DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum John Dorsey

And I'm fascinated with people that what Dorsey out... like we had any other GM that got Vernon, Landry,OBJ caliber players..

I forget, people here still hate Butch Davis too...

The only time things went well, there was a group here, because everyone knew Hue wasn't going to last as HC forever.
The only time things went well, let's see if I recall,
Hue, Gregg Williams, (forget the offensive coord),
Haley was here,
Al Saunders, and Ken Zampese, and somebody had special teams duties, doesn't matter,

But they had more people, So what about this,

----

Freddie comes back as Head coach, because continuity and all,
Wilks comes back as Def. Coord, but a young guy is also brought in as a "special assistant" or "consultant"

Somebody has to go, now I don't know what each guy does, but I do feel, there ain't No WAY, anyone can say this team has followed One STRATEGY since 2016, but Depodesta has been titled, "chief strategy officer" since about that time, .. the strategy has changed like 7 times, the whole freakin boats direction, in that time frame.

So Freddie as HC, Wilkes as DC, Monken still around in some role, maybe Monken can become "Chief Strategy officer" let DePodesta transition to a back seat advisory role.

But!
Hire Tom Coughlin as some role with the words "Game Preparation" in it,
let him do whatever, Todd Haley did, because

literally what did Todd Haley do in his time in Cleveland except be the Head coach in waiting: that didn't get hired as head coach but sent packing with the old one.

Then. Bring in a young apprentice on both the offensive, and defensive sides of the ball, in coach advisory roles, or game preparation roles, developing a stategy for upcoming opponents,

Then.

Don't get anybody in free agency! Focus on bringing the current team back, except for 2 positions of need.

Start a campaign, (which may include up to threatening to forfeit games on principle, if the NFL doesn't reinstate Myles Garrett by... IMMEDIATELY, including training camp.

Make a conscious effort to bring back all 3 tight ends and add serious potential upgrades to the tight end position for competition to make the starters better,

Make a conscious focus to bring in better options at the Safety position, free safety, and strong safety, to upgrade performance on the field at these positions.

Leave the offensive line alone
Leave the defensive line alone

Make it a focus to commit to development of all of the current cornerbacks on your team, except maybe Redwine, or other, but I'm talking about, Mitchell, Carrie, Ward, Greedy, and any other worthy vet.

Find Marvin Lewis, and hire him as a special assistant on game day, or game preparation,

Finally, add one good runningback to your mix, (named J.K. Dobbins) and keep Chubb, Hunt, and other coming back.

Then, (this may be one of the most important)

DON'T, ... Don't just automatically give a roster spot to whatever (never has been) role player you select in the draft in the 5th, 4th, 6th, 7th, and even 3rd round!!

Players like Greedy Williams this year, should have only gotten spot playing time for 1 or 2 years, learning behind the starter, in this case Mitchell,
Until they become good enough to clearly be a better option.

And that's one thing I don't understand from the current season, how did they not always leave Mitchell when he's more experienced and Greedy doesn't tackle as well, and ins't developed enough to be left on an island yet.

So, All the coaches back,
Tom Coughlin, and Marvin lewis hired as vice presidents of game preparation, (game week, and game day)

Bring in a young apprentice at offensive coaching, and one at defensive coaching,

Campaign to Reinstate Myles Garrett, up to threatening to just forfeit games, not take the field:

Upgrade the .. O-N-L-Y, the Tight End, and Safety positions in the off season.

Add one good runningback (named J.K. Dobbins) to go into the mix of current Rb,s

Conscious effort to bring current players back, including all the corners, and Hunt, and Higgins, etc.

leave the offensive and defensive lines alone,

don't automatically give roster spots or playing time to (never yet beens) selected in the 3rd-7th round of that rookie year.

Or:

Blow everything up, emphasis on the "everything" all the coaches, all the players, all the wideouts, all the big name free agent D linemen from last year, cut ties with Garrett, everything, everything right down to the studs of the floorboards,

(( They can upgrade the OL, and DL in the 2021< (the following years) > draft))!

j/c:

Imagine being someone who takes the stance that doing commercials in the offseason is a major factor in Mayfield's issues this season.

Chiefs, Ravens, Bills, Saints, Parade, < already beaten 2 of those. Hmm.

It's a symptom, not the entire issue.

Mayfield has admitted he didn't work hard enough. Instead, he spent his time doing a myriad of other things, including commercials. It speaks to his mindset and is something easy to point out in that regard.

Mayfield spent little to no time working on his craft.

How do you know how much time he spent?

I know it was reported that he and some of the receivers got together a few times in the off season, so they did spend time making your though of "no time" pure fabrication.

Just saying.

Quit stalking me.

I actually agree with you. I think it is a symptom. I think the first sign of this symptom was showed back in his rookie year when Hue asked Baker what is it that he's doing to perfect his craft? (ie comparing Tyrod Taylor being at the building first thing in the morning - and I can assume that Baker wasn't based on that convo). You're a rookie, and think a starting spot is just gonna be handed to you, but you're not even the 1st one in the building? #cmonson

Baker has the mindset and mental toughness to be great... but its not gonna come without effort. He needs to take some cliff notes from some of the greats. This video here had me in absolute aww.. I mean a QB who has been playing in the league for years... practicing like this... like wow. Reggie Bush's words are everything here too.

