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We also keep coming back to the fact that these numbers are based on positive tests, and we aren't testing anywhere near enough people to draw accurate conclusions or identify trends and tendencies. All we know for certain is that this is serious and a substantial number of people will die from it.


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That's the unknown I keep coming back to. That, and I think COVID-19 is here to stay for a good while.

Meanwhile, my IRA is shedding money, the rate at which, will deplete it by end of the year. An account that took me almost two decades to build. Monday, I have to make some adjustments. My fears and concerns are more than just physical health, but financial as well. This is worrisome on so many levels.

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Ohio locked down....


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So, does that mean no grocery stores/pharmacies?


"First down inside the 10. A score here will put us in the Super Bowl. Jeudy is far to the left as Njoku settles into the slot. Tillman is flanked out wide to the right. Judkins and Ford are split in the backfield as Flacco takes the snap ... Here we go."
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No. Only essential businesses remain open.

Grocery stores and pharmacies considered essential.

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The Hardest Questions Doctors May Face: Who Will Be Saved? Who Won't?

The New York TimesMarch 22, 2020, 11:55 AM EDT

Dr. Lee Daugherty, who was part of a group that researched how to ration care if necessary in a crisis, in a patient room at Johns Hopkins Hospital in Baltimore, Aug. 17, 2016.

Dr. Lee Daugherty, who was part of a group that researched how to ration care if necessary in a crisis, in a patient room at Johns Hopkins Hospital in Baltimore, Aug. 17, 2016.

The medical director of the intensive care unit had to choose which patients’ lives would be supported by ventilators and other equipment. Hurricane Sandy was bearing down on Bellevue Hospital in New York City in 2012, and the main generators were about to fail. Dr. Laura Evans would be left with only six power outlets for the unit’s 50 patients.

Hospital officials asked her to decide which ones would get the lifesaving resources. “Laura,” one official said, “we need a list.” After gathering other professionals, Evans checked off the names of the lucky few.

Now she and doctors at hospitals across the country may have to make similarly wrenching decisions about rationing on a far bigger scale. Epidemic experts predict an explosive growth in the number of critically ill patients, combined with severe shortages of equipment, supplies, staffing and hospital beds in areas of the U.S. where coronavirus infections are surging — hot spots that include New York, California and Washington state.

Health workers are urging efforts to suppress the outbreak and expand medical capacity so that rationing will be unnecessary. But if forced, they ask, how do they make the least terrible decision? How do they minimize deaths? Who even gets to decide, and how are their choices justified to the public?

Medical providers are considering these questions based on what first occurred in China, where many sick patients were initially turned away from hospitals, and now is unfolding in Italy, where overwhelmed doctors are withholding ventilators from older, sicker adults so they can go to younger, healthier patients.

Choosing between patients “goes against the way we used to think about our profession, against the way we think about our behavior with patients,” said Dr. Marco Metra, chief of cardiology at a hospital in one of Italy’s hardest-hit regions.

In the United States, some guidelines already exist for this grim task. In an effort little known even among doctors, federal grant programs helped hospitals, states and the Veterans Health Administration develop what are essentially rationing plans for a severe pandemic. Now those plans, some of which may be outdated, are being revisited for the coronavirus outbreak.

But little research has been done to see whether the strategies would save more lives or years of life compared with a random lottery to assign ventilators or critical care beds — an option some support to avoid bias against people with disabilities and others.

Some commonly recommended rationing strategies, researchers found, could paradoxically increase the number of deaths. And protocols involve value judgments as much as medical ones and have to take into account the public’s trust.

If hospitals withhold treatment by age, where do they draw the line? If they give lower priority to those with certain underlying health conditions, they may in effect be offering black Americans less treatment than white Americans. If physicians try to redirect resources — putting a patient on a ventilator for a few days, then giving it to someone else who appears to have better prospects — more people may die because few would get adequate treatment. And if many patients have a similar chance of survival, what fair way is there to make a choice?

The federal government — so far, at least — is not providing national rationing guidelines for the coronavirus outbreak. Officials from various states, medical associations and hospitals are discussing their own plans, potentially resulting in very different decisions on life-and-death matters about which there are deep disagreements, even among medical professionals.

