DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Carolina Panthers fire Ron Rivera

I know a lot of fans that do not post here....

In all fairness, it's a hyperbole... but it's more of the point that some here and others I know who aren't "here" want Kitchens gone and those are some of the ones who said we were 2-3 years from the playoffs.

With your list, I think there's always an issue of not giving the HC enough time or the HC and front office were not on the same page.

I really wish Lerner would have stayed the course with Mangini and not hired Holmgren. I think our recent history would be vastly different.

On that list, I can't think of too many times we had a GM who hired the HC and gave him time. Firing Kitchens would be no different.

We've been an ever changing franchise and we're all impatient for wins. No doubt.

I'd have to think that Freddie isn't going anywhere.

Without the benefit of hindsight, I don't think I would be able to argue the Holmgren move. Mangini was absolutely decimating this roster in terms of talent. He was basically doing a Sashi, just unintentionally.

Then you have Holmgren, at a point when nobody realized he was completely useless, come in and attempt a traditional setup. Remembering what the mangini years were like, I would've had a hard time stomaching that for much longer and passing up a more normal fo.

Simply looking at the W-L record in this case doesn't really matter.

If we were a team that was getting better, improving, and fixing mistakes I would be ok with another year after 8-8

But look at the freaking list of things that have gone on this year (what it up to 20), you have to look at the reasons WHY we are where we are. And you have to look at as "is Freddie getting better". He is not.

As far as Mangini is concerned I would have him coach, not acquire players.

Mangini was hired prior to the GM being hired.

We went from 2-6 to 5-7. I'd qualify that as getting better.

Baker's numbers have also improved and we've played some of the toughest defenses in recent weeks.

compared to last year, with more talent, we have not gotten better. Neither has baker.

You can try to twist whatever you want. The facts are this team has regressed, our QB has regressed, and we have MASSIVELY underperformed with the level of talent we have.

True, but that wasn't the situation. While I don't presume to know anything about anybody associated with that FO, rumors swirled that Mangini was a know-it-all control freak. The story was he wouldn't have wanted a new GM brought in (replacement for Kokinis) to be his boss. My post was in response to using the benefit of hindsight to say that we should've never hired Holmgren. Obviously we all know that that is a true statement (we should not have hired him), but I argue the implied part of the statement that we should've known.

Good points.

I agree with you about Mangini actually. Good coach, very intelligent, ran highly organized/efficient practices (maybe to a fault.. is that possible?) I think there were some issues there behind the scenes that weren't made public.

Chud should have gotten at least a second year. Kitchens should too.

I don't necessarily disagree, and I completely disagree with the notion that Dorsey hired Kitchens knowing he could struggle this year because he's a first year head coach. Expectations were high and among others, Dorsey had visions of a division title.

The problem is that it happened. Do you stay the course or find a new coach who may or may not see better results?

My biggest concern for this franchise aside from the owner isn't the head coach, but the GM at this point. I've raised my concerns on other threads.

I backed Holmgren when he was here, but I wasn't necessarily on board for the hire.

If you think about Holmgren's past, there's no way we should have hired him for the position. He failed as GM in Seattle and actually relinquished the position.

A lot of moves we've made were to bring excitement to this franchise. Hiring Holmgren, drafting Johnny. It's a business. These acquisitions sold tickets.

I just wish we would do it right instead of trying to just sell tickets.

Agreed. Dorsey didn't make the trades of current and future assets (namely a first round pick) and young players for high-priced players in 2019 just to settle for Kitchens struggling in his first year and punting 2019 essentially.

Dorsey hired Kitchens believing he would be a good head coach to win THIS year.

Whoever says otherwise is only fooling themselves.

yep, this team was built to start winning now. Anything short of atleast a playoff berth and you haven't moved forward on the progress made last year. We didn't have this much drama during 1-15 and 0-16. It's appalling and direct reflection of the culture Freddie and Dorsey have built. If Dorsey makes the right call and replaces freddie as a failed experiment I'd have more respect for him than him keeping him and letting his ego get in the way of what's best for the team. He deserves a do over since he's never hired a coach before..Maybe this time he'll trust his team when they recommend someone

I completely agree with you on this.