You say "actually agree" with you as if it was painful. LOL

Definitely not, lol. Just saying it as I know any opinion that has any connotation of talking bad against Baker gets frowned upon.

The guy has serious work he has to put in if he wants to be great.

The part in white is true. And proven. And needs addressing if the Browns are going to bounce back next year.

The part in yellow is pure conjecture. There is a enormous gulf between "not enough time" and "little to no time" - and you have no clue what he did or didn't do other than it clearly wasn't enough.

That would make sense, if well, it was a common problem for him. Your completing leaving out the fact that Baker was probably the most accurate QB coming out of his draft. He was extremely accurate last year, and efficient.

So what changed? The only answer is the coaching staff or Lindley directly, changing his style or mechanics.

Come on, Diam - think about what you just said.

I watched last year, baker go up to the line against cincy, read the defense - audibled out of a play, then he read the defense again, and put a guy in motion to call him in as a blocker - to run the play to perfection for a TD.

he read defenses last year. You don't just STOP doing that. He can read defenses, we watched it all last year. In fact, there were many many threads on how he looked liked a 5 year vet reading them.

If you accurate your accurate. The only thing that would effect his accuracy would be if he is getting coached to QB a different way. His mechanics, footwork, etc. I don't think its Freddie for that as hes not his QB coach. I think that's on Lindley. Who Freddie has hired, so well yeah, maybe it does fall on Freddie.

Baker has had issues. We are talking about a change in his accuracy and throwing mechanics. Could it all just be from happy feet? Possibly. But I think its more to do with his feet and mechanics. Im not the type of film guy that vers, bone, or others are - so I would like their input. But his throwing motions and feet just seem off to me. That doesn't just "change" overnight. Usually, that means hes being coached to change that. muscle memory is very strong, and you have to be coached and practiced to change it.

You know this. . . .

There is a great deal of smoke out there that Zampese was very, very good for Baker's development...and that Z and FK didn't mesh well. There is equal smoke out there that Lindley is not helping Baker and that Baker and Monken don't mesh well.

Yep.

What I find most hilarious, is that i have asked multiple people on this board to answer what about Freddie has he shown this year that deserves him another look, yet other than continuity, no one has answered. . . . .

I'll answer; nothing, unless you enjoy drama and some comedy.

But hey, were the foolish ones.....

Record doesnt even mean anything for me. Heck, Hue was 1-15 and i wanted to give him another year. I was mistaken for that and wanted him canned after year two, because he never showed any progress. Players were not developing, and bad decision after bad decision was being made.

Freddie has put a subpar record together so far, but its still better than what we had seen. The problem is, take the record aside, our guys have not developed, just about every player has regressed outside of Nick Chubb. We have been probably the most disrespectful and dirty team in the NFL, as well as being undisciplined and penalized more than anyone else.

Yeah, hes got a ton going for us - sign me up for year 2!

JC

"The Mayfields filmed 20 commercials over two days about 10 days before they were married."

Anyone who thinks that had anything to do with Baker's issues at QB must believe a clogged drain sunk the Titanic.

Ok, what did he do besides a few throwing sessions in LA? There's more circumstantial evidence that he did "little to nothing" then there is he "didn't do enough".

--His own coach told him to get away from football.
--He himself shot down working with a coach.
--He got married and honeymooned. These things take time and focus.
--He said he thought it was going to be easy.
--As recent as yesterday he was commenting on how important off season reps are i.e., he didn't realize it last year.
--He made commercials.

Other than you taking issue with my choice of words, if you can produce some evidence that would cause me to reword my take, I will gladly do it. Otherwise, I stand by my "conjecture". It's a message board. It's 95% opinion and conjecture.

I don't need evidence of anything. I don't have an axe to grind against Baker - and I am not trying to suggest he did more than X number of hours.

Unless you can show me how every other QB spent their time in the off season and document their hours studying, prepping, working out, throwing, leg work, mechanics etc .... which you absolutely can't - then your request Baker or me or anyone else to document Baker's time is just one more example of your angst and agenda.

Your the one making the claim he didnt put in work and spent all his time making commercials. Its on you to back that claim. If you cannot back that claim, its simply a claim and your opinion on the matter, and far from factual.

Baker sucks. That's not an axe. It's the truth. It doesn't mean he will always suck and I hope for all of our sakes he doesn't. But right now he does. Calling it like it is isn't an agenda or an axe or anything. The emotional attachment to a player who had a very big hand in the failure of this season is confusing to me.

You actually think I don't want Baker to be good? I'm a lifelong Browns fan who is way too emotionally attached to the success and failure of this team. My mood rises and falls with the results on Sundays.

There is no agenda against Baker. My agenda is against losing. And Baker is in the top 5 reasons for this failure of a season.

I'm drawing a conclusion by the bullets I mentioned above and the play and results on the field.

