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You can forget signing any big name FA's. The days of making big trades and FA splashes are over. They left town with Dorsey. Frivolous spending and bad contracts are now over! No more Chris Hubbard, TJ Carrie, Eric Murray, EJ Gaines, Tyrod Taylor, Carlos Hyde, Desmond Harrison, Chris Smith, Eric Kush, Adarius Taylor moves! Winning the offseason doesn't necessarily equate to winning on Sundays. Be like Peen and ignore the other side of that coin ... Instead of VG and OBJ we can look forward to more Kenny Britt’s & Corey Coleman’s .. Instead of Bake we can have Kizer ... No more Chubb or Hunt plenty of Isaiah Crowell ... No more Ward or Mitchells or Randall’s but plenty of Derrick Kindreds and trading of Joe Haden’s ... How do u like me now ... *L* ... I don't know what prompted that comment? I will say it again. John did a great job of bolstering the roster. Like anybody he had his share of misses, but we brought in some solid talent. When you average it out between the hits and misses, I'd say a solid B trending up. He had a lot of nice draft picks to work with, but that is another story that doesn't belong here. With the picks he had he did a nice job. He made some bold moves with FA and trades. He had one problem...actually two. The first was hiring Freddie Kitchens. That proved to be the start of his downfall. Then, when it was evident Kitchens was overwhelmed, he didn't step in and have Freddie hand over the play calling to Monken. After the script was over, which I am sure Monken was heavily involved, after a drive or two the guy was lost. But, John stuck with his guy...sometimes a fatal flaw in the business world...who was Petines lackey D coordinator? I can't blame Haslam for not just giving John carte blanche over the next head coaching hire. Had John been agreeable to that, I think he would still be here. So yes my friend, I do try to look at both sides of the coin. My last few comments on this thread are ironically about people unwilling to look at the other side of the coin.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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Please explain to us how you feel that the constant turnover in HC's and FO's do not have a big impact on attracting candidates to those positions?
Please explain how the losing culture this team has had since its return would make Cleveland an attractive destination to FA's?
I know you seem to claim none of these things make a difference, but smart people usually wish to go to an environment that breeds success. A place they feel has the right conditions to help bolster their resume.
I'm not predicting gloom and doom here. What I am doing is wondering how a smart guy like you seems to indicate that obvious factors are being ignored by people that have a vested interest in success.
We actually witnessed one of our good OL players leave here for less money. He'll be playing in the SB next week.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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Instead of VG and OBJ we can look forward to more Kenny Britt’s & Corey Coleman’s .. CoCo! The man that secured the 0-16 season with his drop. A true legend.
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Depodesta's comments after drafting Coleman.... So yes, the next Corey Coleman may be on the horizon.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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DePo is a glass half-full guy! Love his positivity.
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It positively got us Corey Coleman! 
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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JMHO, Coleman was rated best/among the best WRs BEFORE he proved otherwise in NFL. Sad thing is lots of these guys are basketheads....how's K Hunt looking now....another Josh G.....time will tell....Go Browns!!!
"You've never lived till you've almost died, life has a flavor the protected will never know" A vet or cop
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That's why anyone can have a draft site and there's only 32 GM jobs in the NFL.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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JC... Have we now reached a point where Corey Coleman is now all Paul DePodesta's fault? Wow. From Hue Jackson, who said he wanted to nail down a WR in the draft "as fast as I can get one". "We were able to add a very dynamic football player to our team,'' said Jackson, who's accustomed to the likes of A.J. Green and Marvin Jones. "What a tremendous athlete and the suddenness and quickness. We plan on being very dynamic on offense. This guy truly gives us an opportunity to do that."From PFF Corey Coleman isn't perfect, but he's 2016's top WR prospectI guess we can blame it all on DePo, since he's the only one left, but sometimes these dudes simply don't work out!
Last edited by FATE; 01/25/20 02:00 PM.
HERE WE GO BROWNIES! HERE WE GO!!
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No. The quote from Depodesta I posted above shows they were both in agreement. So it's a 5/50 thing. He was just as good as Hue was.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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Ahhh, so it's not exactly "mad dog in a meat market" material...
HERE WE GO BROWNIES! HERE WE GO!!
