DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Why should the fans support or believe in Haslam?

From what MR. Haslam was intimating JD was good in some areas but not as good in others. Well, at least we got in partially right with JD. Let's see if we can get it completely right with this next hire. We are due.

Agree. I liked John, don't get me wrong. He was GREAT at finding talent, but as a GM you need to be able to do more. ESPECIALLY if you don't hire a leader as a HC, you need to be that LEADER. He wasn't.

If the picture that's being painted is true (Dorsey, being on the hook for the Freddie hire, wouldn't take accountibility nor take a reduced role because of his massive ego, was vulnerable because of his coach's epic failure and then fired because it became clear his ego was getting in the way), then I reluctantly support the decision to fire him (as little as that may mean to anyone other than me). If his ego was so big that he didn't want to fire Freddie... that's fireable all by itself.

But then people turning around saying he wasn't that good of a talent evaluator are just nuts. Dude redid our roster in record time. Yes, he had a ton of draft picks, but he also swung deals the likes of Randall for Kizer, drafted a guy that could potentially be a FQB (regardless how you feel about Baker, he's better than the likes of Kizer, Hue's "Trust me" guy who I can't remember, and so on through the last several years, brought in Hunt for peanuts, brought in a top5 WR that's just hitting his prime. Drafted arguably the best RB in the league (who began staking that claim straight out of the gate).
Dude has his misses, and some of them are bad, but he's the best talent evaluator we've had since maybe Heckert, but probably back further than that. I highly doubt we will find someone that could do a better job in this department than him.

It sucks that his weaknesses were apparently so great that not even him strengths could keep him in his role.

There were pros and cons with Dorsey, no doubt. oobernoober did a nice job laying out the pros.

I don't believe hiring Freddie Kitchens alone was worth a firing. He got it wrong but GMs in his position often get a second chance at a head coach.

Wanting to keep Freddie may have been worth a firing, but there's really nothing other than unsubstantiated media reports that suggest that.

Long story short, I'm not in that building, I don't know what happened. I would like to think that the people in the building know what happened and know what they are doing, but past history makes me very uneasy about that.

I don't recall anyone saying he couldn't spot talent.

he go talent here, but lets be honest, with the amount of cap he had and the amount of draft picks at his disposal - I think he could have done better.

1. When building a team, the most important part is TEAM. You have to have guys willing to play as a team first. Dorsey put talent over team, and that was a big reason we had the issues we did.

2. He drafted Corbett before he drafted Chubb. Lets not forget that. If it wasn't for the Osweiler trade, which was orchestrated by Depo.

3. Randall for Kizer was a steal

4. He cut Nassib and C. Smith, and traded Ogbah and Avery for whoever that white guy was we had playing at the end of the year that couldn't beat a block to save his life. These were terrible moves.

5. Forced Ratley and Hodges on us, when Higgins is clearly the better the player. If he was so great at talent eval, why?

Our two best players on this team are Myles and Chubb. He didn't draft Myles, and he wouldn't have been able to draft Chubb if not for someone else. . . .

Im not sure anyone is saying Dorsey is a bad talent evaluator. He was a horrible GM.

The talent evaluator we had prior to Dorsey was better. I actually liked Heckert and I thought Farmer was good as well, but he was not a good GM, either.

Dorsey created more holes than he filled. A lot of his roster turnover was unnecessary. We were on the verge of turning the corner by adding a few key pieces. It's a shame Dorsey was unable to recognize this and felt he had to overturn the entire roster. Our roster isn't much better if at all notree than he was when he arrived.

There is a lot of past history on John that suggest what got him fired in KC is what lead to them parting ways here.

I just don't think he was the savior that some think he was.

There are better GMs in football to be had. I want the best. He maybe great at talent eval, but he was not great as a GM.

