DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum NFL's Offensive Line Struggles

Awesome post. I love to see football posts like this one. I want to leave a lot to others, but will just make a few comments for now and then add more later........hopefully people are interested.

--The wide stance thing? I would like to hear more about that. I like the athletic stance, but there may be something to it.

--The hand in the ground thing. I agree totally. Putting too much weight on that hand is a huge liability. We used to teach our linemen to rest their forearms on their thighs when they first got in their stance to ensure they had proper balance. Then, they would lower their hand to the turf. Putting the hand down first is bad technique and I am really glad you brought that up. It's one of the nuances of the good OL play.

--Long strides and crossing your feet. Yep, both are killers for offensive linemen. Keep your feet underneath you at all times. Don't lean back, don't lunge, don't get off balance. This is huge!

--Shorter QBs. I hope this doesn't derail things, but sometimes shorter qbs who played in spread offenses tend to drift too deep when dropping back. They are actually puttin themselves in the path of where an OT wants to "steer" his guy.

Good post and I hope to hear more from you..........and others.

Choppy feet aid in your drive when run blocking. They aid in recovery if you get knocked back and they aid in your recovery if you fall down. They teach that on o-line, defense and even the offensive skill positions. RB's are taught to chop feet if they are waiting for a whole to open. WR's are taught to chop feet before a sharp cut. Watch even a midget league team warming up and you'll see those choppy feet in up/down drills, change direction drills, fumble drills, etc... It's a basic fundamental for a reason.

About the too much weight on one hand thing...

Playing MLB in Jr High, I learned to look at the guard's knuckles and if they were white, he was putting weight on that hand and it was probably a running play and if not, he was probably pass blocking. Just like tab was telling his guard to focus on my inside shoulder, my coach was telling me to look at his guy's knuckles. I would also look at his eyes, because guards have a lot of 2nd level blocks and can't help but stare a little too long at the guy they are going after. You also look down the whole line for a guy leaning toward a block or staring at it. Also guys that have to pull will often open up the foot in the direction they are pulling in their stance. The play gets a lot easier when before the snap you know it's a run to the right and the right guard is the guy that's going to block you.

The chess game before the play, is as exciting as the play itself sometimes.

Another great post. I really wish we could get more stuff like this in this forum.

Agreed. In high school, with our very limited film review, their were often times that I could, and did, call out the play the offense was going to run. We ran a 5-3. I would, when I knew, tell the d. tackle on my side "Mike, their gonna run the ball on your outside gap." Or, my favorite: Looked at the o set up, and I screamed it out: Halfback pass, halfback pass.

Sure enough, they ran a halfback pass. Although the halfback was crushed before he could make the pass.

Yes, being able to watch video, learn, remember....taking cues, etc. especially, or maybe even more so at a h.s. level, is invaluable. I say at a h.s. level because, we're talking nfl here, and everyone knows the shows, and that's why there's so much motion, switching, etc. It is 100 times more complicated at the nfl level, no doubt.

Definitely more complex. But, it's important to study. Tendencies, down and distance, time on the clock, field position, playing from ahead or behind, etc.

Teams have tendencies. Smart people can figure them out and prey on them.

We had watched two short yardage plays on video that this team ran at least once every game. Their biggest guy (a d-lineman) would report in as eligible on offense and line up as a WR just outside the TE. He would go into motion before the snap.

In one variation, they would snap the ball after he passed the Center and he would follow the guard and block the first guy he came to and usually knocked him off his feet. The QB would hand the football to the FB who would just follow the big guy.

In the other variation, it looked almost identical, but they would snap the ball before he got to Center. The QB would fake to the FB and flip the ball to the big guy who would then follow the FB.

The FB was a slobber knocker too and I knew that one of those big guys was coming right at me followed by the other one with the ball. Then I noticed that the Center was actually blocking down on the the play and leaving the middle wide open.

I decided that if that big guy was coming in for the play, that I was going to shoot the middle and hope to get past whichever big guy was blocking for a chance at a tackle behind the line.

As luck would have it, it was the second version of the play and the QB flipped the ball a little early and a little weak. I had shot the middle so early that the QB flipped that ball right to me and big guy was big, but big guy was not that fast.

The only guy that had a chance to stop me from getting 6 points was the QB and he failed.

Needless to say, I wasn't thinking about getting a turnover before the play but scouting that play out, put me in the right position to do so.

Good stuff DeputyDawg

Yes, sir, The chopping of the feet (continual movement) aids one in balance.

And as a DL rushing the passer, when your feet stop moving ... you become neutralized, and easily blocked.

When your on the OL ... you get beat! ... when you forget to move your feet. *L*

LOL.............good story. I only laugh because the opponent's coaches were stupid. Kudos to you, though.

