DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Palus Politicus Honest question on abortion

In any scenario outside of the body, it's the parents and doctor who ultimately decide rather on not to pull the plug. It's not the government saying you must at all costs keep the baby on the machines. Of course there are guidelines, you don't pull the plug on a baby that doing well and making progress. And you don't kill the healthy child outside the womb because it's murder. I've heard those arguments loud and clear many times, and I do struggle with the decision... but ultimately it's not my decision to make. I'm not the teen mother that had one stupid night with a boy that ran the second he found out the result of the pregnancy test leaving me the responsibility of a child when I'm little more than a child myself. I'm not the kid facing giving up all their dreams to make the necessary sacrifices needed to raise a baby on my own. I'm not the girl that was raped. I'm not the woman on drugs knowing I can't care for a child. I'm not the female that has to choose between career and motherhood. I'm not the woman who used protection but got pregnant anyway and knows they would make a horrible mother, or are unprepared to be a good mother, or any number of other reasons that motivate women to do this. And it's not like you just go to the doctor and no questions are asked, no counseling is given, no time is allowed for you to think about what you are doing, no thought is put into the morality of the action... Who has the right to decide what this woman or girl MUST do. Nobody but her, that's who.

These 20 week bills that are being passed are a little too fast IMHO. Plenty of women either don't realize or may not seek out a doctor until about that time. Some have issues with their periods being irregular due to birth control or other causes and are clueless until the belly grows or the fetus starts noticeably moving. One of my daughters was 16 weeks before she went to be tested. She was 14 weeks before she was even worried about it. She didn't get an abortion but it should have been a choice if she needed to get one. 24-26 weeks is a good range for choice to end IMHO. There are too many variables in every situation for the government to do much more without infringing on a females individual freedoms. And to those that argue about the rights of the child, I say rights are for people and you are not a person until you are born. Banning abortion in the late term or third trimester is enough protection for the person that could be but isn't until birth.

Now if technology, science, data, or any other advancement changes the situation then we could debate that at that time. Like suddenly being able to remove the fetus at any stage and transplant it into another woman wanting a child, or an unwanted child being put in an actual loving caring system that guarantees it a happy healthy life without social shaming of the woman giving it up, or assisted viability at 12 weeks becoming not just possible but common place... then I could see a ban on abortion.

No, because there is breast milk substitutes if breast milk isn't available.

I appreciate the reply. My brain is fried for a number of reasons so I think I'm going to taper off my contributions for tonight. I'm sure you're not surprised when I say I don't agree with how you've prioritized some of your considerations. And that's totally ok. I do respect the fact that you at least believe that there is a balance to be struck, even if we haven't quite figured out what that balance is. I think that is much more productive than taking a religious or political absolutist position.

I won't go tit for tat about infant dietary needs. You called it a parasite and there for doesn't rate any consideration as a person until it is born. My point is simply that the infant is still no less dependent upon the mother for nourishment whether it be directly through breast feeding or indirectly through formula, cereal, etc. That parasitic relationship is still there even though there is no bio-mechanical mechanism to physically latch on to the host.


I'm still waiting for someone to actually explain the significance of being "born". There is no significant change in development that occurs just because you are out of the womb. Its not like your heart suddenly starts, brain activity and responses to stimuli just suddenly begin. Those are human functions that have been occurring long before. In that 24hr span there is no difference in what you are whether you are in the womb, on the hospital cart, or in the car seat on the ride home.

What, because we have laws against murder? We also allow for justifiable homicide. According to a few, there are many justifiable reasons to terminate before being "born". And until someone can explain the significance of being "born" then the same justifications apply after being "born". Science has shown that who and what you are 2 minutes after popping out the womb is no different than who and what you were 2 minutes before popping out.

Maybe its something as simple as f its out of sight its easier to deny what it actually is?

Also on the topic of law.. how do you feel about states that convict a person of 2 counts of murder when they kill 1 pregnant woman? doesn't a second life sentence seem pretty harsh for a clump of cells that will never become a person?

Here's why I think the whole oppressing women argument is BS. People who use it, don't present it as something to be discussed. It's used to stunt discussion, to ridicule, and to shame.

Let's run a realistic hypothetical Eve: one of your female friends announces she's pregnant. Do you wait until the baby is born to congratulate her? Of course not! When she invites you to the baby shower or the gender reveal, do you turn it down saying "Nah, its only a clump of cells, call me when its no longer a parasite"? Of course not! And when you do go to that shower or party, do you walk up to her and say "Gee, I do't understand why you're so excited, its not like its a person yet?" Of course you don't!

