just look at the players.

What I see twice a year, every year, is one team that looks like a professional football team (that is the Steelers, in case you aren't following.) Their arms tend to be bigger and more shredded, they are more physically imposing, and their body language and demeanor reflect this. They play rough and physical, sometimes crossing the line into dirty.

Meanwhile the Browns look more like a rag tag bunch. They're small and lean, or big and fat, but almost never big and lean. They don't seem to play with much fire, or take up for each other much. There are exceptions.

I don't know exactly why this is the case, I just know it's true. Maybe it's player acquisition (targeting players with certain body types or habits), or diet/nutrition/supplements/"super supplements", or strength and conditioning, or what have you.

What I do know is that the Browns are never going to consistently beat the Steelers until they can match this. Doesn't matter how much more talent they supposedly have because the Browns never even come close to maximizing the talent they do have.

(By the way, the Ravens are much closer to the Steelers in this regard and the Bengals are much closer to the Browns.)

Add in actual leadership in the organization and how can anybody expect different results? Rooney, Colbert, and Tomlin make a great trifecta, probably second only to Kraft, Caserio, and Belichick up in New England. On the other hand, we have the Haslams, Dorsey, and Kitchens. Are you really confident the Haslams and Freddie Kitchens are the answer? Even Dorsey is burning through his football cred very fast.

You are wanting it both ways. I, nor you know what is going on inside the office in Berea. I am pretty sure the Haslams meet with Dorsey on a regular basis. They probably talk with Freddie.

Dorsey is over football operations. The Haslams aren't going to walk in and fire Freddy. They are going to talk with Dorsey and find out if he thinks this is going to work or ask why it isn't.

They aren't going to fire Dorsey today.

I don't know that Freddie is calling bad plays other than he like to pass too much...ironic sine he was a running backs coach. All I remember was Freddie and Monken were going to meld their systems and for a new one. I think that is what doesn't work.

I think when the season ends Freddie is going to see the light one way of the other he needs to give up playcalling. As head coach he can always influence it. I am not sure if we retain Monken or look elsewhere. Probably retain him with him calling plays.

I think we almost have to roll with Kitchens for another year. This is just an old philosophy of mine, a coach should always get at least two years, barring some major scandal or something along those lines.


This makes a lot of sense and I agree. I hate to bring this up, and I know I'm going to get blasted for it, but I'm going to say it anyway.

Bringing back Hue for that third season-- Baker's rookie season-- looks to be one of the most boneheaded and catastrophically inept front office decisions ever.

It's hard to overstate how incredibly bad of an idea that was, to saddle our rookie #1 overall pick with that nonsense. Baker is already on his THIRD head coach and offensive coordinator in his second season. Move on from Kitchens and he'll be on his fourth.

Ugh, makes me sick just thinking about it. It reminds me of Alex Smith having seven offensive coordinators in seven years or whatever it was. That's so stupid. QBs need to learn and perfect the system they are in over a period of years, or in some cases even decades (New England).

We always hear about the importance of getting the QB right, but rarely hear about the importance of getting the coach right.. at least not on the timescale we're talking here.

With our ravaged DL with no depth and no Myles Garret I won’t be one bit suprised if the Bengals don’t beat us atleast once

Andy Dalton stinks only because he sucks when pressured. Since the Browns have no pass rush now Dalton will probably have a big game. Any QB in this league can beat you when you can’t pressure them.

There are a lot of bad teams in the NFL this year and the Browns are one of those teams. We couldn’t even beat a Steelers team playing mostly backups and practice squad guys on offense.

Both Dorsey and Kitchens need to go but it will take another 18 or so months from Jimmah to figure this out

The Bengals oline is pretty abysmal, especially for passing.

I don't know about canning Freddie, but I wouldn't mind a little coaching shakeup.

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/2820...ach-josh-mccown

It won't happen, but I'd love to see McCown always in the ear of our young FQB.

Here's something everyone should realize by now. This team will never be good under the Haslams. They are the worst of the worst. And if that's not enough when they decide to hang them up, they're going to turn it over to their idiot son-in-law.

Go Browns!

Minor correction, Bone. Dorsey's official title is General Manager, not Head of Football Operations.

https://www.clevelandbrowns.com/team/front-office-roster/

I agree with all of this, and everything else you stated.

Question to you would be, do you think Freddie is the guy to do put the players and Baker in that place to get the most from them?

I don't.

Unless you consider hiring Dorsey as the reason we struggled this year, I'm not sure what the Haslam's have to do with it.

As far as I know, they stayed out of it and let him go get the players he wanted, make the trades he wanted, and just wrote checks... if you know otherwise, I'd be glad to listen.

As for it always being this way... the Rooney's made the playoffs 1 time in the first 40 years that the Rooney's owned the team, they were pretty much perennial laughingstock in the NFL.. then one day that miraculously changed and now they are viewed as the model of stable, consistent, and successful ownership... The Haslams are in what, year 7?

Now I'm not saying I'm anxious to wait another 30 years for success or that I think it should take that long.. but I still believe we are a piece away from being great right now and that piece is the coach.. either Freddie maturing quickly into the position or being replaced.. and as far as I know, that decision, lies almost exclusively with Dorsey.

Some how the Bengals passing game looked decent
Vs a Gregg Williams defense last week