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Well, right now - we are the third best team in the division, and frankly if you ask me, we are farther behind Pittsburgh than people may think. They are going to be 8-8 without Ben and playing a 3rd and 4th string QB for most of the year, without their starting RB, or #1 WR for most a good chunk as well.

I think we should worry about Pittsburgh THEN Baltimore.

I saw that a little bit ago. Agree that it is a mess.

https://brownswire.usatoday.com/2019/12/...eddie-kitchens/

Great, now the backups of backups have clout when it comes to trashing the team.

Hubbard hurt his ankle early in the season. He wasn't good before he got hurt. Our other options are apparently worse. When your OL is a mess, a lot of playcalls won't work. That's definitely Freddie's fault

People point at Freddie's playcalling. If he ran every time, and we got stuffed every time, people would complain about that, too. While Chubb does lead the league in broken tackles, you can't expect him to break them every play.

The plays didn't work. Sometimes you just get beat. When your OL is awful at the most important positions, you'll get beat a lot.

If a ball doesn't get tipped at the line, we have a first down. Clearly it's Freddie's fault that Baker's pass got batted.

Without Myles and Vernon we've been getting owned in both trenches. That's not something you can scheme/play call away.

Not addressing the OL is on Dorsey. Robinson regressed with a new OL coach. (His good season was a statistical aberration to begin with.) The old OL coach badmouthed the new HC, so he clearly couldn't stay.

Dorsey is above average at picking individual talents. Actual team building seems a bit more problematic.

Let's see if Dorsey can fix the OL. I imagine Kitchens would "magically" look a lot better afterwards. Baker, too.

I don't get the McCarthy/Rivera love. They couldn't keep good teams going. They're magically going to navigate the minefield that is the Browns? Rivera rode Cam Newton until he broke. McCarthy had Aaron Rodgers. Did the teams win because of the coaching or despite the coaching?

I don't think its just about the HC's either. The entire staff matters. Who could they pull together?

Put most coaches in Freddie's shoes with this OL and they probably wouldn't look very good.

It's hard to name a worse pair of starting tackles.

j/c,

What is taking them so long?

I mean we should have heard that the Browns where firing Freddie Kitchens by now.

Is there a pulse of life in Berea?

How much of that has to do simply with time of the year? It's hard to prep for opponents when you don't actually have opponents. Then there is the practice squad vs. starting QB angle. It's customary for gameplanning to be much more in depth during the regular season.

Could we use more structure? Probably. Do we have to blow things up to get it? I don't think so.

Give Freddie at least one offseason to adjust. Blough is seeing Patricia in his 2nd season as HC, and he'd been groomed for a HC job longer (vs not really at all.)

As much as I would be OK with the Browns canning Kitchens, I would understand why they may keep him.

If the plan is to keep Dorsey, then you probably keep Kitchens too. If Dorsey feels the Browns just need to fix their lines in the offseason, you probably just stay put.

If the Browns can revamp their OL, and add two more decent bodies on the DL, and add 2 more LB(Mack Wilson sucks, he def needs replaced) then we won't be far off from competing.

This of course becomes easier if we keep Schobert, then we only need one LB, renegotiate Kirksey, and were good to go.

I still think they need to take play calling duties away from Kitchens if he stays. Its impeding his ability to make good Head Coaching decisions during games, he is not ready to be a HC and calling plays. He needs to learn to delegate to a coordinator.

We need to actually hire an OC not named Todd Monken, let that person call the plays and install his system, and let Kitchens have input and put some of his plays into it. This is a workable system.

I guess we will just have to wait and see what happens, but the Air Raid is def not an NFL offense long term.

ot.








I agree. While I think Freddie goes, and lean that way myself, I am not going to go crazy if we retain him. I like the guy and do believe people can mature in to a position, though he has been slow to change from previous mistakes.

If we keep him, he needs to be removed from play calling duties. If I was Dorsey I would direct him to allow Monken to call this last game. I'd tell Freddie that he has no chance of staying if that didn't happen. I would want to see if this current O can be a fit headed in to next year. The marriage of Monken and Kitchens seems to have been rocky at best.

If we do make a change, a guy I'd like to see interviewed is Gus Malzahn, head coach Auburn. The guy is 54-55 and is a run game genius. I think he would make a great NFL head coach. The guy always has good teams and he is stuck right in the middle of Alabama and Georgia recruit grounds. It isn't like Ohio State where if you are a kid with ability, Ohio State is the Ohio school 95% want to attend. That isn't a jab at the Bucs, it is props to Gus. He has to fight a little harder to bring in the talent. He is a very good coach. He also has the age that he isn't going to take much guff.