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I guess you missed the memo. People on here have claimed for years that Depo had no hand in the first draft after he was hired. That has proven to be false from his own statement.
They have also said he had nothing to do with the Coleman pick. That has also been proven to be false. According to his comment he was all in on the Coleman pick. So if you think that means nothing, have at it.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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Have we now reached a point where Corey Coleman is now all Paul DePodesta's fault? Wow.
It's a 50/50 thing b/t Hue and DePo! Which means, it wasn't Sashi's fault! A new revelation. 
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The only real difference is Depo is still here.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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J/C (sorry) - discussing Corey Coleman seems pointless. Was he highly regarded coming into that draft? Yes. Did he bust? Yes.
Lots of draft picks do. In fact the probability is higher than we (or maybe I ) think. I seem to recall a chart posting a historic evaluation of drafted players per round and by position on this site - probably at least a year or maybe more ago. It showed only 50% of WRs taken in the 1st round made it to become starting material.
The draft is a crapshoot. Plain and simple. Some players are can't miss (JT), whilst others seemed like it and really didnt pan out - Aaron Curry, anyone?
I also think hanging the blame on any one individual, in most cases, for a player not being what they should have, is the most flawed blame logic ever. Even Bill misses on picks. The draft appears to be a collation of info from so many sources (scouting during college season, pro days, interviews, shrine and senior bowl games, combine, analytics, owners who interfere, etc) and then trying to order over 300 college players in some sort of order. It's no wonder that the rate of failure can be high and it's also the reason good NFL players drop in the draft. That happens consistently so what does that tell you? It's an imperfect process.
Add that to changing regimes, schemes and automobiles - where we have suffered more than most but happens regularly elsewhere - you have a recipe for consistent failure.
Last edited by drobs; 01/25/20 02:28 PM.
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I guess you missed the memo. People on here have claimed for years that Depo had no hand in the first draft after he was hired. That has proven to be false from his own statement.
They have also said he had nothing to do with the Coleman pick. That has also been proven to be false. According to his comment he was all in on the Coleman pick. So if you think that means nothing, have at it. Isn't everyone in every organization always "all-in"? Not sure how you equate a simple quote about being pleased with the pick as being the ringmaster with a heavy hand in the draft. So yeah, I think the Coleman pick "means nothing" where DePo is concerned... Meanwhile, you can go on insisting that there will be more picks just like him. Time will tell.
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We got a player we really wanted who we think is a great fit for us now Okay.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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We got a player we really wanted who we think is a great fit for us now Okay. Said everyone in the building, all scouting reports, most in the NFL and nearly all Browns fans! Listen, I don't think DePo is the greatest thing since sliced bread, but some of the comments here lately (not all by you) are that he is some loser that just has a job because Jimmy likes him (some of them even alluding to Jimmy's sexual preference). It's a joke. Everybody in the league makes or recommends bad picks in every draft. The draft is, and will always be, in many respects - a crap-shoot. We'll make a couple more in this draft and the narrative will shift to DePo as the man making all the mistakes. Meanwhile, we can't seem to get it done on the field no matter how much talent we acquire. What gets lost on me is the presumption that Jimmy is some masochistic loser that enjoys the pain and just keeps DePo along for the ride. We're not privy to what goes on behind closed doors. Maybe the proof, and the pudding, has already been served numerous times in draft picks, free agents, schemes and tendencies of opponents that have been revealed or recommended by DePo. If they've been vetoed by previous coaches or GMs we (the fans) would never know he made them in the first place. There's a very solid chance his resume is much better than what we judge it... And has been proven by what has not happened rather than what has. We won't know until a "tell-all" book by Mary Kay. Maybe, after a season or two, we can judge DePo on his own merits and not just Corey Coleman. Hopefully, we won't need to, because we'll finally have an organization that works to a consensus and keeps everyone on the same page.
HERE WE GO BROWNIES! HERE WE GO!!
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Actually you made my point probably better than I could.
You have given an honest evaluation of what some indicate on this board. Now let me give you an honest evaluation of what others are saying on this board.
They seem to claim that analytics is some sort of magic bullet. How now that analytics is the driving force, everything will be peaches and cream. That's simply not true.
As you have pointed out, in every system used you're going to have hits and misses. The law of averages makes this so. If there were actually some magic bullet to drafting and signing players, hiring HC's and GM's, it would have already been figured out by now.