“You have to be really clear about what you are trying to achieve,” said Christina Pagel, a British researcher who studied the problem during the 2009 H1N1 flu pandemic. “Maybe you end up saving more people, but at the end you have got a society at war with itself. Some people are going to be told they don’t matter enough.”

‘The Most Good’

Just before the coronavirus outbreak, Evans, the physician at Bellevue, moved across the country to direct the intensive care unit at the University of Washington Medical Center in Seattle. The city became one of the first areas in the United States to see community spread of the virus.

The hospital is doing whatever it can to prevent the need to ration — what Evans referred to as “an ethical obligation.” Like other institutions, it is trying to increase supplies, training staff to act in roles that may be outside their usual jobs and postponing elective surgeries to free up space for coronavirus patients. Some cities are racing to construct new hospitals.

Strategies to avoid rationing during the pandemic were published by the National Academy of Medicine. But hospitals across the country vary in their adherence to such steps. At the University of Miami’s flagship hospital, surgeons were told last Monday to cancel elective surgeries, but across the street at Jackson Memorial Hospital, they were “given wide discretion over whether to cancel or proceed,” according to an update sent to physicians.

Evans is working with health leaders in Washington state to figure out how to implement triage plans. Their goal, she said, would be “doing the most good for the most people and being fair and equitable and transparent in the process.”

But guidance endorsed and distributed by the Washington State Health Department last week suggested that triage teams under crisis conditions should consider transferring patients out of the hospital or to palliative care if their baseline functioning was marked by “loss of reserves in energy, physical ability, cognition and general health.”

The concept of triage stems from Napoleon’s battlefields. The French military leader’s chief surgeon, Baron Dominique Jean Larrey, concluded that medics should attend to the most dangerously wounded first, without regard to rank or distinction. Later, doctors added other criteria to mass-casualty triage, including how likely someone was to survive treatment or how long it would take to care for them.

Protocols for rationing critical care and ventilators in a pandemic had their beginning during the anthrax mailings after the Sept. 11 attacks but have not previously been implemented.

Dr. Frederick Burkle, a former Vietnam War physician, laid out ideas for how to handle the victims of a large-scale bioterrorist event. After the SARS outbreak stressed Toronto hospitals in 2003, some of his ideas were proposed by Canadian doctors, and they made their way into many American plans after the H1N1 pandemic in 2009. “I have said to my wife, ‘I think I developed a monster here,’” Burkle said in an interview.

What worried him was that the protocols often had rigid exclusion criteria for ventilators or even hospital admission. Some used age as a cutoff or preexisting conditions like advanced cancer, kidney failure or severe neurological impairment. Burkle, though, had emphasized the importance of reassessing the level of resources sometimes on a daily or hourly basis in an effort to minimize the need to deny care.

Also, the plans might not achieve their goals of maximizing survival. For example, most called for reassigning a ventilator after several days if a patient was not improving, allowing it to be allocated to a different patient.

But rapidly cycling ventilators might not give anyone enough chance to improve. When the coronavirus causes severe pneumonia, doctors are finding that patients require treatment for weeks.

In Canada, a study of H1N1 patients found that 70% of those who would have been withdrawn from ventilators after a five-day time trial if a rationing plan had been implemented actually survived with continued care.

Researchers at a British hospital had similar findings, concluding that “a new model of triage needs to be developed.”

A Score Card and a Lottery

Many of the original plans in the U.S. were developed exclusively by medical personnel. But in Seattle, public health officials gathered community input on a possible plan more than a decade ago.

Some citizens feared that using predicted survival to determine access to resources — a common strategy — might be inherently discriminatory, according to a report on the exercise. Citing “institutional racism in the health care system,” they were concerned that the metrics for some groups, like African Americans and immigrants, would be skewed because they had not received the same quality of care.

There were similar findings in Maryland, where researchers at Johns Hopkins engaged residents across the state in deliberations over several years.

The researchers presented them with several options. Hospitals could assign ventilators on a first-come, first-served basis. Some thought that could disadvantage people who lived far from hospitals. A lottery struck other participants as more fair.