"1. When building a team, the most important part is TEAM. You have to have guys willing to play as a team first. Dorsey put talent over team, and that was a big reason we had the issues we did. "

This is a good point and I agree. If there's a major knock I have about Dorsey's talent he brought in, it's this (even moreso than some of the obvious misses, ala Corbett.)

Sometimes it's hard to tease out what's going on when players are distractions or don't know where to line up, or what have you. Is it because the coach doesn't know what he's doing/lacks discipline, or did the GM bring in players who were unprepared/unprofessional, or not smart enough to learn the scheme?

I think there are often elements of both and you can see it in other teams as well. For example, one refrain you sometimes hear regarding New England is that, Belichick the coach covers up for Belichick the GM. There may be some truth to that, but I also think that Belichick the coach benefits greatly from having players who are football smart and coachable.

Quoted for truth. We have talent that think they can just show up and win. They were coached like that from the HC, and brought in like that from the GM.

I would take 5 Edelmans over 5 OBJ's any day in a WR room.

J/C

I said it before

NAMES don't win GAMES

But the more disciplined and dedicated team wins every sunday.

When it became obvious that Kitchens needed help with play calling, Dorsey did not step in and say, "Freddie, let's give Monken a chance to see what he can do. After all, he had the # 1 passing offense in the league last year..."

The point about drafting Chubb behind Corbett is a great point, and one that I forgot. That's going a little further down the 'what if' rabbit hole than I'd like to go, but it's very fair to point out. I don't discount the bounty of resources left to Dorsey from Sashi and co.

IMO, the theory that Dorsey was exerting so much influence over Freddie that he dictated who would and wouldn't play is a little too tinfoil-hat for me. I put the non-play of Higgins and Njoku on Freddie. I'm open to hearing concrete proof otherwise (and then I'll admit wrong), but until then that's on Freddie and not Dorsey. I also don't think the losses of Nassib or Smith hurt our overall talent. Nassib was a bubble guy when he was here. He had no moves and no power, sounds like he turned that around somehow, but that happened after he left. We did not cut a premier player when we cut him. The Smith cut was the same, if sad. Perhaps that could've been handled better, but it was pretty much agreed upon that the guy just wasn't getting it done. Churning the bottom of the roster, we call it.

device,
If you think Farmer and SashiCo. were better talent evaluators than Dorsey.... that's crazy.
But yes... Dorsey appears to be a terrible GM. I do want to be clear that based on what we've been hearing, it sounds like Dorsey wasn't doing a good enough job as a GM, and Haslam (to his credit) tried to puhs him back to a role that highlighted his strengths, and Dorsey's ego wouldn't have it. Good on Haslam, actually.
I may be getting defensive about Dorsey, so I want to clarify that think I understand what went down. Just sucks that, once again, the org running the team pulled itself apart.

Outside of being a HC again and the chance to come back to NE Ohio, I agree.

Its been reported that Freddie was hired because John would have his thumb on the HC and control him. We saw John trade Hyde to force a coaches hand to play his guy (that worked out and was a smart), but do you really think he wouldn't force Freddie to sit Higgins to play his guy?

He told Haley/Hue to play chubb, and they played Hyde. He traded hyde to "flex his muscles". He was told not to hire Freddie - that he was ready. He hired Freddie to "flex his muscles"

Theres too much smoke behind it if you ask me.

Nassib had more sacks than anyone on our team not named Myles. Nassib was a solid player here and was making strides. It was a terribe move to trade him, especially when we have little depth. Nassib BY FAR out performed Vernon.

I am ok with cutting Smith, ONLY if we got someone better to replace him. That's the issue, we didn't get anyone better. Why cut a guy if your not going to replace him with someone better? That's the point of cutting them, right?

Smith had done nothing this season. In 9 games he had 1 assist, 1 QB hit, and 1 pass defensed. He went through a tragedy with his girlfriend, and that was horrible ..... but he wasn't an asset on the field.

Cox looked like he could be a future rotational piece, and he was more productive than Smith.