I have a similar story. I was a RB on O and a Monster back on D. That was back in the day and it's basically a strong safety who has more LBer responsibilities. I had the speed for corner, but I wasn't all that good at trailing guys. My best position on D was probably FS, but back in the '70s, teams ran the ball more and I was really physical.

We were gearing up to play one of our rivals and they ran a Veer-Option offense. They put up some big numbers and had a good coaching staff. Their QB was fast and gifted. But, so was I. We were watching game tape leading up to the game and I noticed the dude really didn't like being hit. I go to my position coach after the film study and ask him if I can just destroy the QB every freaking time they run the option to the field side. He thinks about it and says....give it a try and we'll see how it goes. Dep, I killed this guy no matter what. Went for his ribs each and every time. Picked him up and buried him. By the end of the second quarter, he started to flinch. He ended up putting the ball on the ground multiple times w/bad pitches, quick pitches, scared ass pitches. If he were a millennial, he would have been looking for a safe space.

I earned some respect that game from my coaches. I got hired as an assistant coach there after my college days were over and I wasn't good enough for the NFL.

I wish I knew how to post a video of how to properly execute some of these moves, such as chopping the feet, hand placement, chest over thighs, leverage, etc. I would not want to show my face, though. The Joe T videos are probably our best bet.

Ah! A fellow former monster back

Voted most likely to join the Marines from classmates that had to practice against me.

They where prophets...

Awesome. Monster backs unite!!!

Tough dudes played that position. And then there was me. LOL, just kidding. I used to like to bring the pain.

When I was a kid, and Tom Landry coached the Cowboys, their OL did a move that seemed designed to draw an offsides. Everyone on the line, would be in a 2 point stance, forearms on their thighs, then as a unit, raise upright, then move into a 3 point stance. It would often draw an offsides, or would change the DL timing. I have not seen that done by anyone since Landry was forced out by Jones. I guess my question is, is the move still legal, or is it just not done anymore due to the limited time ( 40 seconds ) to get a play off ?

No pain no gain ... although it hurts just saying that today

My god I remember them doing that.
When I was a little kid in the 70s, Dallas was my team, but I remember it as the D doing it, and not the O. Could be wrong though.

Flex, they called it?

I really don't know the answer to that question. But, it's a good one.

Here is my theory, but I could be way off base.

1. Landry was a disciplinarian. He liked order. He liked uniformity. I suspect that their movements were part of his idea of things being done in an orderly and systematic manner.

2. I think the knew that good balance was a key to solid OL play and that getting set before you put your hand down was smart. That is why our team did it when I was coaching.

3. I do think he would catch some teams jumping off-sides at times, but that was more announcer talk than reality. I am not dismissing it, but I think it trails the other two factors.

It was the OL. D-line would be dumb to do that.

Wouldn't the wider stance hurt your mobility/agility? Do interior linemen have dramatically different stance than the tackles?

I think being too wide or too narrow in your stance invites problems. I'm wondering if tab is talking about how many of today's NFL OTs have a staggered stance to help them open up quicker against speedy Edge rushers?

I played a little Monster too. That was quite a fun position to play. I played pretty much everything on defense. I played everything on the o-line except for center. I played wing-back and tailback and even as an emergency QB for part of a game.

In midget league, I played MLB on a pretty stacked defense and the coach would let me call the plays. I would line myself up at NT on some plays and dropped back to a third safety on others. We only gave up 7 points the entire season, but lost 2 games. That second game we lost to a safety and that is also the game I was emergency QB. The other defense was pretty awesome too and took out our first 3 QB's before they were desperate enough to put me back there. It wasn't any prettier with me in there and I got a fine appreciation for the hits that QB's take.

My favorite position to play by far though, was head hunter on special teams. You had to take some big blindside hits sometimes, but when you got a clear path to the ball carrier, you could really inflict the punishment.

My favorite weather to play in was those cold rainy days where the field was good and sloppy. On defense you knew that they would mostly run and that RB would have a difficult time making sharp cuts. When they did pass, that WR was gonna have to try and catch a slick ball with cold hands and would be concentrating on making that catch more than where you were at.

Okay, I have derailed the thread enough. Back to o-line.

I played o-line up to my Junior year at 135 lbs. When I was younger, I played it at 90 lbs. I went to Army Basic training between my Junior and Senior year and gained 30 lbs, but even then was playing o-line at a buck 65. I was a pretty good wrestler and until my Senior year tried to keep my weight down. My favorite guys to block were the big bull rushers. They took a look at me and thought they were going to have a field day running me over on their way to the ball.

Low man wins--- That big guy is licking his chops on the first play. He's thinking about knocking me on my can. He's most likely gonna try to put a paw on each shoulder pad to steer me around. That's good for me because while those hands are coming up and out I'm thinking about blocking his belly button! I'm getting under those hands and under his shoulder pads. If I can get under his pads and pop him up, I don't care how big he is, he is already off balance. I can take him left or right.