I don't know if replacing Freddie is the right call or if he is a failed experiment though he has looked like trash. However, I do know that Dorsey has punted seemlingly important players and a coach within a very short time period in while in his position as GM. Not carryovers.

Coaches: Haley (signed on in 2018)
Players: Corbett (2018), Avery (2018), Calloway (2018).

Haley was half a season.

It's more on the players' side than the coaches, but the precedence is there.

I'd understand to a degree if Kitchens is retained.
I'd understand firing him as well.

Either way, this current dynamic doesn't look very promising at this point in time.

It sometimes surprises me how much blind faith people are putting in our GM.

I've seen people say Baker isn't the guy and Freddie isn't the guy. I've read on here that Ward is a bust and the ONLY pick we got right is Nick Chubb, yet Dorsey is still a star GM.

From some of the things I've been a witness to in recent years, the long term prognosis of this franchise concerns me. We aren't building for the future, we are building for today. I don't necessarily have an issue with this, but we are failing in all facets.

Including the owner, the one guy everyone has put their faith in, is also the guy who put us in the spot.

The only thing I might want to argue is the Haley hiring/firing. Haley was hired as a supplement to the Hue coaching staff. I really don't think he lost much sleep tossing Haley out with Hue. Not the same thing as hiring a new HC, imo.

I understand that angle. But he was the only one let go. Now, there were clear issues between Hue and Haley, but he easily could have been retained like the others to ride out the season.

But there is more evidence on the player side than the coaching side, yes. I guess my point is, that doesn't seem like Dorsey has a problem moving on from someone.

The larger issue, to me, is the initial decision by Dorsey in the first place.

I put my blind faith in Dorsey.

I don't think Baker is a bust. He's working through a slump/regression and a dumb offensive scheme. If you put the bust label on every QB as soon as they hit their sophomore slump, there wouldn't be any QBs in the NFL.

Dorsey owns Calloway and Corbett as far as busts go (and Calloway was a calculated gamble). We spent a 4th for a 1st-round talent.

Calling Baker, Ward, and even Freddie a bust before they're even done with their second season is ridiculous.

I think time will tell on Dorsey. The truth is we all probably were too high on him in year one. It's always easy to be misled by the performance of a GM when a franchise shifts from 'asset accumulation' mode to 'asset spending' mode. It's more common to see this in the NBA but it does happen in the NFL too. These Browns are an example.

That said, he did a lot of good things that first year. Now some of it is falling back to earth and there have been no shortage of issues this season. Trading away a good O-lineman only to see that unit struggle, Callaway cut, Randall's issues, Baker regressing, and so on.

What to make of all of it? As said earlier, time will tell. It's not like we are going to move on from Dorsey after this season.

That said, he's going to have to put a winning team on the field sooner rather than later. He has had the tools to make things work. He had the draft picks and 9-figures of cap space to build the team how he sees fits. This is his QB, taken with the #1 overall pick, and his head coach who he threw his weight around for. The results are on him.

I think Haley was brought in here to be the HC. I think Haley acted a fool, and showed himself the door.

Aside from being the one that hired our current coach, most of this stuff doesn't fall on Dorsey. JD navigated us out of NFL roster talent hell. Yes, he was given a boatload of assets from Sashi (which he accumulated by record-level losing), but he made solid choices with the majority of those assets. He's also not done. Even if you don't want Dorsey here, there's no way with Haslam's track record that you trust we can find someone that will do a better job.

Dorsey saw Corbett and Calloway weren't working out, and fixed that. While I feel differently about what we should do with Freddie every day, I think Dorsey will figure it out.

I don't want to move on from Dorsey. What I said was time will tell on his performance. This may still take years.

