DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum rac to stick with frye

[color:"orange"]Let me ask you a couple questions...

1. Why is Troy Smith a topic of discussion in this thread that has nothing to do with him?
2. If Troy Smith played for Florida State, would you give a crap about him? [/color]

I have no problem going back with Frye.

We now have information and have seen what Derek can do.

Now it is time to see if Charlie can elevate his game knowing he can't just show up and have the job as it has been the past year or so.

This is all good. One way or the other we will get better QB play and now is the time to expect it.



Plus......I know how this is going to end up so I am not worried about it with 2 games left in this failure of a season.

Frye gets more criticism because of 16 interceptions and the game against the Chargers in which the ball was handed to him over and over in great field position only to see him throw to the chargers secondary on what seemed to be play after play after play.

He gets more criticism because his 4th quarter performances are as bad as it gets.

He gets more criticism because he runs for the sake of running.

He gets more criticism because he throws floaters across his body over the middle of the field.

Frankly he gets more criticism because he has played a full season and there is no progression in his game at all.

Can't argue with that Ytown, except that I think it's equally, or more, important to know you will get a chance to come back after an injury. People slam some of our players for not wanting to put it all out there to make the catch, but if I had Josh Cribbs behind me, and I thought laying it out might lose me a job, I'd think twice.

I agree. People were giving Chuck a pass after 2 starts.


But those are just details people don't really want to hear.

I don't disagree. He should.

And now he knows he needs to step it up in a hurry because his back-up is playing as well or better than he has with far less experience.

Chuck either gets it done or he sits......well....maybe not...Romeo is pretty goofy about that sort of thing.

I couldn't agree with you more. The problem is we really don't have anyone who is being held back in spite of his brilliant play. I yearn for the day when our backups are fighting for playing time. Nobody's sitting on the bench who could do any better. A coach can't just come out and say "All my guys suck" and expect them to respond well. RAC is working with what he's got, and that's just a few bodies shy of a football team.

The disaster we have witnessed this year has been a true team effort. Yes sir, there has been unity in the face of misery. From the front office to the guys who clean the training room, this year has been a real stinker.

I wish it weren't so. Our Browns just stink this year. They've been fun to watch this year, but they stink.

J.

[color:"orange"]That isnt the point of dispute, Mourgym.

It's the fact that if Frye did what Anderson did in Baltimore last weekend, he'd have been criticized, not called the answer to our problems.

That's just a fact.

Frye has deserved criticism this year, and he's taken his share of it.
when a guy comes in Frye's stead and doesnt play better and makes similar mistakes, he's somehow a much better player?

Get the difference now? [/color]

Amen! Along with not losing your job due to injury, one shoulld not feel comfortable enough to think they just deserve it. I hope knowing we have a quality backup will motivate him. I guess we'll see.

Ouch. At least we don't have 1st-round money tied up in either. <img src="/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif" alt="" />

lets see
Mechanics? Anderson
Stronger arm? Anderson
quicker release? Anderson
pocket presense? Anderson
Accuracy? Anderson can thread the needle, Charlie cant
decision making? 10tds 16ints vs 5tds and 4ints guess what Anderson
Red zone efficiency? Again Mr. Anderson
Deep ball? Frye
clutch performance? It may not be Anderson but it sure aint frye with 2tds and 7ints in the 4th.
Mobility? Frye

Correct.

It is also a fact guys who make 2 starts get viewed a bit differently than a guy with a years worth of starts and a off-season knowing he has the job.

Here is a fact: At some point in almost anything, the honeymoon lasts only so long.

jc...


The reality of the situation is that Crennel doesn't want a huge controversy here during these last 2 games, he wants his team to be as cohesive as it can, and the basic rule is that you don't lose your job to injury (unless your backup just plays lights out).

He's just trying to finish out the year on the same line he started and then deal with the QB issue in the off-season.

Both have advantages and both have disadvantages, neither has just wowed anyone.

For coach....


I understand that we suck and that our QB play is below average. I am not sure why anybody would roll their eyes over that assessment. If there was ANY OTHER TEAM In the league that had our QB situation i would let this pass. But if you would, please answer me this...

How many NFL team currently have a starting QB that was drafted outside of the first 2 rounds?