[/quote]

The HC is supposed to have the players ready to execute the plays.

The OLINE didn't give up a single sack yesterday. But FK made horrific game decisions and time management.

Its FREAKING 15 games into the season and our guys still don't know where to line up. That's on Freddie.

Its FREAKING 15 games into the season and the guy is calling Timouts to punt the ball. SMH.

Freds a joke.

I'm not sure what that really has to do with it. He saw how both teams operate and he thinks the Lions have more structure and discipline in their approach than the Browns do. He's pretty much saying what many of us have been saying, minus the bit about the Lions.

Bull also made a good point about the timing, and how Blough was comparing offseason Browns work to inseason Lions work. I agree that is not a direct comparison.

Flip it around though. Has a player ever left the Browns, or came to the Browns, and marveled at how well things are run here compared to another team? I have never heard of that happening.

JC...Let's just say we never hired Freddie as our coach...

Lets say he went to the Patriots under BB....what position do you think he could honestly succeed in? I'm still thinking a mere RB or TE coach...he's just in way too deep imo

Many said the same about Hue and look where that led us. Hell, you can make a pretty good argument that even with inferior talent and going 1-15 and looking down the barrel at 0-16 Hue's teams played harder, with more commitment and focus and much more discipline than this team with significantly more talent has for Freddie. SAD.

Why is Kitchens still with the team, at this very minute, second? Every moment he continues to spend with the team is hurting them. We need to get rid of him today, not next week, NOW.

I think that HAD to be the straw that broke the camels back...unbelievable how unprepared he was for that.

Then he doubled down a couple times in case the camel had a semblance of a hump left.

I mean we have seen it though, over and over. Took a penalty on 4th down cause he wanted to save a timeout - but waste one for a punt? It just doesn't make sense, and he really really shows why he is not smart. He has 0 game management skills.

Pretty damning quote by Blough, someone who has little-to-no importance of opinion. FK just needs to be thanked for his efforts, and we need to move on

I am making no comment on any part of your post other than ^ this one.

I get it. FK is the head coach. But if people don't know where to line up (receivers), is that not on them, first and foremost, then on the rec. coach/s, then the O coordinator?

I would give you this argument back in week 3. Buts Its absolutely on the HC this late in the season. The coordinators are under Freddies direction. So are the position coaches. If they are not coaching and preparing this team to a suitable manner, its FK job to assess that during that week and make adjustments so the team is prepared and knows what they are doing.

The fact we have gone 15 weeks, and this issue has not been rectified by Freddie, that's on him. He has had plenty of time to make corrections and step in. He either hasn't stepped in - or has and has not corrected the problem. Either way, its a black mark on him.

I don't think Freddie likes guys being mad at him. Cant please all these guys Fred.

This coaching staff is going to either tie or have a worse record than Pettine had with Johnny and Hoyer throwing the ball to Miles Austin and Andrew Hawkins and Crow.

If he didn't he would coach better then lol.

For me grading a coach has to do with the level of talent they have to work with.

If a coach has a 2-14 team and wins 5 games i think he did a great job.

Conversely I believe that if you have a coach that has a 10+ win team and wins 7-8 games he stinks.

In the case of Freddie this team has underachieved by a lot.

As good as you all THINK the Ravens are overall we have better talent, not at every position but overall better talent.

Look at Buffalo a great example of a team that has over achieved and that is coaching.

Will Fred be better next year I do NOT know, but he sure sucked this year.

J/C

What Brian Florres did in MIAMI this year, I would sign up for that type of coach any day of the week. They overachieved. We have underachieved, greatly.

Mike Tomlin in Pittsburgh and Buff as well. All teams with little talent, overachieving.

Honestly, I don't even care about the record.

1. is the team prepared, week in week out? If they are, they will have a chance in any game, talent or little talent.

2. are players progressing under the coach? Do they show development and look like they are getting better

3. Are the same mistakes being cleaned up? Are we improving at pre-snap penalties, or def penalty calls? Are we seeing less and less missed assignments, or less bad routes?

4. And Finally, does the team play hard - week in and week out.

Frankly, record aside, the ONLY one you can see is a MAYBE - is 4, and even then it looked like they quit against ARIZONA to me. We will see next week when we play cincy.

But going on those BIG 4 components, I think this will be the last week we see this staff wearing Brown and Orange, and then they wont matter.

Good point about Flores. They improved, they played hard, they maximized the roster, individual players got better, etc

j/c...

Just putting this here since our HC hasn't been fired.....yet.

2020 Coach tracker...

I agree that the record is not the primary concern here, but the fact that the team has not matured through out the season.