Teams move out non-productive veterans all the time. Smith's limited production wasn't all his fault, obviously, but they brought up a young player, and allowed Smith to deal with his situation. By the way, as a vested veteran, he received his entire salary for this season.

Nassib had plateau'd by the time we cut him. We was neck-and-neck with the LB with the wife that baked the cookies (Hard Knocks) that we overdrafted. The guy had hype going into each season and fizzled every time. He was not making strides, he had stagnated. Sorry, but most folks around here were tired of the yearly "Nassib is finally going to click this season".

C. Smith was churning the bottom of the roster. You don't know who/what is going to bubble up in his place. Might be better, might be worse, probably will be more of the same. That's how it goes.

That's why he had more sacks than anyone else this year on our team not named myles, you cant just make stuff up. If he "plateau'd" why did he produce this year in Tampa? lol

He is a good player, and better than ANYONE we replaced with him. That's is a FACT.

Right, but we got Vernon who was injury riddled the last three seasons for $15.5 million in 2019.....for Zeitler no less!

He had 2.5 sacks his first year, and 2 his second year. IIRC, both years, most if not all of those sacks occurred in bunches and in the early parts of both seasons. I believe many attributed this to his very fast first step, but not having a whole lot behind that (in terms of moves). In other words, he came out the gate on fire and then fizzled. Both years.

In his two years at TB, he's had 6.5 and 6 sacks, respectively, in his 2 years there. His tackles have gone up slightly each year. Interestingly, his assisted tackles seem to bounce around a bit.

Yes, he's done well since he left. No, he was not this solid/special player you're making him out to be when he was here. He was very very ordinary.

I never said he was special. He is absolutely solid, if you don't think he is, you don't know what your watching - actually, I don't think your watching, I think you are just stat pulling to try to make a case.

Which you did, you made MY case.

The dude is consistent, and has gotten better from his first two years in the league. he has outperformed EVERYONE on our roster at his position not named Myles Garrett. Do you know how to build a team? You draft guys in later rounds and develop them into good solid players. You cant have a team full of Myles Garretts. You need Nassibs, Bud Duprees, and guys that get hard work in and provide good football at a decent price that you can keep on your roster for a good amount of years. This isnt madden with the salary cap turned off.

NO ONE is saying Nassib is a pro bowler, but to release a guy that is BETTER than any option you have on your roster (especially one that has shown is a developing young player) its idiotic.

Your wrong here.

The ONLY thing the Haslam's have proven to any of us is their inability to hire a competent staff and their inability to show any patience. I have zero faith in the the Haslam's. After all, why should I, or we? They have given us nothing but instability and a very poor product.

We may have an extremely talented locker room compared to past years, but we are still mired in a cloud of dysfunction and turmoil.

I will repeat once again that the Haslam's had their coach years ago and they let him walk away. Kyle Shanahan should have been promoted to HC after the 2014 season, but our stupid, egotistical owners couldn't see brilliance if it stared right at them. Actually, brilliance did stare at them, but before Jimmy & Dee could blink he grabbed his stuff and rightfully headed south to Atlanta and then on to bigger and better things in San Francisco.

If they hire Daboll we are doomed. And, I wouldn't be surprised if he becomes their choice.

I don't believe anyone was doing the thing you're saying about Nassib. No one ever expected Nassib to be a super star. And I don't recall anyone saying this is the year Nassib breaks out. To say you were tired of that happening every year seems crazy because he was only here two.

Nassib would be a fantastic role player and would have come in handy with Vernon and Garrett out. He was a developmental player and with proper coaching could have a very good NFL career. I think he's been developed nicely by his coaches. He may never be hall of Famer, but he certainly would add value to the roster.

Dorsey doesn't draft well, and his idea of drafting is taking a chance on red flag players who should be drafted much earlier because of talent but aren't because of attitude, etc. Callaway didn't work out, Tyreek did, sorta. I believe Hill had off field issues this past season.