Others argued for a more outcome-oriented approach. One goal could be saving the highest number of lives, regardless of factors like age. A different goal could be saving the most years of life, a strategy favoring younger, healthier patients. Participants also considered whether those playing a valuable role in a pandemic, like medical workers who risked their lives, should be made a priority.

After the project ended, the Hopkins researchers designed a framework that assigns scores to patients based on estimated probability of short- and long-term survival. The latter was defined by whether the person had a pre-existing life expectancy of at least a year. Ventilators would be provided, as available, according to their ranking. The framework recommends a lottery for lifesaving resources when patients have identical scores. Stage of life may also be used as a “tiebreaker.” Decisions should be made by designated triage officers, not individual doctors caring for patients, and there should be a limited appeals process in cases of resource withdrawal, the protocol said.

The public input led the Hopkins researchers not to incorporate most exclusion criteria.

Dr. Lee Daugherty Biddison, one of the effort’s leaders, said that was because most participants were uncomfortable excluding patients with underlying health issues. Preconditions don’t always predict survival from respiratory viruses, and having chronic diseases like diabetes, kidney failure and high blood pressure often tracks with access to medical care. Rationing based on these conditions would be “essentially punishing people for their station in life,” Biddison said.

The Hopkins group published a description of the framework last year, and doctors from other Maryland hospitals are teleconferencing twice a day to prepare to implement the plan if conditions grow extreme. Biddison has also been sharing the recommendations with doctors across the country.

In Pennsylvania, Dr. Douglas White, chairman of ethics in critical care medicine at the University of Pittsburgh School of Medicine, is using the Hopkins protocol to help prepare hospitals in his state.

In Colorado, Dr. Matthew Wynia, a bioethicist and infectious disease doctor, is working on a plan that would also assign a score. In his rubric, the first considerations are odds of survival and expected length of treatment. He said there was wide agreement among planners “not to make decisions on perceived social worth, race, ethnic background and long-term disability status,” which some fear could happen if doctors had to make seat-of-the-pants judgments without guidelines.

He is also trying to ensure that patients on admission to Colorado hospitals are asked whether they would forgo a ventilator if there were not enough for everyone. “One thing everyone agrees on is that the most morally defensible way to decide would be to ask the patients,” Wynia said.

He supports the idea of reassigning ventilators in certain cases. “If things are clearly getting worse, it’s really hard to justify a stance of once you’re on a vent, you own it, no matter how many people have to die in the meantime,” Wynia said.

Unlike in Italy, where age has been used in rationing treatment, some people developing protocols elsewhere have de-emphasized it. “There are arguments about valuing the young over the old that I am personally very uncomfortable with,” Pagel, the British researcher, said, including that young people should be a higher priority because they have more life ahead of them.

“Where is your threshold? Is a 20-year-old really more valuable than a 50-year-old, or are 50-year-olds actually more useful for your economy because they have experience and skills that 20-year-olds don’t have?”

A Right to Know

As Hurricane Sandy intensified outside Bellevue in 2012, Evans referred to New York state guidelines, since updated — which some hospital leaders have said they will follow if overwhelmed by the coronavirus — on how to allocate ventilators in a pandemic using a scoring system that tries to estimate someone’s chance of survival. She pulled together an ad hoc committee of doctors, ethicists and nurses. “Having a system and procedures gave us a sense we had some control of the situation,” she recalled.

For those about to lose electricity, she and her colleagues stationed two staff members at the bedside of all patients who relied on ventilators, preparing to manually squeeze oxygen into their lungs with flexible Ambu bags.

Looking back, Evans feels the patients and their families had the right to know that their machines would lose power, but in the crisis they hadn’t been told. The doctors also did not think to ask whether any patients or their families might volunteer to give up a power outlet so that it could be provided to someone else. “It wasn’t even on my radar,” Evans said.

In the end, it was improvisation that prevented tragic rationing at Bellevue. The generator fuel pumps failed, but a chain of volunteers hand-carried diesel up 13 flights of stairs. Evans’ patients were all maintained on backup power until they were transferred to other hospitals.

“I remember it really vividly,” she said of the experience. “It’s going to stay with me my entire professional career.”