Add to that a play caller who doesn't know the pulse of his own team ... I don't see where continuity is at all a part of any discussion on the direction of the team. In order to have continuity you must first have an identy to start with imo.

1. I'd fire Kitchens ASAP. Since its not likely to happen today I guess that means after the game this Sunday or Monday. Don't wait any time after that.

2. Its never too early to start talking to potential coaching candidates though. There isn't really a reason to keep Kitchens so you can start the search now. Make it confidential though. Panthers have already interviewed McCarthy. We need to get the ball rolling.

3. If any of the below coaches or another one has a strong personality and Dorsey objects to it for some reason or is unwilling to hire him, fire Dorsey immediately.

4. If I were the GM the coaching candidates on my list in no particular order would be the following. Gauging interest from them and possible interviews: If I were the Browns DECISION would be:

-Ron Rivera, He is a professional HC in the NFL. Something we haven't had in Cleveland for a long time. I haven't seen a large number of Panthers games in the past. I do know that they recognized they needed to tailor the offense around Cam Newton and they did it. He also strikes me as disciplined.
DECISION = YES

-Mike McCarthy, This one is very interesting as he was a proven coach in Green Bay and did win the super bowl before. That is a lot of experience. It does scare me though about what Aaron Rogers said while working with McCarthy towards the end, that the NFL was passing him by. What exactly does that mean? Personally I like a simple playbook, you don't need fancy plays to succeed in the NFL if your team executes well and knows what their strengths are (running in our case). I would want to know what he learned from his time in GB and if he'd do anything different if at all. What happened with Aaron Rogers?
DECISION = MAYBE

-Lincoln Riley, I've never seen Riley when things aren't going well. How does he respond? How disciplined is he? Just because he and Baker get along doesn't mean anything. I'm not gonna fall for that relationship thing again the way it happened with him and Kitchens.
DECISION = PROBABLY NOT.

-Urban Meyer, He has head coaching experience of a major college football program. Won multiple national championships in a demanding environment. He has HIS system by design and brings it wherever he goes. Think OSU pre-Urban than after. He installed his system and frankly it didn't take that long. I guess its the spread, which would be in line with where some people believe the NFL is going. Bottom line, I don't know how he feels and his health could be an issue. It depends on Urban....
DECISION = YES

-Greg Roman, Helped tailor the offense around Lamar Jackson and knows how to call plays very well. He's never been a head coach, don't know his personality, don't know if he's tough enough to handle things.
DECISION = PROBABLY NOT

-Gregg Williams, Realistically this probably won't happen because Gregg would laugh in our face. Also Dorsey or whoever doesn't have the type of ego to call him up and say they made a mistake last year, I'd love to see it though. He has proven NFL experience and is a disciplinarian. Not afraid to get in players faces which I like. You think the WR would come to the sidelines and jaw at Williams? I don't think so. Personally I'd love to have him back.
DECISION = YES

-Jim Tressel, Conservative offense, basic, run approach, basically the opposite of what we have now. I actually think that would work wonderfully. This would be too good and that's why it won't happen. I think his style would fit the NFL well, as he waits for his opponent to mess up first, his teams are usually disciplined.
DECISION = YES

-Pete Carmicheal, current offensive coordinator of Saints. He's been with them for a long time but realistically I'd be VERY leery about him. I'm just confused of how much he does versus how much of the offense is Brees\Payton and that's it.
DECISION = NO UNLESS HE'S PACKAGED WITH WILLIAMS

I will pass this on to Jimmah.

Tasty....don't forget Josh McDaniels as he is an Ohioan and is often linked with the Browns whenever we discuss a coaching change. Whether one likes him or not...somebody will eventually give him another shot and he has been tutored by the best.

And don't forget Bill Cower too ......

No thanks.

Have you looked at the miserable head coaching record McDaniels has?

All Belichick assistants are just low hanging fruit.

Print it out and laminate for him.

Bill Cowher - A long standing proven coach in the NFL, great tradition and success with the Steelers. Now in his cupcake broadcast position and likely isn't going anywhere. Great disciplinarian though.
DECISION = YES PRESUMING HE'S INTERESTED WHICH MOST LIKELY HE'S PROBABLY NOT

Josh McDaniels - An arrogant punk, know it all OC who thinks he's better than he actually is. Former HC who was run out of town in Denver. Unless he has fast results and is an absolute genius his attitude wouldn't fly. Something interesting to note, now that he has to deal with Brady as he's gotten older the offense is much different now. To me it looks very average and pedestrian. He's also part of the Belichik tree which is a falsehood. There is no such tree.
DECISION = AVOID AT ALL COSTS

BONUS:
Jim Harbaugh - HC with previous NFL experience with the 49er's of last. His teams were disciplined, well designed, always tough to beat. I have a feeling he'd also want to beat his brother in Baltimore. If he was interested at all it would be stupid to overlook just cause he coaches at the school up North. If interested:
DECISION = YES

https://www.nj.com/giants/2019/10/nfl-ru...some-juice.html

NFL rumors: Michigan’s Jim Harbaugh to Cleveland Browns gets some ... juice
Updated Oct 29, 2019;Posted Oct 29, 2019

AP

Will Michigan head coach Jim Harbaugh return to the NFL?

