DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Browns sign QB Case Keenum

Steering it back to football and avoiding low blows...

Jameis was also the number 1 pick, the issue here is that we will achieve nothing if Baker does not develop and improve. Its always a bad strategy to throw good money to cover bad investments.

Having CK in camp and competing for the starting spot is a good thing, its not quitting on Baker, its just being rational.

If we had a viable QB backup last year, we would probably go to the playoffs.

Keenum isn't competing for the starting spot.

He was brought here to put an adult in the room and be a mentor for Baker.

I agree with Diam, we'll know a lot about Baker after this year.

I guess I'm "overly positive" because of some of the "overly negative."

There are a lot of factors that contributed to Baker's poor performance last year including Baker.

I'm still all in on the kid. I'm not wavering after last season. He's still the same kid who was the best prospect in the 2018 draft. Still the same kid who loves football. Still the same kid who loves his teammates and plays for his teammates. Still the same kid who wants to win.

It's the dumb things like why would you draft a quarterback #1 who couldn't outrun the cops? Baker is spending too much time making commercials. People are not allowed to talk bad about Baker, he can do no wrong, blah blah blah.... that kinda stuff makes me shake my head.

In my mind there's still no doubt Baker is going to be a great quarterback in this league. Is there a chance he's not? Sure. If that time comes, I'll eat my crow.

I know I am pretty objective about Baker. I know my objective comments have been taken as being overly protective of him or me trying to make excuses for him.... it's just what some folks do. The same folks then go on to belittle and criticize others and attack their posts - normally indirectly. If challenged and their non-football posts are commented on, they then go back to "can we talk about football" ... it's a cycle that's played out repeatedly many, many, many times before. I wouldn't worry about what others opinion is (I know you don't) and just write what you think/feel.

To this quote above - I was with you 100% on taking Baker at #1. I want him to do well and I have faith he's going to pull himself up and do what he needs to in order to be successful ... but I need to see it, and probably am not as confident as you that there is no doubt about him succeeding. Baker had lots of issues outside his control last year, some of them significant - but Rookie Baker would have handled those adversities much better than how he actually handled them, he would have been more accurate and thrown less int's - he regressed and he needs to change and work on a lot of things to be the franchise QB the Browns need. I believe he can but don't know that he will for sure.

Your unwavering support and belief in Baker is one of the things that still gives me hope. I figure that if you ever change your position, he's probably not going to be very good.

His absolute biggest obstacle to becoming a great QB is that he has slow eyes. When you can physically see a guy go through his progressions, that's not a good thing. That needs to be fixed. Even in his rookie year they were slow, but confidence, bravado, and unfamiliarity have a way to carry you for awhile.

I hope this new staff can bring the best out of him.

The extreme dichotomy is what shows pure inconsistency when it comes to Baker.

In 2018, according to some, everything Baker did well was all credited to Baker. In 2019 when he performed poorly, most of it was all someone else's fault.

The lack of consistency on the topic is overwhelming.

Good advice.

Like Diam said.......and I have said on multiple occasions in the last few months......this is a big year for Baker.

He was second in the league in interceptions last year. He was near the bottom of the league in almost all qb categories. He made more news for the things he said off the field and for challenging a fan to a fight than he did for doing good things on the field.

These things must change. I hope they do.

Pit - I disagree. I don't believe anyone gave Baker "ALL" the credit to Baker for success his rookie campaign, although what he did and how he did it were such a bright spot for a QB starved team that I am sure the praise was extensive and looking at film, he did make some excellent NFL caliber throws. . . I also disagree that people are saying "MOST" of the problems with Baker last year were someone else's fault. Looking at film it's clear Baker wasn't as accurate and missed open receivers even when a play worked 'perfectly' despite any other factors or issues, and those plays were all on Baker.

I see things much as you do. But when reading the board that opinion can vary greatly form one poster to the next.

I think that as a player, not looking at other circumstances, he regressed last year. I think as a rookie he gave us a lot of optimism.

As of now I think the book is yet to be written as to how it all plays out. Year three usually tells us a lot about a drafted player. As a Browns fan I think we can all agree we hope we see more of the rookie Baker than what we saw last year. Even possibly better than the rookie Baker.

I think the key to him exceeding his Rookie year performance is going to be his ability or speed of which he can read progressions and adjust to defenses post snap. Here's hoping.

Yeah, he simply needs to put in work, study, be coached hard, and put it to the field. I have a feeling he didn’t do as much last offseason and his coaches were quite bad.

Here’s hoping it’s different from here on out ... if it’s not, we’ll be searching again

Case's job is to push/help Baker, but Baker needs the starter reps if we're going to be ready for the regular season. Baker could theoretically lose them if he's practicing poorly, but I don't think this should be an open competition situation. 1st team O needs as much time together as they can get.

The thing about post snap reads is it's a matter of mentally processing information at a very rapid rate. To an extent I believe it's an innate skill that can't actually be taught. I'm sure a vast amount of film study can help to some extent, but it has been an issue that has hampered a lot of very physically gifted QB's.