This article originally appeared in The New York Times.

https://news.yahoo.com/hardest-questions-doctors-may-face-155539987.html





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Thanks


"First down inside the 10. A score here will put us in the Super Bowl. Jeudy is far to the left as Njoku settles into the slot. Tillman is flanked out wide to the right. Judkins and Ford are split in the backfield as Flacco takes the snap ... Here we go."
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Anybody had any luck finding 9mm ammo? I have a little bit but I could use a few more rounds.

All the stores around here are sold out and I've been looking online and haven't had any luck finding any.

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Originally Posted By: Psydeffect
Anybody had any luck finding 9mm ammo? I have a little bit but I could use a few more rounds.

All the stores around here are sold out and I've been looking online and haven't had any luck finding any.


Have you tried Cabelas?

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A few days ago, in what I took as a lighthearted comment, my son said he told his brothers (convoluted situation: he has 4 half brothers. He calls them, and they call him, brother, which is cool)....but, he said he told them if crap gets bad, we're all going to my dad's house. He lives in the country and he'll have enough food, guns and ammo for all of us.

When he told me that, I laughed. And then I thought. Yup, you're right.

I don't see it coming to that, even in cities. There a scammers, or would be scammers at work right now, I know. But this will not turn into some war scenario.

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My family and I were talking about the virus today. Our general opinion is that we don't need to overstock ammo and buy more guns for home protection.

We did discuss buying more ammo to go into the woods and shoot wild boar and other game to help us w/food if things get really bad.

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Originally Posted By: archbolddawg
Originally Posted By: Psydeffect
Anybody had any luck finding 9mm ammo? I have a little bit but I could use a few more rounds.

All the stores around here are sold out and I've been looking online and haven't had any luck finding any.


Have you tried Cabelas?


Yep, it's gone. I checked online also, unless they have restocked since I looked.

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So tonight after not leaving the house for the last nine days, my wife has a low grade fever. Can't even express the feeling I had when she told me that. Hope it's nothing but now we both get to worry about it until we know.

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My best wishes for your wife and family.

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Dallas sheltered in place today. If you know anything about Texas, you know that’s a big deal.

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Well CoVid-19 is not the only thing out there right now and there are many reasons to run a low grade fever, but the intensity of the moment lends a certain amount of angst to the situation that's for sure.

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Praying it's just a cold


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Yeah, that sucks. It's allergy season here.........and some of us are feverish, have body pains, and are sneezing/coughing like crazy. We say "well, it is allergy season," but in the recesses of our minds, we wonder...

Best of luck, my man.

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Waiting for Houston to do that... they've already closed most public places.... shelter in place is next logical step...


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Originally Posted By: Psydeffect
Anybody had any luck finding 9mm ammo? I have a little bit but I could use a few more rounds.

All the stores around here are sold out and I've been looking online and haven't had any luck finding any.


Great Lakes Outdoor Supply is out, nada, nein on 9mm.

Prob could order it online below....

https://www.cabelas.com/category/Handgun-Ammunition/104372280.uts?&CQ_ref=~caliber-9%2Bmm&CQ_ztype=GNU





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Originally Posted By: Psydeffect
Anybody had any luck finding 9mm ammo? I have a little bit but I could use a few more rounds.

All the stores around here are sold out and I've been looking online and haven't had any luck finding any.


Go to your local range. A lot of ranges are not selling to the public, but they will sell to people who use the range. So use the range to as an excuse to buy ammo.


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Originally Posted By: OldColdDawg
So tonight after not leaving the house for the last nine days, my wife has a low grade fever. Can't even express the feeling I had when she told me that. Hope it's nothing but now we both get to worry about it until we know.


I understand your concern. Praying for her (and you).


And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul.
- John Muir

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Originally Posted By: Psydeffect
Anybody had any luck finding 9mm ammo? I have a little bit but I could use a few more rounds.

All the stores around here are sold out and I've been looking online and haven't had any luck finding any.


https://www.freedommunitions.com/ammunition/pistol.html


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Originally Posted By: OldColdDawg
Well CoVid-19 is not the only thing out there right now and there are many reasons to run a low grade fever, but the intensity of the moment lends a certain amount of angst to the situation that's for sure.


