DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum The Future of our Defense

From what I've read, it seems like it's best to do it now instead of later and money is a big reason for that... on top of that, why wait? Get r done!

No real reason to wait as far as I can see. But still over three months away from any other team being able to talk to him.

We did the same already for Tretter, so that's somewhat comforting.

I'm not worried about not having a deal in place yet, but it's a little curious that there seems to be no movement at all (Schobert said no offer, but kinda made it sound like it was even quieter than that, when reading between the lines).

I'm sure we will offer him a new contract

he is one of the best LB's in the NFL.

I think Dorsey is letting the chips fall where they may to see how much we will pay Schobert and for how many years.

I'd bet Scho will be signing a 5 year 90 mill contract or 6 years 100 mill

j/c...

I could see them trading Kirksey before Schobert. Wilson has proved he can play, and probably will get better. I like Kirksey, but when was the last time he played a whole season.

I think this team, through regime after regime, jettisons good players too quickly. It's good to have good players.

Kirksey will cost another team almost $9 million and $10 million over the next 2 years, if traded.

He will have played 9 games in 2018-2019. He's also not a big play LB. That's not a value teams are looking for. He would definitely get a look as a free agent elsewhere .... but I just don't see anyone trading for him.

So Thompson gets 13.5 per year with 28 guaranteed. How's that work as far as cap hit if he is cut before June 1st of his final year. Are the Panthers on the hook for 7 million because guaranteed money is divided up by the year, but they would be off the hook for the other 6.5?

I would expect a long-term deal for Joe and I would expect him to play it out as a Brown. The dude is crazy athletic and is only 26. Say we gave him a 6 year deal through age 32. Sure he loses a step in the last year or so, but his headiness maintains the level of play. He's quoted as wanting to stay in Cleveland, so will a little less yearly average with more years entice him.

6 years 66 million with 42 guaranteed; 11 million per year with 7 guaranteed. He doesn't quite get the base salary of Thompson, but has the same guaranteed dollars per year and the added security of extended years.

Can the guaranteed dollars be front-loaded? Give him 8.5 the first four years for a total of 34 million. Year 5 comes and he is used up. The Browns could cut him before June 1st and only be out the final 8 million of the 42 and could save 7 per year on the cap right?

Yup, you can front load the heck out of it. There are limits on how much it varies from one year to the next as far as how you account for it, but you can definitely front-load. Plus, there are additional things you can do like roster and workout bonuses to get him additional front-loaded money.

Folks realize we are ranked 26th against the run with a 4.8 per carry at
128.2 per game. Why bother to pass a lot against us and throw dump off pass's.. Nickel and dime your way down the field ! See when posters talk about a Defense ranked 12 or 13 ; stats don't really add up ..

Myles Garrett is healthy and we can't watch him play.

NFL, No Fun!

Has he? Not snaky, just don't remember a full season.

Schobert. Needs rewarded IMO.

Still have the nagging feeling Browns will continue to drag their feet and let Schobert walk. Token offer that will be easily bested by another team. Will moan about the cap.

How many times and regimes do we see new(er) regimes undervalue talent they did not draft?

Kirksey in my opinion will not make the roster next year. We do not even play more than 2 LBs in our base D. Wilson, Takitaki, and a 2020 drafted LB is the future. I'll be happy if we sign Schobert, but I do not believe we will.

If they let Schobert walk, Dorsey is a fool!

Never thought I would ever say that!

Just because these GM's don't draft a player they inherit, it seems like they are hell bent to move them off the roster just for spite.

When did Dorsey ever say that?

Joe Schobert is our best player on defense. He also seems to be getting better. It would be a shame if we let him go because his best years are ahead of him.
Miles is a playmaker but needs more maturity and consistency.
Ward has great cover skills until he is forced to turn and run plus he seems brittle.
Williams has a long ways to go in all areas and should not be starting ahead of Mittchell.
Richardson and Oganjobi are solid.
Randle needs replaced.
Wilson looks like a keeper.
Redwine seems to be coming on.
Burris adds quality depth.
Taki Taki hasn't shown me anything.
Vernon has looked average.
Our offense hasn't done our defense any favors this year with turnovers but the defense still needs some pieces.

Just read a report by MKC the Browns plan to let Joe Shobert walk. Why should any of us be surprised?