From that group, how many of them are winnning or have won in the past? (winning means winning records, playoff appearances and superbowl appearances because we know there is one of those out there)

Then tell me why is it that the browns see the fact that a 6th round practice squad QB starts outplaying their 3rd round draft pick and the organization and most of the fans see this as a good thing??. I mean we made a switch when an UDFA showed up a #1 overall pick a few years back, why not now??

I think the situation is clear that we need a QB sometime in the near future as Savage tries to build this team.

What is next?? a hot dog vendor is going to hit RAC with a bullet from the upper deck, and then people will say "damn that guys has a cannon and he is mobile" maybe he should get a shot!!






I merely replied to DC that i cant understand why people are enamored with either of our QB's and how it is undertandable that people would be interested in Smith.

I dont care if our QB comes from the University of Pigdick Arkansas! My whole point is this...

Our QB's suck

It is easy to see why some people are thinking that drafting a QB isnt a worse idea than letting either of the guys we curently have another go.


I think we have sucked for so bad for so long that people can no longer objectively evaluate the browns against normal professional franchises.

I know....I should be patient. <img src="/images/graemlins/plthumbsdown.gif" alt="" />

How many 1st round QBs have won a Super Bowl?

When has a 6th round pick outplayed a 3rd round pick this year, because to an unbiased eye, it hasn't happened in Cleveland.

So, how long do you give a QB to learn with all the other problems on the team? I guess one year is enough to judge any QB, huh? If you think so, you obviously haven't followed football very long to see what happened in the careers of Troy AIkman, Brett Favre, Tom Brady, Steve Young, Jeff Garcia, Matt Hassellback...want me to keep going? All of those struggled and never looked like much their first year in the league. All but one has been to the Super Bowl and all but two have won one. QB is the least of why this team isn't winning. Until you fix that, you don't know what ANY QB can do. Passing judgement now is absurd and I for one am glad that RAC and Savage understand that and have a better grasp on it than many of the posters.

Coach the confusing and frustrating thing about the whole issue is that you have a majority of fans who question the talent on the Browns team in pretty much every unit... even LB, which is probably the strongest unit on paper... It's all about how we don't have the RB we need or the OL we need or the secondary we need or the DL we need... Depending on who you talk to, we are anywhere from 4 players to 14 new talented players away from competing... yet in the back of so many peoples mind, there is still this Tom Brady story waiting to happen if we could just find the right QB.... <img src="/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

So one of 3 things has to be true...

Either we have a talented team being held back by the quarterback, or....
we have a talented quarterback being held back by lack of supporting talent, or...
we have a growing team and a growing quarterback who at times, hold each other back...

I'll vote for #3... <img src="/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> and until ONE unit emerges, it will always be difficult to judge the units because they are SOOO dependent on each other...

Tony Romo: Dallas. Undrafted

Tom Brady: New England. 6th round

Marc Bulger: St Louis 6th round

Jake Delhomme: Carolina. Undrafted

Matt Hasselbeck: Seattle. 6th round.

David Garrard: Jacksonville. 4th round.

There's a half dozen right off the top of my head.

Coach I am not biased, I did state before that people see what they want to see meaning their likes and dislikes. I see more in the play of DA than I do in the play of Frye.

Are those guys the exception to the rule Coach??

I mean Trent Dilfer won a superbowl, are you telling me that he is a good QB should he still be our QB with Charlie on the bench??

I guess it has been proven that anybody can win with a great team around them but to imply that we need to give Charlie more time because of what happened to those guys, wont fly with most people.



Charlie probably isnt even going to surpass Couches numbers from his rookie season.

That is what I was asking for some basis to compare.

Is Charlie better than any of those guys?? From memory all of those guys came into the league pretty hot.


How has Frye come in???

[color:"white"]From memory all of those guys came into the league pretty hot.
[/color]

how long did those guys sit behind a vet?

Not sure knox....

Maybe Charlie should still be sitting behind Dilfer.

I dont dislike Charlie, lets get that straight here but i havent seen anything form him that makes me feel good about the future. I am truly more upset with the organization over the way they have handled the QB situation almost more than the O-line as they tried to upgrade the O-line.

Once a QB loses confidence it is real hard to get back.

It even harder to win back the fans.

At least for the one's lacking the talent to throw some TD's and win some games.

If a kid really has the talent, the confidence isn't going to be a problem. It only becomes a problem for the marginal player.

Bulger didn't play a down his first year, then took over a Rams offense that was hot and played well in the last 7 games of his second year.. his third year he had "Frye-esque" numbers, then in his 4th year he started picking up his play.