I pray that she will be fine, and that this is just a mild cold, or something.


Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.

John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Originally Posted By: Tulsa
Originally Posted By: Psydeffect
Anybody had any luck finding 9mm ammo? I have a little bit but I could use a few more rounds.

All the stores around here are sold out and I've been looking online and haven't had any luck finding any.


https://www.freedommunitions.com/ammunition/pistol.html



Sold out, thanks though

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Originally Posted By: OldColdDawg
So tonight after not leaving the house for the last nine days, my wife has a low grade fever. Can't even express the feeling I had when she told me that. Hope it's nothing but now we both get to worry about it until we know.


Sorry OCD, if she has any of the pre-existing conditions that diminish the immune system that this thing likes to attack, i would watch this for a week to two.

I was watching an interview with a doctor today and in some people this thing seems to start off as a runny nose-then a dry cough, not a lot of mucous, then goes to the low fever. And then in many it seems to just nag and over time start to get better and diminish. In some however, after the cough and fever start, it goes right for the lungs and you have trouble breathing and then the muscle pain and then the lungs get worse, and worse, and worse

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Originally Posted By: OldColdDawg
So tonight after not leaving the house for the last nine days, my wife has a low grade fever. Can't even express the feeling I had when she told me that. Hope it's nothing but now we both get to worry about it until we know.


Best to your fam.


"too many notes, not enough music-"

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Originally Posted By: bluecollarball
That's the unknown I keep coming back to. That, and I think COVID-19 is here to stay for a good while.

Meanwhile, my IRA is shedding money, the rate at which, will deplete it by end of the year. An account that took me almost two decades to build. Monday, I have to make some adjustments. My fears and concerns are more than just physical health, but financial as well. This is worrisome on so many levels.


I was worried about that and I'm not even looking at this point. I'm nowhere near retirement age but have a pretty good amount saved in 401K. My first instinct was to drop contributions but everywhere I looked they say that's wrong. It depends on what you want to do but I found this article interesting.

https://money.com/stock-market-401k-contribution-rate/

If You Can, Increase Your 401(k) Contributions Right Now
RETIREMENT 401(K)S

BY CHRIS TAYLOR MARCH 20, 2020


One of the most challenging things about extreme stock-market turmoil is that there are no absolute answers, which are right for every investor.

What a 60-year-old near-retiree should do with their money, in terms of asset allocation and short-term needs, is very different from the strategy of a 30-year-old with decades to go before retirement.

When it comes to regular retirement plan contributions, though, there is one notion in tough times which is appropriate in almost all cases: If you are financially able, you should try to boost your savings percentage.

It may seem counterintuitive, in a moment when many investors seem to be running as far away from the stock market as they can. And if you are suffering from job loss or slashed work hours, it may not be possible.

But seen though a long-term lens, the idea of doubling down on new contributions during a nasty market slump is as close to a lock as you’re going to get.


“There are a few key levers available to accomplish a retirement goal, but the only one people can affect now is how much they’re saving,” says David Blanchett, head of retirement research for the Investment Management group at Chicago-based research firm Morningstar. “We don’t control the performance of the markets – but we do control how much we save.”

Cranking up contributions in dark times is a supercharged version of dollar-cost averaging, basically. If your fixed 401(k) contribution automatically buys fewer shares of a fund where the market is pricey, and more when the market is on sale, then you’re essentially loading up from the bargain bin.

It’s not just theoretical: Not that long ago, in the financial crisis of 2008-9, the stock market was cratering and the world seemed to be on fire (sound familiar?). Those who increased contributions in that frightening moment, were paid off handsomely in years that followed.

“Many people were really scared by what was happening in 2008-9, but we had many clients who took the opposite tactic,” says Nate Wenner, a financial planner in Edina, Minn. “They decided to take advantage of lower prices, and invest a higher percentage of their income.

“Those strategies paid off bigtime over the subsequent decade. Many people’s retirement plans were largely built on that recovery and growth of the markets. And now here we are again.”