If you guys believe Mayfield put in the work or underestimated the amount of work that was needed, then we disagree.

Otherwise you're getting riled up over a choice of words.

U ain’t asked me yet ... I’ve got some answers ... go ahead, ask me ... i dare u ... *L* ...

Baker has regressed. He's played really poorly in games this year. He's played okay in some games this year too. Even in the games he's played well enough in - you and others have still tried to put the blame of the loss on Baker. To me that's an agenda. I don't know if it was you or another poster that even wrote that the Defense wasn't playing well because they didn't want to play for Baker ... that concept is also an agenda driven pile of steaming donkey poo.

Looking at why Baker has played badly - why he has regressed ... that's really more important than getting on a soap box and calling him a jerk, falsely claiming he put in little to no off-season work and attributing the Defenses performance to Baker. But that's just my opinion - and since this is an opinion based board I reckon I am just as justified in that opinion as you are to your agenda driven posts.

Please, it was an open question. What has Freddie Kitchens done this year to deserve another chance?

There is nothing to be argued about Baker, its about faith and believe.

Regarding his performance he was hands down the worst QB in the league, taking into consideration the OL, receivers and RB's he had to work with.

No sugar coating please.

U know how sensitive i am ... ...

I’ll be back but it won’t be til tonight ... check back in tomorrow ...

I have no clue how hard bake worked last off season ... NONE ...

I really hope he didn’t put any work in cause if he did it hurt way more than it helped ... I’d *LOL* but its to sad to be laughed at ...

Lets hope he learns to read D’s cause right now he stinks at it and its been the downfall of many QB’s even at his talent level ... come on bake, u can do this ...

This is why the Browns continue to fail. If the results aren't what we expect there's no other option but to move on. We don't analyze why we fail, we just know that if we fail we need to change.

You know Baker "isn't the guy."
You know Baker "isn't putting the work in."
You know Baker "isn't a winner."
You know Baker "talks too much."

That's not telling it how it is, that's an agenda.

There's a list of quarterbacks who sucked in their first two years and went on to have excellent careers. It starts with Drew Brees and ends with Steve Young.

I think with the proper coaching Baker will be just fine. He was too good his 1st season to just regress as badly as he did. Maybe it's coaching (best reason) or could it possibly be an injury no one is talking about? There was talk of an injury earlier in the year.

Maybe we will (I also believe in that) but maybe he wont... stupid is to risk it again this year.

With a viable backup QB we would be in the playoffs...

Kizer sucked and people had no problem
I loved Rosen but he sucked and I had no problem
DA had a great year and then he sucked and people had no problem
Hoyer had a great year and then he sucked and people had no problem

Nobody had OBJ,Landry, Chubb and Hunt, and nobody has ever sucked this much before..

Superbowl MVP's have been benched playing much better than Baker is doing.

Here's what I do know Peen. Many young QB's work with specialized QB coaches during the off season. I'll use Tom House as an example. Lamar Jackson worked with Joshua Harris as his personal QB coach.

When Baker was asked about working with a personal QB coach, He referred to them as "broom sweepers" and said he didn't need one and wasn't going to work with one.

This year he has come out and said he didn't know it was going to be this hard.

What we can all hope comes from this is that he's learned his lesson and follows the example of other young QB who understand the need to focus on their craft more intently and use every resource available to improve.

Rast, just to throw this out there, how good is Gilbert? He has the size and arm strength you look for and was good in College. I realize lot's of guys have the same qualities and are never more than backups in the pros but maybe we should at least take a longer look at him. Probably a long shot though.

I tend to agree - and did agree in the past with Hue ... but 2019 - Just my opinion and analysis - the bigger issue with this team this year is Freddie not Baker.

And while I think continuity is good / needed - it needs to be based on something OTHER than continuity for the sake of it. I need to see something/anything from Freddie to make me think he can be the guy next year and the 5 after that. I have not seen that. If anything I have seen over and over no improvement and the SAME fundamental flaws.

Baker also needs to show me why he might be the QB to hand the franchise on. He did - year 1. Accuracy, moxy, ability to place the ball where WR's could snag it but CB's couldn't. . . . This year it's a different story - but Baker has shown me the ability to make me think he can be that guy. He just needs to get back to last year's guy.

I think you are in a tiny tiny minority with that thought.

I think you're confusing the difference between being able to read a D pre snap and reading a D post snap. Defensive coaches often show one defense, such as man or zone pre snap then fall into the opposite D post snap.

Reading that post snap D is a special quality some QB's are never able to grasp. It takes processing things so very quickly. You see one thing before the ball is snapped and then something totally different happens. You have to recognize it, go through your progressions and find your target.

When a defense shows you man, you can see your best match ups before the ball is snapped. When all of that changes in an instant, that takes a great deal of mental process to digest and adjust to in a very short amount of time.

The speed with which a QB goes through his progressions also comes into play.

Those changes post snap also require the WRs to make the necessary adjustments in routes as well. You see, THEY need to read the D changes as well.

Perhaps, Baker is making the right read and his receivers are not.