Hasselbeck didn't start a game until his 3rd year and when forced into action that year, in 12 games had 7 TDs and 8 INTs.. since then he's gotten better gradually but never being really dominant...

Jake Delhomme started 2 games in his first 5 years.

David Garrard started 8 games in his first 4 years and since taking over as full time starter this year has 8 TDs, 8 INTs and a qb rating of 77.1...

Actually, from memory, all of those QBs did NOT come in "pretty hot". In fact, most didn't even get to play their first few years. rett Favre was traded from the Falcons and thought to be a bust by them. Steve Young was considered a joke at TB before going to the Niners to back up someone that could teach him the game. Jeff Garcia, see Steve Young. Troy AIkman was 1-15 in his first season. Tom Brady never saw a down until Bledsoe was injured.

My point is two-fold. First, it takes time for a QB to develop. Second, the impatience shown by the typical Brown fan would have run all of those QBs out of Cleveland before they had a chance to become what they did become.

Is Charlie one of those types? No one really knows. The problem is that the same people that have continued to want to dump every QB we've had since 99 without allowing anything to develop are the same group that are now wanting to do the same thing. It would make much more sense to actually let players develop before running them out of town after one season worth of games. That kind of impatience is typical of a casual fan that doesn't care or is too frustrated to remember it takes time to develop a player and a team. When a player and a team is both learning together, the struggles will be huge. Like I said, if you people would have been fans of the Cowboys when Jones purchased them, you would have run every one of those players on a 1-15 team out of town and never enjoyed the dynasty they created.

[color:"red"]"Everyone is all over this "read speed" thing. While I agree that Derek seems to have a faster release, the coaching staff had just started pushing a 3.2 second clock with the QBs before the KC game. We saw vastly improved results from Charlie in KC in this respect, but I guess because it was just half a game its being ignored? Charlie plays his best half of football in a Browns uniform, but so few have an interest in seeing if he's turned a corner or if it was just an anomoly. Aren't you atleast intrigued?"

[color:"orange"]Danglet...thankyou and may I commend you in your thought process.

I am too long winded to bring out this point as well as you have. That's it in a nutshell...btw its what made Brady a success. This is something brought in here and administered by Davidson which just might mean he is the guy to run our Offense.

I thought CF made a major breakthrough in the KC game. They credit Warner with his time spent in Arena football to make him the SB QB that he became because of his quick time football. Brady goes and wins 3 SBs.

Now we install it and all of a sudden CF has probably the 2 most beautiful long drives that I have witnessed since 99 and the second after coming back from his wrist injury. Enter DA.

All of a sudden we have a pocket...hey gues what quicktime is what makes that seemingly mediocre looking OL in NE good enough to win SBs with rookies and even depth. Also against Baltimore even though we ran only 16 times we still avg. over 4 yds per carry a lot of that had to do with the success of our passing.

Since Quick time was put in we actually have picked up the blitz and had success against it.

Excellent observation. I think CF might give us a better dimension in this quick time offense than DA provides. I am thrilled with the success DA has had but not cause I'm convinced he's the guy...cause I think he's a viable 2nd banana which was a question mark before this.

The media wants to run the Browns...they think as long as we have a losing record they are smarter. They're idiots. I too was impressed with CF in this quick time offense - all be it one half! But to ignore it and go with DA I think is totally narrow minded in the actual football change that incurred at this time. And DA has not led us to victory to warrant this adulation. Its just another bad example of being impatient and first impressionism. Without looking at the facts. I 'm glad you brought the facts out and outside of a new poster gage...I don't think many acknowledged this observation. When it is so important in this discussion.

I'm curious too. CF did nothing to lose his starting position. Clearly an injury took him out. His replacement has exceeded expectations and this has numbed many observers brains to envision that he is "THE ONE". I see we have a capable 2nd string QB here and that is a pleasant surprise. I think everyone is more enamored with Davidson's new quick time offense brought in from NE and just don't know it!

It will not surprise me one bit if CF is the starter and DA is #2 no competition.

JMHO

Could be true. Nice post.

I hope so. I have long felt that our offense looked slow and plodding and out of sync... the obvious thing was to blame the players but it always seemed like it was more than that... If there is any truth to this then I'm doubly glad that he is still with us and not Mich. State.

Iwas referring to a different list of players coach

this is what i was responding to.