I agree. It's like being a fast runner. A person can get faster, but a naturally slow person can only improve so much. And a naturally fast person has a much better chance to gain foot speed.

To your post: I will add that the better prepared a QB is for the game plan and the opponent (a problem reportedly for Baker and his direct coaches last year) the "easier" (or quicker) those quick progressions can take place.

Also, what a QB sees pre-snap gives him a better view as to what his options MIGHT be post snap. Another thing that can speed up the progression.

Preparedness and what-you-expect-to-see will make those post-snap progressions much quicker. IMO

Provided OC's aren't hiding what they plan to do post snap with the look they give you presnap. That's the issue.

Seeing how people are lined up presnap is about recognition. Post snap is processing with speed.

It's a lot easier to process post-snap if your offensive players are where you expect them to be.

It's a lot easier to know where to expect them to be if they practice the plays that will be called (and practice period) during the week.

I think that was as much a part of the problem as anything. Having your top two receivers limited with injuries and the QB's familiar reliable outlet and #3 WR benched due to a coach's decision and his top TE out with injury makes knowing what his own guys are doing difficult let alone trying to read defenses under duress.

j/c:

I am going to be interested to see the relationship between Baker and Case. It's been suggested that Case was brought here to be the adult in the room and mentor Baker. That could be correct. But, what if Baker doesn't accept that and views Case as a threat?

I ask that because it sure looked like the relationship between Baker and Taylor was icy. You didn't see them talking on the sidelines. Meanwhile, Drew Stanton and Baker talked all the time after drives.

I don't know if that was on Taylor because he resented Baker taking his job? If it was on Baker because he couldn't believe he wasn't the starter from day one? A combination of both?

It worries me that Baker has this thing about not working w/a qb coach on footwork and throwing the ball. What makes it worse is that he throws around derogatory terms when talking about those guys. I find that type of attitude concerning, especially given that guys who have won Super Bowls are lauded as great qbs will work w/QB coaches during the off-season to help them w/the nuances of the position.

This is almost worthy of a 'Like'...almost...and leaves out the 'Hugh' factor...which is HUGE.



This is complete and utter BS that no one could know or evaluate and makes an agenda-assumption that Baker can't/won't work on what he needs to work on.

No, that isn’t BS. It’s actually from baker himself. Out of his own mouth, or evidence from his actions.

First of all, my remarks were not correctly represented by WSU. I didn't say he wouldn't work. I said he would not work w/a qb coach in the off-season.

Par for the course around here.

Your comments have nothing to do with your opponents disguising their D's and blitzes to confuse NFL QB's. But carry on.....

Just to be clear here...the following is the first sentence in your above paragraph that I had an issue with:

"It worries me that Baker has this thing about not working w/a qb coach on footwork and throwing the ball."

I guess Baker has an agenda.

I find it funny how people thinking pointing out facts is an agenda.

Just to be really clear here:

You came back w/this angry gem:



You took my quote and attached a new meaning to it. Another attempt to start a fight. It's what you always do.

I refuted your agenda post. Interesting how you simply ignored my clarification - now bolded above.

Given that you hate opinions that don't line up with your line of thinking, you stated that I must have no friends and am a miserable person who should go have sex.

I attacked your post...you attacked me personally. Can you not see the difference?

Are you really arguing this? Baker has been quoted as saying he didn't want to work w/a qb coach two years in a row. I never said that he didn't want to work hard. Stop your lies.

I am going back to ignoring you again. It just irks me that the refs allow you and few others to lie. Over and over and over...

I will state again, if you know football, you know it is right about week 8 when DCs have enough tape on you to know your tendencies. Mayfield played 8 weeks in 2018. Opposing DCs had a chance to study him, and they dialed up specific defenses.

That was the biggest reason Mayfield had issues.

I also think this: it was AWFUL luck to play the Jets so early last year ... Gregg knew how to defend Baker: zone defense and jump quick passing lanes, while pressuring up the middle and keeping him in the pocket to the left.

He gave away the blue print. Had we played the Jets, in say, week 15 ... maybe Baker’s year woulda been different

I'd imagine there isn't a direct quote from Baker saying he wouldn't "work with QB guru in the offseason."

I'd imagine a lot of what it's being said negatively from Baker here came from a subjective article about Baker.

People always twist what Baker says. Heck people are twisting what he said about Duke that he's throwing teammates under the bus.

This is what was quoted,

"“I do not need somebody to teach me how to do a three-step drop,” Mayfield said. “I can look at film and be critical of myself. Throughout this process, I have had people help me out along the way and try and take things from different people. Anytime I am around somebody, I ask questions. Do not act like I have it all figured out.

“There is always room to improve and take things from there and there, but I would not say that I will go on the beach and swim through the ocean and try and learn how to play quarterback by doing that.”"

This is what lead people to think Baker said he doesn't want to work with a coach in the offseason. And somehow it's been twisted into Baker being lazy and not wanting to work at all.