This will be an attempt at yet another go Haslam trying to get it right. It may go better than in the past or we may go yet another step back. Nobody really has any way of knowing that. I certainly don't. However, I find it very disingenuous for people to try and claim that Depo has been being paid lots of money to sit on the sidelines and not be an ingredient of arriving where we are now.
In regards to Halslam, there are outliers who try to portray him as you describe but they are few and far between. But for the most part I feel a lot of people simply see him as someone who is in over his head. I'm not one to come up with an opinion without looking at the evidence. The evidence to this point appears to strongly indicate that has been the case to this point.
For people to say or believe that Haslam enjoys losing or isn't trying to win I find silly at best and to put it mildly. There is nobody in the business world who doesn't want their investment to gain value in the most efficient manner possible. Winning would help accomplish that more than anything.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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Good post. I'm not one of the "peaches and cream" guys. I think social media and the internet age lures us into taking special note of the extremes, and ignoring the simple fact that most opinions are far and away much closer to the middle. Then "mob mentality" and confirmation bias seems to turn anecdote into "proof". Just look at society's political rhetoric for the hour-by-hour examples. Alas, that's talk for another thread.
It's been a huge learning curve for JH, that we can agree on, hopefully his (our) worst days are behind him.
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As Browns fans we all must hope for the best.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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I suppose if we had gone with Paton, we'd be getting guys like Shariff Floyd and Laquon Treadwell...?
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Maybe we should bring back Phil Savage.
I just want to know how they (GM candidates) did evaluating offensive linemen. While definitely important, the rest is of secondary importance this draft cycle.
The fact that he used an almost 1st rounder on Corbett (amongst other things) makes me less upset with Dorsey not being here.
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What Haslam just created by rewarding Depo with more power and control within the organization is a management disaster waiting to explode.
I'm sure the GM candidates see it...
Haslam wants to run as much of the organization as he can and everyone reports to him.
Depo is going try the Moneyball experiment again, but now with more authority over player personnel than he had 4 years ago.
Now, Haslam wants a GM even though Depod was already handed some control over player personnel and the draft. Also, we have Elliot Wolf, who is already the Browns assistant GM.
Last, Haslam hired a headcoach who should have a degree of control over his roster. If there is going to be any chance of this analytics scheme working, Stefanski must control of something!
If analytics is just a tool to be used to help our HC and GM identify talent, why does Depo have any control over "who" the HC and GM want on their roster?
Now add Haslam's enormous ego to the mix, knowing he has a history of pulling rank and drafting players he likes...that just adds another layer of dysfunction within the Browns management.
I would use Depodesta's analytic information "as another tool" to help our GM and HC select players...and that would be it. Depodesta has nothing in his football resume that would earn him any control over who the HC and GM want on the roster.
That is what should happen, but we all know Haslam is determined to drive a square peg in a round hole
Last edited by mac; 01/25/20 08:57 PM.
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This search does give me the feeling of the year we fired Chud after one season, then desperately searched out a replacement and ended up with Pettine. This time around, it's to fill the G.M. job.
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Except this year .. we have two good assistants who can carry on if need be, which is why I think there is no real hurry atm.
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I remember when Haslam and Banner tried to sign Chip Kelly...Kelly to the Eagles job after Haslam and Banner interviewed Kelly for 7 or 8 hours.
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Except this year .. we have two good assistants who can carry on if need be, which is why I think there is no real hurry atm.
Unless the new GM doesn't want them around nor trust them. Their "buddy (boy)" did run Berry off. This might not be the case, but it could explain his hesitancy to take the job. Could be that Jimmy wants to keep Highsmith and Wolf, but Berry doesn't. Maybe Berry is okay with Wolf but not Highsmith. Speculation on my part, but some pieces seem to fit. I wonder if not being able to bring in his own guys is ultimately what pushed Paton away. Edit- A shotgun wedding between a GM and his lieutenants rather than GM and HC wouldn't be entirely out of character for Haslam. *sigh* Hopefully we'll have a case of two steps forward, one step back and not one forward, two back. Expecting no steps back feels too optimistic.
Last edited by Bull_Dawg; 01/26/20 12:18 PM.
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Simply put, in 2016 and 2017, under a
analytics regime the Browns managed 1 win and 31 losses.