And why? Because you respect her and her partners belief that the "clump of cells" IS a person. You don't ridicule them for making up the nursery, or picking names (though maybe behind their back if they are terrible names lol). You don't call her a sell out to feminism or call him an oppressor of women because of that belief.

Yet when someone expresses that same belief they have in a forum like here? And look, there's nothing in my posts that dictate what a woman can or can't choose to do. The position I've started to present is simply a rationale as to why a fetus should be given the consideration of a person prior to being born. The only constraint on a woman's choices that it implies is the exact same constraint she or anyone would have when it comes to ending any other person's life.

Now ultimately where I see the balance is not so dissimilar to OCD's really. For me the cut off for an abortion should be the stage of development where we can see not only see neurological activity, but also the stage of development where we see responses to external stimuli. Where that exactly is, I'm not so sure but it is something that science can verify. I've chosen this point in development because I think its a firm step in demonstrating human function. Prior to that? A person's reasons are their own as far as I'm concerned.

I'm not religious so I won't argue this from a religious perspective. We as humans don't have any understanding of what a soul is or the origins of consciousness that I don't think they can currently be meaningfully applicable.

Actually, your statement that my views on marriage and abortion are based on my religious beliefs is not correct. I was pro life and traditional marriage when I used to hate Christianity. Yes, I used to hate Christianity. I didn’t hate Christians, but I hated what Christianity taught. And at that time, I was pro life and traditional marriage. I was pro life and pro traditional marriage, though I did not wear those labels, based on purely philosophical and moral considerations. Same reason I thought betraying a friend was wrong, for example

So to say those view are based on religion is a fallacy. I know plenty of non Christians they hold to both

Tired and lame? Kick rocks man.

Good job of taking THEIR argument to its logical conclusion.

That's the great thing about America. You can choose not to have an abortion. Oh, that's right, you never have to actually face such a choice. You just wish to make that choice for others.

And you don't have to get gay married. You have a choice on that. No reason for you to have the right to take choices away from others. Believe what you believe and follow your own beliefs.

What was your faith before you converted?

Hedonism

I have a choice to vote and to speak. No liberal can take that away from me.

Not a religion but I get what you mean. Did you believe in god then?

Yes. I was a hater of God. Simply believing God exists does not condition your moral beliefs. I was a fornicator, a blasphemer, involved in occultism, promoted satanism, a drug abuser, and worked hard to convert others to my way of life. I also have deliiberately gone into churches with friends with the intent to openly mock them.

Btw, you didn’t ask me what my religion was. You asked me what my faith was. Faith is what you believe and value. It’s not necessarily a religion

I do not consider my Christian Faith a religion. Faith begins with an internal state leading to an external change. Religion is an attempt to achieve that same internal state through external means.

In my experience, religion alone is an exercise in futility. But when faith enters the heart, it is one of the most powerful things. Only love is more powerful than faith

Lol the irony..... trump is taking those away day by day. ...Enjoy.... Long live the king.

You must not have been reading the thread. The only people on this topic wishing to take choices away from Americans are people just like you. You can vote and speak all you like. But when you try and take choices away from Americans who think differently than you do, you just turned into the very kind of person you claim to dislike.

Bro everybody who has an abortion takes away the babies choice. For the life of me knowing your heart (your a hell of a nice guy who worries about people you know and don't even know. ) I can't figure out why you don't stand up for the unborn. I know damn well you would be yelling and screaming if 5 million people murdered their one day old kids, yet you side with those who kill them just a tad sooner. I love you bro, but I just don't don't understand.

I have stood up for the unborn in my family. I had to help share making that choice in my family twice. I stood up for birth in both cases. In both cases babies were born and I'm thankful every day for it.

I don't stand up for abortion. I stand against dictating what I believe on others.

I know you support abortion even though you don't believe in it. I give you mad props for that bro. WhatI have trouble understanding is when you have trouble dictating what you believe to others.

You have always spoke your mind as long as I have known you. You have always stood up for what you believe in. But when it comes to killing babies, you don't believe in it, yet you support those do it. Speaking for myself only I just don't understand that.