Also, the things I listed *are* on Dorsey. A lot of things that are put on the coach are also influenced by what players they are given in the first place. If you trade for a diva, and he continues to act like a diva, that is more on the GM than it is on the coach.

There are different ways to build a team and different philosophies to evaluating players. Dorsey-- both in his time with KC and here-- clearly prioritizes physical talent over bringing in smart/disciplined players. I'm not saying that's right or wrong; it's just an observation.

When some of those physical gifted, but undisciplined players start acting up, that comes with the territory.

John Dorsey's record here is 12-15-1. We're 5-7 this season. I'm certainly willing to give him time to improve (it's much better than what we had before) but I will never be satisfied with a losing record.

It's all good. Some people believe in moral victories. I just happen to not be one of them.

That I can agree with.

Dorsey could go a long way toward fixing this team by just getting some more talent on the O-line, and chilling out on players with real character concerns. Get guys in here who are professionals, will work hard, and play as a team and that'll go a long way toward fixing the discipline/culture of the franchise. Freddie needs to do a better job too.

I guess Dorsey is fooling himself?

“I ask the fans to exercise a degree of patience,” he said. “We are building this thing to last 10 years, not just have one good year.” - John Dorsey.

Maybe it's you who are fooling yourself?

We have one of the highest cap spends in the league this year, despite several key players being on cost-controlled rookie contracts. We've made trades to win now (OBJ) and even in the past (Tyrod Taylor). We're clearly trying to win now.

That said, the team is still in good shape cap wise due to carryover, we still have all of our future picks, plus some mid-late rounders from other teams. So I think there are elements of truth to both.

What is probably the funniest thing to me is it's not like you sign players to one year deals. It's not like they're leaving next year. You sign them usually to three and four year deals.

Unless of course you see that player as a band aid. Like he sees Robinson. People act as though he doesn't see the issue there but the contract makes it obvious he does.

There are too many people around here with "Rome was built in a day" syndrome.

Dorsey's words say one thing...his actions say another.

j/c...

My oh my, has Dorsey learned to not set expectations in his short time as GM. Better to error on the side of caution when it's your fingerprints on the product! ....

"I believe we have to be competitive in the AFC North and my total objective going into the '18 season is to win the AFC North. Anything else to me is unacceptable.'' - John Dorsey

There's a better quote for you Pitdawg!

As I said...."fooling themselves".

I love the issue you always have with my sigs. [sarcasm]It's the one thing in life that keeps me going.[/sarcasm]

Once you accept mediocrity you will never improve.

I simply like how you have to walk everything back from the quotes you use. Pointing that out is, honestly, a ton of fun. I cannot lie.

Empty rhetoric must be your cup of tea.

Dorsey plainly said that losing is unacceptable but to be patient.

What should he say" "If we lose I accept that"?

You lack of comprehension here is remarkable. But you go on with your bad self.

Dorsey didn’t just say losing was unacceptable. He set a specific expectation and said anything short of that is unacceptable. If there was ever a time for us as fans to be patient on the way to meeting his stated expectations it would be the beginning of the season when a young team is likely to have the hardest time gelling.

And for arguments sake, let’s say Dorsey didn’t have such lofty intentions and was prepared for a rocky of not brutal season. This team has since clearly shown it has the talent and ability to be better than it has been. When a team has that much potential it’s unacceptable for the HC to be the one holding success back.

Sound advice. Tired of listening to a bullet list of explanations and regret. We seem pretty sure in hindsight during interviews, know what we need moving forward. We should. It is the same list from about 6 weeks prior.

It is OK to tackle first. Pound this group. Find more than you have managed.

You hit the nail on the head. When/if FK is relieved of his duties, that bolded statement above will be the summation of the reason.

Everyone I know with a competitive nature sets goals. They also have realistic expectations. Dorsey stated both. One doesn't trump the other one.

Randall has to be intentionally working his way out of Cleveland. I refuse to believe he's just naturally this much of a clown.