Without the extra picks the previous regime acquired, we'd have only Baker and Corbett from the 2018 draft. No Ward, no Chubb. That's crazy.

And I didn't say Dorsey was a bad talent evaluator, there are just obviously some better than he.

Bud Dupree was 1st round draft pick for the Steelers - just saying.

I do agree with you about Nassib.

J/C

I would take Genard Avery over Nassib any day of the week.

and he produced about the same as Nassib his first 4 years in the league. He has 2 more sacks that Nassib in that time frame which again just backs my point, that you don't trade a guy that was drafted where Nassib was and producing the same amount as a 1st pick has been. lol He is productive, cheap, and a solid player.

Especially when you don't have someone to replace him. Great GMs don't create holes on a roster just to create a hole.

And where did fearless leader John send him? Another great move.

Exactly. Avery is a developmental player as well, but his raw talent immediately stood out much brighter than Nassib's ever did.

I think the conversation has already run its course, but I'm aggravated because of what I'm seeing as some revisionist history.
Willit,
It's unfortunate you didn't read some/most of my post. You mentioned sacks before me, so I gave you the sack #s. I also noticed his total tackles.
I also went into what I believe was behind those #s (quick first step with not much else), but I'm working off memory... which is iffy at best. But yes... stat pulling...

I did do a quick search of the archives. Found one long thread of when those cuts came down. There were 5 posters saying Nassib was 'just a guy' (I'm paraphrasing) that wouldn't be a huge loss to 1 person that mentioned Nassib and that we would miss him. Not evidence... sure, just further explanation of what I'm saying (at the time, cutting Nassib wasn't seen as that big of a deal, because of his performance). There was FAR more consternation over cutting Meder. The guy that Nassib was supposedly battling for a roster spot was the illustrious Nate Orchard. They were both cut.

And yet neither on the roster, also, Avery was a LB, Nassib was an DE - so comparing the two really is apple and oranges.

We finished the year with less players at that position, for no reason.

Nassib ... ...

By far the most overrated player to ever leave here ....

STATS ARE FOR .... well u know ...

Obviously you did read anything that was posted. No one is overrating him, but stating a FACT that he is better than anyone we else we have is not overrating him. He is better than the guys we replaced him with. you cannot argue that.

You know my thoughts on the situation - I think Dorsey should have got another year, but to act like he didn't do anything wrong is short sighted.

When did i say he did nothing wrong ... He made plenty of mistakes, just like they all do ...

Getting rid of Nassib wasn’t one of them ... Kendricks was a much much bigger mistake ...

His biggest mistake got him fired ... i missed on that one too ... *L* ...

Dude did an OUTSTANDING JOB bringing in talent ... thank god for that cause the only shot we have to win til your kids old enough to drink is with the talent he left behind ...

you keep saying Outstanding, I don't think you know what this word means

Bake
Ward
Chubb
Greedy
Wilson
VG
Randall
OBJ
Richardson
Vernon
Mitchell

And sadly that's the vast majority of what we're seeing posted these days.

It's easier to look at who is left from before Dorsey:

QB: None
RB: None
TE: Njoku
OL: Tretter, Bitonio
WR: Higgins

DL: Garrett, Ogunjobi
LB: Schobert (Kirksey: IR)
DB: None
LS: Hughlett
K: None
P: None

Is that because the players were bad or because Dorsey was cleaning house for the sake of cleaning house?

(Probably a little of both.)

He may have been a LB, but we played him at both DE and LB, yet couldn't find a spot for him. However, in 2018 when he did see the field he showed much greater promise than Nassib ever did.

Well ... what worthwhile players did we have that he let go.

I can think of Seth Devalve, Jason McCourty, Jamie Meder, and maybe Nassib as possibilities ....... and Jamie Collins, though he never seemed interested in playing here.

I was not a big fan of Peppers ... so I didn't care that he was traded.

Who else?