Low man wins with hand placement too--- Okay lets say that guy doesn't make it easy on me and tries for good hand placement. My arms are lower and I'm staying low while knocking those hands up. If I do it right, his hands are going to go over top my shoulders and I'll have free access to get under those pads.

Choppy feet--- I'm not going to waste the good position that I just got. My feet are moving faster and those quick, choppy steps are pushing him inches more off balance with extra step that I take to his. It's now my whole body verses his upper body and he is off balance.

Use his motion against him---This is kind of hard to explain, but you have to feel what the defensive player wants to do. First, if you are blocking a man directly in front of you, you know what the play is, but you can't start off thinking that you are going to block your guy the direction in the playbook. If you start like that, and your opponent happens to be stunting in a direction you weren't expecting, you'll find yourself out of position. Your first step in blocking a square up man is a square up block, then you need to feel what your opponent wants to do. If he seems focused on going to the right when you were going to take him to the left, that's fine. Take him there laterally and don't allow penetration. This is same even if you are creating the initial hole for the run. Your job isn't to push him left or push him right. Your job is to keep him from filling that hole. If he wants to go right I'll take him right and try to drive him right into one of his teammates. I'm blocking him and he's helping to block a teammate.

Now, if you are blocking a guy that is lined up offset to you, the same principle applies with one caveat. You have to get your head between that man and the hole. Let's say he is offset left and you really want to block him to the right. Get your head on the left side and if he wants to go right and help you great! Keep engaged and rotate your hips as he moves right don't allow him to penetrate and move him laterally. If he's offset left and wants to move left, force him to square up with you by controlling that inside shoulder. Do not let him lock you out of the block with that left arm! If he does, you lose! Push that arm up and away and put that helmet right in his chest. Once engaged the only way you are going to be able to go is left but keep driving him backward.

If you are blocking a second level guy, he will most likely be in a different spot after the ball is snapped. If he is moving toward you, take him square on and treat him like he was lined up directly over you. If he is moving both away from you and away from the play, block the next closest unblocked guy. If he is moving away from you and toward the play, chase him all the way to the sideline if you have to. Any time you have to block a moving target, watch his hips. Not only will his hips tell you where he is going, but it will help keep you lower when you finally engage.

Pulling is technique too--- If you are a pulling lineman, you are taking that first step a split second after your hand comes off the ground. It doesn't matter which foot is forward in your stance, if you are pulling left, the first step is made with your left foot, and it's made with the right foot if you are pulling right. That pull side foot is rotated to be parallel with the line of scrimmage and at the same you are driving off of the side of your other foot. The second step is a pivot to bring that other foot around so that both feet are parallel to the line of scrimmage. When that second foot comes around slightly in front of the first, you are still quite low but but your feet are slightly narrower than your initial stance. Not much narrower, but more like the width a sprinter would have. You need to treat this like a sprint and stay low the entire time. When you turn to go up-field, you should drive off of the side of the foot farthest from the line of scrimmage instead of trying to round the turn. You should be looking for your block as soon as you make the turn and should still be low in your stance. Your feet should widen about 3 steps before you get to target.

This is just a tiny amount of the technique for o-lineman, and I'll add some more when I think of it and find time.

Awesome post. I love true football posts instead of the crap that dominates this forum.

I am going to let your post stand alone for just a bit and then comment on some of the things you said. I agree w/most of it and I have a different mind-set on a couple of things. That's not to say that either of us is right or wrong. There are different philosophies out there and it's cool to look at all of them.

Thanks for typing all of that out. It was a very enjoyable read. I really wanna dive into your post now, but I want people to digest it before I speak to it. It's worth being considered all by itself.

Nicely done! I like reading about the technical side, because I’m pretty ignorant to it.

Your points about choppy feet and pulling will be important for our OL with this new system. IMO, it’s the toughest system to defend IF the OL is capable

This is very true. We saw it in one of the Joe T videos and we talked about it a little bit earlier in the thread. I think most people understand the concept. I just wanted to bring up Dep's point again. Another thing about the "low man wins" comment is that it is important to fire out of your stance. You stay low, like your running out of a tunnel and explode into the man you are blocking. A lot of players want to stand up first, then attack. We used to call it "coming out of a chute." The key is to hit him before he gets his hands on you. This leads to other things Dep mentioned, such as hand placement and chopping w/your feet. Balance is key, but so is tenacity.




We taught pulling a little differently. Folks, this is one you can actually try at home. It helps you get a feel for the process. So, let's say you are going to pull to the right for our particular example. You are in your stance, and while staying low, throw your right elbow back at about hip level and at the same time your right foot is opening up/pivoting so that your toes end up parallel to the LOS and your right foot is perpendicular and even w/your left foot. We used this technique to get some depth for our pulling linemen. We didn't want them to get tangled in traffic. Bad things can happen if another lineman gets pushed back. Thus, a little depth can be very helpful.