To find out just how much impact that strategy has, we turned to Morningstar’s Blanchett. Since we’re looking for an analogous moment, the Dow Jones Industrial Average peaked in late October of 2007, and had fallen by a quarter by October of 2008. For the sake of argument, we’re assuming an annual salary of $80,000 and an allocation split of 90% equities and 10% bonds.

If on Oct. 1, 2008 that investor decided to boost 401(k) contributions from the 3% default level to 6% — amounting to about $100 per paycheck — the long-term impact would have been very powerful indeed. Through this March 17, a 3% savings rate would have added up to a $45,252 balance (not including any previous balances), while a 6% rate would mean $90,505.

Some of that total is due to initial contributions, and some of it to subsequent growth in stock-market values. Now project those totals forward: Even if you never contributed again, assuming 7% annual compounded growth for 20 years, you’re looking at $200,631 versus $350,226.

Hindsight regarding the financial crisis is 20/20, of course, and no one can say for sure where the market is going from here. But following Warren Buffett’s famous precept – to be fearful when others are greedy, and greedy when others are fearful – you would be wise to boost 401(k) contributions, if you can, at the precise moment when everyone else is running around in a panic. Like, say, now.


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yes, if you have many years until retirement,stay with it-it will come back some day-
shares are cheap now-dollar cost average

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Said a prayer OCD.

Last weekend my bride of 36 years couldn't barely talk. Bad sore throat, cough, etc. BAD!!!

I was super worried.

2-3 days later, thumbsup

Imo there's something else out there so.....





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My wife had what we thought was a cold, about 12 days ago. It turned into her losing her voice, which, honestly, I was okay with.

She started to get better, but a couple of days ago she got worse. She's now back to being better, but not 'right'.

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I don't see a war type situation, either, but I do anticipate an increase in crime, and I expect anxious and panicked people to do rash things.

As for ammo, I was looking at about a dozen different sites last night.... all the ones that I would consider the bigger online retailers. Pretty much nobody has anything. I checked everything caliber I own, and there was nothing. Not even 45-70, which is just nuts. Everyone is completely bought out.


Browns is the Browns

... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.

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Well, as I said, I don't see a war type scenario. And, in light of this being social media, I don't see a need to say what I have as far as ammo. If push comes to shove, I suppose I could use some more .40 cal, and ideally shotgun slugs, as well as 38 cal (I would hate using that gun, as it's in pristine condition and its value since I bought it has gone up close to 5 fold)

Otherwise, with .22, 9, .223, 7.62X39, I feel I'm fine.

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Originally Posted By: PrplPplEater
I don't see a war type situation, either, but I do anticipate an increase in crime, and I expect anxious and panicked people to do rash things.

As for ammo, I was looking at about a dozen different sites last night.... all the ones that I would consider the bigger online retailers. Pretty much nobody has anything. I checked everything caliber I own, and there was nothing. Not even 45-70, which is just nuts. Everyone is completely bought out.


Yep, the sh... is about to hit the fan. I'm ready, Middletown is already bad with crime....add this in and it gets a bit scary. Heroin and Meth addicts are already out of control. I'm serioulsy worried about my house getting broken into, my anxiety is at an all time high.

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Thanks everyone for the well wishes.

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Originally Posted By: archbolddawg
My wife had what we thought was a cold, about 12 days ago. It turned into her losing her voice, which, honestly, I was okay with.

She started to get better, but a couple of days ago she got worse. She's now back to being better, but not 'right'.


My wife could barely talk as well. At times couldn't speak at all/losing her voice. AT ALL! She was bad.......I'm thinkin...."here we go"!!!

She came home Fri after work bad. Sick Fri, Sat & Sun. Went to work Mon feelin "Ok". Not back to "pretty good" till Tues/Wed, 5-6 days later.

Both losing voices???? Prob had the same thing.





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Hoping for the best for you and her buddy


"First down inside the 10. A score here will put us in the Super Bowl. Jeudy is far to the left as Njoku settles into the slot. Tillman is flanked out wide to the right. Judkins and Ford are split in the backfield as Flacco takes the snap ... Here we go."
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UPDATE: All clear. Apparently it was nothing more than being worn out because it broke within half an hour of her laying down and she is fine this morning. I'll be glad when this crap passes.

Thanks again for all the well wishes.

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