I take anything MKC reports with a grain of salt.I just don't see how we could let Shobert walk

ICYMI, every headline that comes from MKC has one purpose and one purpose only.

I agree. I'll wait until Joe is not here before I believe he's not here. If for some reason they let Joe walk, this whole thing is upsetting and baffling.

We were set up for so much early success when Dorsey came in. It was a dream scenario for anyone they hired. But we jettison all our good players and continue to turn over the roster. Why?

What is the plan here?

There is no future with this defense.

I saw Hospital Ward walking off again. I couldn't hear....what was the problem this time?

It didn’t help that we had two DL playing today whom I didn’t know were on the roster. Ankou, and 97.

I would like to know that as well. And our tackling was criminally absent.

What are we building off of on either side of the ball? By about any measure, I feel we are playing worse than earlier this year, especially considering the strength of teams clobbering us, and in light of the class of the skill players we ares being. We make them look like world beaters. maybe it is time for the backup. Seems to work for other teams.

Just win, baby!

Is anyone ready to start saying Dorsey is failing?

We’ve seen worse. And the defense isn’t the issue...it’s discipline that a guy like Greg Williams brought us. Time to admit, Kitchens as HC was just another mistake in a long line of mistakes. Stop screwing around with first time ever head coach’s. Time to get an experienced SB winning HC here ASAP.

Imagine not having that extra second round pick from the Osweiler deal that netted us Chubb. If we had just one 2nd Rounder, the choice was Corbett > Chubb.

And he traded him away for what? a 4th rd pick?


Yikes.

5th round pick for Corbett.

Are you really trying to make a case for Sashi? Eww....


Re: the MKC article... I took the bait and clicked. I know I shouldn't have, but I did. I read the article, and there's absolutely nothing there. Her premise is that they're letting Schobert walk based on him not being signed yet. I sent a very snarky email to PFT about the practice of using MKC as a source.

I'll admit, letting Schobert walk is very much par for the course for the Browns, but I'll actually start worrying when we hear concrete evidence that Dorsey doesn't want to pay him.

Let’s talk about Cleveland Browns, Myles Garrett, Joe Schobert, front office decisions

https://www.cleveland.com/browns/2020/02...-decisions.html

By Terry Pluto, The Plain Dealer
ABOUT MYLES GARRETT

My guess is Myles Garrett agreed to talk to ESPN because he thought it was a way for fans to get to know him as something more than the guy who bashed Pittsburgh Steelers quarterback Mason Rudolph in the head with a helmet.

Garrett is an intelligent, thoughtful person who has distinguished himself in Northeast Ohio with his charity work and school appearances.

I don’t know Garrett well, but I like him as a player and a person.

When he says Rudolph said a racial slur in their altercation, I tend to believe him. Or at least, I believe he heard something very inflammatory. He said Rudolph used the N-word.

Rudolph and Steeler players who were close to the action deny it.

Garrett was suspended for the final six games of the season. It cost him more than $1.1 million in missed salary. He was demonized for a time as one of the worst perpetrators of violence in NFL history.

But in 2006, Albert Haynesworth did the following, as recounted by the Bleacher Report’s Ryan Rudnansky:

“In what would become known as “The Stomping Incident,” Haynesworth removed Dallas Cowboys center Andre Gurode’s helmet and stomped on his head, opening up a severe wound and narrowly missing his right eye. Haynesworth received a 15-yard unsportsmanlike penalty. When he protested and threw his helmet onto the field, another 15-yard penalty was assessed, and he was ejected. Shortly after, Haynesworth was given a five-game suspension.”

So let’s not pretend outlandish/dangerous behavior is new to football.

But at this point with the NFL lifting his suspension, I wish Garrett had simply let it go.

As he admitted to ESPN’s Mina Kimes:

"I didn’t want to try to use it as justification for my actions because there’s nothing to justify. There’s nothing that [he] can say or do to justify what I did on that day. I know what happened.

"I know what I heard and people say things when they’re heated or they’re full of emotion and I leave it on the field. He said it, but that was three months ago, four months ago now and I leave that behind.''

At this point, Garrett would be wise to take his own advice.



ABOUT THE DEFENSE

1. While some in the media and fans would like to see Garrett be more dominant, he had 10 sacks in 10 games. That projects to 16 in a full 16-game season, which would have ranked him fourth in the NFL. He still ranked No. 18, and no one in front of him played fewer than 14 games.