I don't like abortion either, but I don't think it's my right or anyone else's to take choice away from women. But now that I have had kids, had grandkids, and have time to look at the state of the world in general, I don't mind telling you that on certain days I wish the majority of the planet would just become sterile. Seven billion pushing eight billion is just to damn many people. The planet and mankind would be better off if that number were reduced to a quarter or less.

Until they stop charging murderers with double homicide for killing pregnant women I don't want to hear how abortion is not murder. Just because it's the mother killing the child doesn't change the fact that an innocent life is being snuffed out.

Convenience can shove it. If you don't want a baby then use birth control, stay sober, and/or keep your friggen pants on.

Mayor Pete, is that you?

I’m more convinced than ever that all boys should be given vasectomies on their 15th birthday. Problem solved.

Thankfully women can tell you to shove it.

I'm sure a lot of men with teenage daughters would agree.

Thats how she got pregnant.

there is a story out there that an alabama lawmaker want's it to be Mandatory that men have Vasectomies at Age 50. LOL Ted Cruz is going nuts on it...LOL

no pun intended

Herein lies the problem. All men with teenage boys should also be agreeing.
See it’s only the teenage daughters that pay the real price. The onus is placed on them in our society. Pregnancy. Raising a child as a child. Hence you stated what you stated the way you stated it. That mindset is problematic.

PSA: Please spay and neuter your pets and teenagers...

If you would look, my main beliefs stand on one principal almost every time. Don't deprive others their choices or rights based on your own beliefs. Here are some examples.....

Abortion. My belief system is something I don't plan to inflict on others.

Healthcare. Medicare for all who want it. I think it's 100% wrong to force anyone off of their current healthcare plan. They should have a choice. I feel it's also wrong to deny your fellow Americans healthcare. I see it as a human rights issue.

Gun control. I'm against restricting weapons from our citizens. I do however feel that we need stronger background checks to make sure that guns don't fall into the hands of the wrong people.

I also think that there should be come accountability for those who own guns. Here's an example......



So there are 21 guns on the streets of Nashville this year alone due to people leaving them in unlocked vehicles.



There are a lot of things that I don't believe in that at the same time I refuse to try and use my beliefs to inflict them on the rights of others.

I have the right to live life as I see fit. I have the right to try and guide my family to follow those beliefs. What I don't feel I have a right to do is use my beliefs to restrict the choices of others. I don't have the right to inflict my beliefs on others where it gets to the point that my beliefs or religion is inflicted upon them.

My main belief system is Christian. But every time someone mentions prayer is schools I ask, "So where are the Muslim students going to store their prayer rugs?" You either accommodate all religions or no religion.

So you turn a blind eye to the horrors of abortion, so horrible you can't even post the process here.

You will not truly understand the atrocities you promote in the name of it being none of your business what others do.

It all reminds me of those townspeople who turned a blind eye to the Nazi Concentration Camps in their areas until one day they were forced to walk through them and see what they had allowed or enabled others to do.

That blood was on their hands too.

I know this goes completely over your head and in no way is anyone surprised by that, but I don't promote it.

And you of all people have no room to talking about people turning a blind eye to Nazis.

all I do is vote and speak, my constitutioinal rights I don't know what youre talking about

40 turned a blind eye to the Nazis? He must be over 100

How old were you in WW2, 40?

Youre here dictating what you believe as much as anyone else

yep, theres three viable CHOICES right there

You are here stating your beliefs ther same we are, So how is what youre doing any different than what were doing?

BTW, I have no problem with Muslims praying in school or anywhere else, Let the Muslems pray together and the Christians pray together in set places It will prepare them to be real Americans, not afraid of allowing others freedom of religion, and not afraid to disagree with other religions, not anti religion.

Because there are so many faiths, I don't think it is possible to require prayer in classrooms, so I never push for that. But there will always be prayer in classrooms, silent between student and God

A good example of Leftist bigotry

When my daughter was in Middle School, she took the time to silently thank God for her food in the cafeteria. A teacher told her prayer wasn't allowed in school. My daughter educated her

I was at work on my lunch break, I worked at Taco Bell years ago. I had two Pentecostal preacher friends come in, and we talked Bible on my lunch break. Some silly woman I worked with said "you shouldn't talk about God at your workplace." I educated her.

practicing your religious freedom in public is not forcing your beliefs on others. Not even on message boards.

And VOTING on an issue is not forcing your belief on others. If it is, basically everyone forces their beliefs on others when they vote. We all vote based on our worldview, in part

If abortion was retroactive until age 21. Teenagers would behave well.

I guess I should have used purple for you