Wrong, just cause you say so does not make it so.
Analytics...the greatest Analytic guy is DePodesta. Actually this is the first season where he is taking Control of this team...so the Analytic Regime is actually commencing NOW.
The first two season DePodesta took a back seat and yes did some analytics and provided it as a tool for those involved to use. But it was not HIS REGIME as you state. I think DePodesta feels comfortable now to actually take control and make no mistake about it - this is HIS TEAM NOW and the First year of his Regime.
jmho
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EO..spin it any way that makes you feel better about the Browns success under Depodesta's Moneyball scheme.
The 1-31 belongs to Haslam and Depodesta with a bit of Sashi thrown in.
Wasn't it Depodesta who ran the analytics on Carson Wentz and openly opined that Wentz wasn't a franchise caliber QB?
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Hubris did not want Wentz. It was Goff or bust.
The plan, analytically, or otherwise, was to tear the team down and rebuild through the draft. Acquire as many draft picks as possible. Utilize those draft picks in year 1 and 2 along with FA to build the lines (OL and DL). Why draft a QB if your OL sucks (see T. Couch and D. Carr for examples)? They were accomplishing this - Tretter, Bitonio, Zeitler, Garrett, Ogunjobi, etc. Year 3 was QB year, but they never got to year 3.
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Are you sure Wentz is a franchise quality QB ? I'm not so sure everyone else is .. Wentz is good, yes, but please define franchise quality ? Is Baker a "Franchise Quality QB", is Stafford.. How about Winston .. Tanneyhill ? Mariota ? Wentz pulled himself out of the playoff game this year, forcing McCown to play 3 quarter with a hamstring pulled away from the bone ? Wentz may have been right to pull himself, but he pulled himself, the doctors didn't. Looking back, does it seem like a move Cutler might have made ? So please .. come up with a definition of franchise QB everyone can believe in. Brady was a "Franchise QB", is he still ? Was Eli ever a franchise QB, or just a good one ? Rogers probably is one, still, and Mahomes most likely is as well, but who else ?
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The Eagles were rebuilding too..they started by taking the QB that Depodesta determined was not a franchise caliber QB.
But the Eagles then built their team around Wentz they have been in the playoffs in 3 of Wentz 4 years.
I guess the Eagles didn't know how to use analytics or that should not have drafted Wentz.
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It seems as though Philly won the Super bowl with Foles at QB, and has not been back since with Foles or Wentz playing.
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Let's not forget that Wentz can't "win" a game to save his life. If the game is on the line, he's a flat out "no-show". I'm not saying the jury is in, he seems like he has all the tools in the belt. Time will tell with Wentz, certainly not a no-brainer.
Mac is just running around like Chicken Little, looking for any opportunity to type "DePodesta's Moneyball Scheme".
PS... I think Huey later revealed that he "wanted Wentz all along"... Or was it Jimmy G? Or Garoppolo? It's always hard to keep up with Huey's version of history.
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I get part of it, Mac. But had we dropped Wentz into Berea, would we have had multiple playoffs as well? I couldn't expect that, that he could carry this. He was good enough to trigger the Iggles to success in that division. BM is not effectively there in light of last year IMO. But he is getting some pieces that could easily let that happen. Or so I say.
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just to assuage my curiosity , pit, could you tell me who some of these folks are who think analytics are the “magic bullet” and that everything will be “peaches and cream” with the use of analytics. My guess is that will be a very short list. Most people agree with depo who said it is a tool to use to obtain an advantage , nothing more.
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All you have to do is read the board. I do agree with you that it should be a tool. But you have at least three people we know of who will be reporting to Haslam. One of the three is Depo. That puts him on equal footing with the top people in the organization.