2. If the Browns are debating about bringing back Olivier Vernon for $15 million in 2020, they should just stop. Yes, the Browns need another defensive end. And yes, Vernon has been pretty good to Pro Bowl-caliber when he’s played. But he’s missed four, five and six games respectively over the last three years. He is injury prone, period.

3. I love Christian Kirksey as a person and team leader. But after playing all 16 games in each of his first four seasons, he’s played only 9-of-32 games in the last two years because of major injuries. His contract is $7.5 million. According to overthecap, the Browns have about $50 million in salary-cap room.

4. I would pass on Vernon and Kirksey, cutting $22.5 million off the salary cap. I’d use some of that cash to “overpay” for middle linebacker Joe Schobert, who has missed only three games in his first four seasons. He is a free agent. I heard he wanted big money, something like $13 million or more annually. New GM Andrew Berry was part of the 2016 front office that picked Schobert in the fourth round. This regime should appreciate his value to the team. Every defensive coordinator (he’s had three) raved about his knowledge of the game and leadership.

5. After Vernon and Garrett, there are few other options at defensive end. The John Dorsey front office drafted Chad Thomas and thought he could be a starter. He played in all 16 games (44 percent of snaps) and had four sacks. The other backup was Bryan Cox Jr., who didn’t play much.

6. The Browns have a pair of good defensive tackles in Sheldon Richardson and Larry Ogunjobi. Richardson played some defensive end near the end of the season and looked good. While there is a major need on the offensive line (perhaps two tackles), the defensive line also requires help.

7. A possible free agent for the Browns at defensive end? How about Carl Nassib? Yes, the same Carl Nassib who was a third-round Browns pick in 2016. The same Carl Nassib cut by Dorsey at the start of the 2018 season. And the same Carl Nassib who has 12.5 sacks in the last two seasons playing 50 percent of the snaps for the Tampa Bay Buccaneers.

8. Nassib was a victim of Dorsey’s purge. He would have helped the Browns the last two years and done it on a cheap rookie contract. I hope Berry doesn’t fall into the same trap of quickly dumping the previous regime’s draft picks without giving them serious consideration.

9. I wondered what happened to defensive end/outside linebacker Genard Avery, a fifth-round pick by Dorsey in 2018 who had a promising rookie year with 4.5 sacks. He fell out of favor with the Steve Wilks defense in 2019 and was traded to the Philadelphia Eagles for a fourth-round pick. He played only 33 snaps on defense for the Eagles. He was a core special teams player.

10. Here’s another reason I favor keeping Schobert, especially if Kirksey is gone. The other linebackers of note are Mack Wilson, Sione Takitaki and Adarius Taylor. Wilson showed some talent as an outside linebacker. Takitaki was injured early in the season, and didn’t play much (107 snaps for the season). They need a linebacker who knows how to keep order with younger players.

Pluto brings up Nassib.... All is right in the world.


#TheDorseyWay
#NotARealPlayer

The Browns brought back bums to the FO. Might as well bring bums players, too.

To be fair Carl Nassib outplayed Olivier Vernon.

Probably so. That still doesn't mean that Carl isn't just a guy.

I hope we can do a little better than him.

According to whom? PFF has Vernon at 80.4 overall and Nassib at 69.3.

Not that PFF is infallible, just curious as to what measure you're going by.

Didn't watch a lot of TB, but I'm guessing Nassib benefitted from cleanup sacks after someone else flushed a QB from the pocket like he did here (and at Penn St). Did he still leave gaping running lanes as he ran himself out of plays?

Nassib was probably still better than Chad Thomas, but Vernon was sneaky good when he played.

Are you sure about that?

Vernon's overall PFF grade for 2019 was 80.4
https://www.pff.com/nfl/players/olivier-vernon/7074

Nassib's overall PFF grade for 2019 was 69.3
https://www.pff.com/nfl/players/carl-nassib/10699

Nassib is absolutely just-a-guy. But he was/is better than the stiffs Dorsey brought in last year. His teammates voted him as a Captain.

Nassib made approx $2 million...Vernon made a cool $15.5 million.

Nassib was essentially a free late-round pick to Tampa. Vernon was - arguably - part of the package that cost us a 1st Rd pick and a Pro Bowl RG.

Nassib is 26 (?) and Vernon is 30.

I wish both guys were on my team.