By Todderick Hunt | NJ Advance Media for NJ.com
Could the Harbaugh Bowl return to a flat-screen near you featuring the rival Cleveland Browns and Baltimore Ravens, flanked by Jim and John Harbaugh?

Some coaches continue to get opportunities despite mediocre results.

Jim Harbaugh is one such coach.

He’s experienced success, highlighted by a trip to Super Bowl XLVII with the San Francisco 49ers (and an offense led by Colin Kaepernick) in 2013, where he coached against older brother John who still coaches the Ravens.

Despite losing the game to his big brother, 34-31, Jim could do no wrong at the time and was the hottest coach in the country.

Fast forward six years and that’s no longer true.

Yet, he still has a strong football lineage which continues to earn him the benefit of the doubt.

Could Harbaugh bail on the Michigan Wolverines before ever beating Ohio State or Michigan State?

Whether it’ll happen or not is unclear.

But people are starting to get behind the idea, including former NFL running back O.J. Simpson, who revealed his feelings via a Twitter video post, Monday.

“A lot of great college coaches don’t do well in the pros, Jimmy Johnson and Pete Carroll exception,” Simpson said. "But there’s a guy that was a good college coach that I think was better as a pro coach, and he’s right next door to you, Cleveland.

"His name is Jim Harbaugh, and I think he's the elixir to all of your problems.

“I’m just saying,” Simpson said to conclude the video.

Others are also breathing life into the idea.

It would be an interesting move for Harbaugh who is loathed in Ohio due to the Michigan-Ohio State rivalry.

Harbaugh also would be the second Michigan coach to leave the school for the city of Cleveland in less than a year. John Beilein left the basketball program to coach the Cavaliers in May.

Todderick Hunt may be reached at thunt@njadvancemedia.com. Follow him on Twitter @TodderickHunt. Find NJ.com Rutgers Football on Facebook.

I'd take john in a minute
Jim however, is a braying jackass.

And...advice from OJ Simpson?! Yeah, great decision after great decision by that idiot! Too bad Manson ain't around to run it by...

Just as long as it’s not Orange juice.

Frank Reich in Indianapolis is another guy who has overachieved. Remember when he took the job last year, Josh McDaniels had previously agreed to take the Colts job and then backed out. Frank Reich kept the coaching staff that McDaniels had put together, in lieu of putting together his own staff. The Colts have shed a lot of money and now lead the league in cap space. Irsay is always a wild card at owner. They had to deal with Andrew Luck's surprise retirement.

Granted, they have regressed some here at the end of the year, but they're still 7-8 and are 17-14 going back to last season. That's really good, all things considered.

Also, Frank Reich (along with John Harbaugh) have led the way on going for it more on 4th downs. They have a systematic, analytic approach that actually makes sense, not the "oh what if we fail, field position blah blah let's punt" that has dominated the league for so long. Go figure, it took a hundred years for NFL coaches to figure out it's better to go for it on 4th and short than to punt it away, something that was always obvious for some of us (though not enough of us, apparently.)

Very good point. The entire idea of continuity is to CONTINUE your identity, continue what your doing.

Honestly, what is our identify on offense? We seem to be a run first team that loves to pass the majority of the time. We have 0 identity, and go against every fiber of how we are built. Square peg, round hole.

Why continue something that is obviously not working?

Getting Harbaugh would be nice, and there was a possibility of this happening some years back. As I recall, his wife didn't want to come to Cleveland and Jim didn't want to coach in the same division as his brother.

If we could overcome these, hire him before Michigan realizes that things can, in fact, get worse.

J/C

Jesus, Tony.

Cowher is not coming, JUST STAHHHPPPPPPP. Dude is making like 6 million a year to work 3 days a week. Not gonna happen. Im sure some have heard from his cousins best friend realtor he bought a house in Lakewood or something, but get over it.

Tressel? Are we still throwing out this crazy idea?


Harbaugh, John??? Yeah, because not being able to beat Ohio State is the biggest rivalry in football is just want I want in division full of....wait for it....Rivals.

Urban aint coming anywhere here either.

You guys really have some pipe dreams, do some of you honestly believe these "possibilities"? Talk about Xmas miracles.