Tony Romo: Dallas. Undrafted

Tom Brady: New England. 6th round

Marc Bulger: St Louis 6th round

Jake Delhomme: Carolina. Undrafted

Matt Hasselbeck: Seattle. 6th round.

David Garrard: Jacksonville. 4th round

I clealry remember 5 out of 6 of those guys being successful right off the bat or atleast opening eyes.

Point taken on the patience coach but I have had patience since I was old enough to go to the old muni with my Dad. We havent won squat. EVER.

Typical browns fan?? If you mean that I hate losing and am sick and tired of being embarrased then so be it. I have had season tickets since i could afford one on my own. I personally feel the the only thing worse than typical impatients are the folks who are always willing to wait til next year , and have been waiting since 64 and reward mediocre to below avergae play with loyalty normally reserved for stars.

Charlie was given his job. He had no competition for it and he has not shown to be clearly better than Anderson. I am not saying to dump him but maybe he needs to feel the heat of competition, and if he cant prove it on the field, then we can all be patient with him on the bench. Sittign and learning

For the responses I have gotten to this thread you would think that I was trying to run Bernie Kosar out of town.

Which 5?

That was a Grantham rumor I believe.

Well THANKS.. now I feel as foolish as Shotty... <img src="/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />


<img src="/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

[color:"red"]"If there is any truth to this then I'm doubly glad that he is still with us and not Mich. State."

[color:"orange"]Just an FYI...it was Grantham our DC not Davidson our OC rumored to be going to MSU.

aldamon: please give more of the credit to danglet - I saw this too as have been stating to all that I was pleased with CF's first half w/KC in a lot of the DA for QB threads but forgot about the quick time O being implemented at that game and continued from their on - a complete oversight that we simply have continued that quicktime Offense until danglet reminded me. <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

JMHO

Several comments everyone needs to remember coming from Rac:

[color:"white"] "There are questions on the quarterback," he said. "He played decent, but in his effort to make plays he made some mistakes. He could do better. He needs to realize he isn?t going to be able to outrun people ..that isn?t going to happen very often." [/color]

Rac hates mistakes...and it seemed his mood was ticked about the picks..one which was Braylons' fault..

Rac was asked about using the word intriguing on DA. and showing enough to warrant being looked at to start ...Rac said after the KC game U would say yes, now as we continue to play there's some (half chuckle)things that are beginning to happen that hey, we don't know so we'll see.
''When Frye was healthy we felt we could win with him, and he's still on the team"..

RAC should stick with Charlie, DA has been here for awhile, RAC new what he brings, and if DA was better than he should have beaten Charlie last summer in camp, DA didnt turn into Dan Marino sitting on our bench for 4 months, DA is still the same qb we saw in preseason games, only now he's gotten some game play, but he still is the same QB who won the 2nd string job.

OK FINE.. I MADE A MISTAKE... SHEESH, let it go.. <img src="/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

DC...

Tony Romo: Dallas. Undrafted

Tom Brady: New England. 6th round

Marc Bulger: St Louis 6th round

Jake Delhomme: Carolina. Undrafted

David Garrard: Jacksonville. 4th round

I dont remember any of those guys not winning some games and making things happen in their first chances at starting. Delhomme while having a lackluster year had a great season in his first full season as the Panther's starter.

I remember Gerrard playing damn well in his first couple of starting opportunties in relief of Leftwhich when Leftwhich had the broken ankle

Bulger had nice success walking into a nice O

and Brady well.........he did alright!

I know Hass was the starter to open the 01 season for the hawks but i dont really remember what he did getting started.

I'm not going to debate them all... and Yea, Carolina went 11-5 in Delhommes first full season, but consider these circumstances... the year before Jake was brought in to start the Panthers went 7-9 with the #2 ranked defense in the NFL... Delhomme had been sitting on the bench learning for FIVE full years.... and his numbers were fairly pedestrian with under 60% completions, 3200 yards, 19 TDs and 16 Ints... the best thing Delhomme has ever done was keep his INTs under 1 a game.. this year his INT number is creeping up and they are struggling...

As for the rest of your list, I'm pretty sure that every other qb on your list, other than Brady (who is the exception and not the rule) sat for at least 3 full seasons before being asked to take over.....

Hi DC, how's it going? <img src="/images/graemlins/azzangel.gif" alt="" />

Good, you? <img src="/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Great, I've never thought Davidson was in the running for the MSU job. <img src="/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif" alt="" />