I'm not saying that won't work. What I'm saying is those wishing to downplay that fact wish to dismiss the obvious.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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EO..spin it any way that makes you feel better about the Browns success under Depodesta's Moneyball scheme. For the n-teenth time, quit using the phrase "Moneyball Scheme". "Moneyball" has nothing to do with what we're doing as a Football team. It is a specific baseball strategy based on analytics that was employed where one team is forced to play with a much smaller budget than much larger teams. By placing value on important statistical categories, they were able to bring in players for a fraction of the cost, which had the same impact as players that larger teams were paying out the nose for. This has NOTHING to do with Football. There is a salary cap and a level playing field. There's is no need for this kind of approach, this isn't what Depo is doing, and "Moneyball" isn't some sort of blanket term for any analytics approach. You sound like a guy trying to use big words to sound like you know what you're talking about, but you're using the words all wrong. It's both neanimorphic and sesquipedalian. The 1-31 belongs to Haslam and Depodesta with a bit of Sashi thrown in. And this is the other part of the equation that drives me up the wall. I swear, some people can't see the forest from the trees. The 1-31 was part of a FIVE year plan were the goal was to strip things down, amass assets, accept that we probably weren't going to be good for those first few years, then turn around and use those assets to build a solid foundation for the team going forward. Quit acting like that going back to analytics just means we'll approach every year like we did those first two year. Wasn't it Depodesta who ran the analytics on Carson Wentz and openly opined that Wentz wasn't a franchise caliber QB? Look up the stats on Wentz lately. He's pretty much similar to Baker Mayfield. The team he was on was also good enough to march through the playoffs and win a Super Bowl without him. But lets not forget the most important part of getting a QB: having a team around him to help him succeed. The best way to ruin a QB is to stuff him on a bad team and try starting him right away. We were in no shape to draft Wentz back then. He likely would of been pushed to be a starter and likely would have ended up no better than Kizer. I feel like the goal was to build up the lines first, amass assets and high draft picks, assume that we'd lose some games while we're doing that, and then use those high picks to grab a QB and skill players on a team that had OL/DL's ready to go ... which is sort of what we did anyway. I also find people dissecting quotes about previous draft picks a bit hysterical. Like what else do you expect a person employed by the team to say? "That Coleman pick was awful! I wanted Keanu Neal, but that bum of a Head Coach, Jackson wanted to go WR!". For the most part, everyone's going to echo the company line.
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Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 13,301
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 13,301 |
EO..spin it any way that makes you feel better about the Browns success under Depodesta's Moneyball scheme. For the n-teenth time, quit using the phrase "Moneyball Scheme". "Moneyball" has nothing to do with what we're doing as a Football team. It is a specific baseball strategy based on analytics that was employed where one team is forced to play with a much smaller budget than much larger teams. By placing value on important statistical categories, they were able to bring in players for a fraction of the cost, which had the same impact as players that larger teams were paying out the nose for. This has NOTHING to do with Football. There is a salary cap and a level playing field. There's is no need for this kind of approach, this isn't what Depo is doing, and "Moneyball" isn't some sort of blanket term for any analytics approach. You sound like a guy trying to use big words to sound like you know what you're talking about, but you're using the words all wrong. It's both neanimorphic and sesquipedalian. The 1-31 belongs to Haslam and Depodesta with a bit of Sashi thrown in. And this is the other part of the equation that drives me up the wall. I swear, some people can't see the forest from the trees. The 1-31 was part of a FIVE year plan were the goal was to strip things down, amass assets, accept that we probably weren't going to be good for those first few years, then turn around and use those assets to build a solid foundation for the team going forward. Quit acting like that going back to analytics just means we'll approach every year like we did those first two year. Wasn't it Depodesta who ran the analytics on Carson Wentz and openly opined that Wentz wasn't a franchise caliber QB? Look up the stats on Wentz lately. He's pretty much similar to Baker Mayfield. The team he was on was also good enough to march through the playoffs and win a Super Bowl without him. But lets not forget the most important part of getting a QB: having a team around him to help him succeed. The best way to ruin a QB is to stuff him on a bad team and try starting him right away. We were in no shape to draft Wentz back then. He likely would of been pushed to be a starter and likely would have ended up no better than Kizer. I feel like the goal was to build up the lines first, amass assets and high draft picks, assume that we'd lose some games while we're doing that, and then use those high picks to grab a QB and skill players on a team that had OL/DL's ready to go ... which is sort of what we did anyway. I also find people dissecting quotes about previous draft picks a bit hysterical. Like what else do you expect a person employed by the team to say? "That Coleman pick was awful! I wanted Keanu Neal, but that bum of a Head Coach, Jackson wanted to go WR!". For the most part, everyone's going to echo the company line. 
HERE WE GO BROWNIES! HERE WE GO!!
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