Here is what his new OC has said,

"“No disrespect to any of the guys that work with the quarterbacks,’’ Van Pelt said. “They all do a great job, but I would like to consider myself in that area and I’d like to have him do it how we would do it here. So if somebody’s on board with how we do it [fine], but I’d hate to have him go somewhere else and teach him a different set of footwork or drill work.""

Baker isn't unwilling to work with coaches, which seems to be the premise of a lot of posts. If I'm wrong, then I'm sorry I inferred as much as they did.

You don't have to listen to me or believe what I say, however I would recommend not listening to or believing some of these negatively biased opinions, either. Seek out the information yourself. Baker isn't a stubborn know it all. He's quite coachable and he's destined to do great things in this league.

Link

Well said, and thank you.

To clarify some things. Baker did not work w/a qb coach last year. Is anyone disputing that? He made claims about not wanting to work w/qb guru and something about a guy sweeping sand at his feet. I can look up the exact quote if folks are denying that it occurred.

He has said that he wasn't going to work w/one this year. There is the quote about he already knows how to do a three-step drop and once again referred to the ocean. Is anyone going to deny that?

Does anyone think that he will work w/a qb coach this off-season?

Are people denying that other qbs, such as Tom Brady and Peyton Manning haven't worked w/qb coaches in the off-season?

Here is what I said earlier:



Another poster turned that around to me saying he is lazy and not working hard. Then another expounds on it as if it is fact.

I simply think that Baker should work w/a qb coach in the off-season to refine his game. To work on the nuances of the position.

As far as Baker working "hard" in the off-season, I will say that I don't know for sure. Of course, neither do the folks who defend him all the time. I do know that it doesn't seem like he did. There are the quotes about getting away from football and the qb coach thing. He did come in overweight. That picture that was recently posted was very unflattering. There is the quote about thinking it was going to be easy. He's carrying too much flab around the middle. There isn't much evidence of him working out. There was one report from Njoku about the guys meeting and throwing it around. But, that was one day and it later came out that it was more about just getting together. We did not see videos of him throwing to guys last off-season. There was his slurred introduction of the start of the Kentucky Derby, his interviews w/periodicals like GQ and SI. He shotgunning of a beer at the Tribe game. Partying is okay and I am not saying he shouldn't enjoy himself. I'm saying that there isn't much evidence that proves he was working hard. Yet, some people keep telling us what a hard worker he is.

I was happy to see that video of him throwing to Amendola recently. I want to say that I would keep a close eye on what he does this off-season, but this damn virus might make it impossible to even work out this summer.

I tried to find the “thought it would be easy” quote, but didn’t. I said in another thread that I read it as the team thought it would be easy to install the new offense, not that he thought playing in the NFL would be easy.

Also, the Van Pelt quote pretty much says it all for me. They want him working with someone who is on the team. Is that a god or bad thing? I couldn’t tell you.

Well you don't need a broom sweeper teaching you how to post.

For context, you can find the entire article at https://www.beaconjournal.com/sports/201...o-breakout-game

Just to clarify, I don't want that one part of my post to stand alone. I'm hoping that the entire post is taken as one bit of commentary w/different examples. Like threads woven in a tapestry.

Who said that? Bolded now. If I am "another poster", here is what I said...just to clarify:

"...makes an agenda-assumption that Baker can't/won't work on what he needs to work on...."

No where in that comment did I accuse you of saying he was lazy...nor not working hard...whatever that means.

For a guy who likes to claim as 'lies' the differing critique and differences-of-opinion on this board, you sure have a way of making claims that are...well...false. I apologize in advance if I am not the mystery "another poster".



Ok...but that's not what you SAID. See the opening paragraph in this post.

I read the article - and I guess I am a not entirely following what people are taking away from the quote about the game being easy.

He says - They DID NOT think it would be easy.... he says they WANTED it to be easy. He says now they really know it's not going to be easy.

Just me but I wouldn't be reading anything into that quote and exchange to defend or criticize Baker. Just watching the video on the link - the general lack of energy from Freddie, Baker and OBJ to me speaks more about how the team and it's mind set than anything. Just me.

Not quite what I said. And sure, find and post the quote and source that shows Baker said he didn't want to work with a QB guru.

I believe I posted the quote in question. There may be another alluding to it, but I don't think you'll ever find a quote that says he doesn't want to work with a QB guru.

“I already know what exactly I need to work on and improve going forward,” Mayfield said, via the Akron Beacon Journal. “That is the exciting thing about it, it is always a continual process of getting better and improving.”

Mayfield added, however, that he will not hire a private quarterback tutor, as some passers do during the offseason.

“I do not need somebody to teach me how to do a three-step drop,” Mayfield said. “I can look at film and be critical of myself. Throughout this process, I have had people help me out along the way and try and take things from different people. Any time I am around somebody, I ask questions. Do not act like I have it all figured out. There is always room to improve and take things from there and there, but I would not say that I will go on the beach and swim through the ocean and try and learn how to play quarterback by doing that.”

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/20...ith-a-qb-tutor/

I'm with you. The quote doesn't exist, I presume. I believe his exact quote was he "never thought it was going to be easy."