One other thing I want to mention is that Dep did mention leading w/the foot in the direction you are going. That might sound a little weird, but it's true in so many instances of good OL play. We used to do a lot of gap--or angle--blocking in our ZBS. That is where you travel on a 45 degree path and block the man who is either shading you, the next man down, or the first guy to cross your space. Those three things are related to defensive alignments, stunts, blitzes, etc. Anyway, let's say you are playing LG and you have a DT or NT who is shading to your right and is aligned between you and the Center. Like Dep said, lead w/your right foot [in this particular situation] and turn that foot so you are going to move at a 45 degree angle. Stay low. Aim your face mask for his opposite arm pit. Bury it in there while punching and holding onto to the bottom of his far side of his shoulder pad. Joe demonstrated this in one of the videos. This creates a lock and your hands are inside, so they won't call holding. Your back arm is like a chicken wing. You want that elbow up and out so the guy doesn't spin out of your grasp. You then drive and chop, chop, chop. If the hole is behind you, simply keep driving him to your right. If the hole is in front of you, turn him by putting a lot of force on his outside shoulder.

Maybe it sounded different the way I wrote it, but that is the same process. We even had the elbow back toward the hip, even though I didn't mention it. The only difference may be where you guys went totally perpendicular to the left foot (did that before in midget league) our coach had us imagining a spot behind our butts for that first step. And yes, that depth you get behind the line is huge! Most pulling lineman are watching for their fellow lineman's feet more than anything when pulling.

Which made me think of a funny story. Thankfully this only happened in practice. We were down a couple of guards one week and since I knew how to play guard, I was moved over from tackle to guard. I picked it back up pretty quick. Offenses are kept simple for a reason. You pull right on even numbered plays and left on odd numbered plays.

Simple right? Well there is one exception to that. If the play is a reverse you pull in the opposite direction. I forgot this in practice and when I was pulling right, the RG was pulling left. Both of us smacked helmets right behind the Center because we were both barely out of our first steps and both making sure we cleared the centers feet. It knocked both of us on our cans and neither of us saw the other coming. My first words were "No, it was an 88... Oh damn!" The smack was loud enough that the cross country runners running at the back of the school property knew about my mistake.

Coach didn't call any reverses that next game.

Dang man! I just tried that and pinched a nerve in my lower back.

Thanks a lot!

Well, this thread isn't as popular as those who are centered around bickering and insulting, but I'll try yet again to talk some football.

These are just my opinions and not all who know OL play will agree. But, I will try and talk about what I think are some important attributes of each individual position along the OL. Different schemes obviously change things and some players transcend things, but this is just a general look at the individual positions for those interested in learning more about OL play and/or how to evaluate possible draft picks and guys on our roster.

I am going to list them by importance. Of course, this is just my opinion.

LT: I pretty much addressed this one already, so I won't spend a ton of time on it. Keys are quick feet, technique, agility, hand placement, balance, recovery moves.

RT: The game is changing due to more excellent Edge rushers, but teams are still right handed for the most part....especially in 11 personnel. RT's are not typically quite as athletic, agile, and possess the footwork as LT's. They tend to be stronger and better at run blocking. See Conklin.........our new RT. But, because the game is changing, good feet and technique are becoming more important.

Center: He is important because he makes the line calls. He needs to intelligent and quick reader of fronts. He, along w/the QB, is responsible for pass protection calls. I know that might not sound important, but it truly is.

LG: This guard is typically more athletic. He pulls more, traps more, goes to the second level more, etc. A lot of these guys played LT in college. See Bitonio.

RG: This guy has the worst skill set, typically. However, he is usually very strong and is a good run blocker. Ideally, you want your worst o-lineman to man that position.

I see you're trying to do your part to make this thread more popular I kid because I care.

I think one aspect of OL "play" that is often overlooked is that absolute strength is less important than the ability to consistently apply the strength a player has. Technique can also help keep an opponent from exerting all of his strength. Unfortunately, technique won't overcome some deficiencies. I'm on the fence with Ezra Cleveland here. I think he'll need to improve his technique a lot, but I'm not sure he'll ever have the time under the new rules and especially this year with minimal contact due to the corona virus.

I agree mostly.

My only feeling of difference is I tend to place a bit more value on the interior guys.

The game of football at the QB position is changing. I think being able to keep rushers out of a QBs face is more important that being solid on the edge. Maybe that doesn't sound quite right, you need solid edge play, my point is the quickest way to a QB is up the middle. QB's have ways to avoid a strong edge rush if the wall in front of them is solid. Stepping up even 2 steps ruins a DEs angle of attack. If the rush is right in his face, he can't do anything.

Todays QB's are mostly 1 read guys. If that isn't there, they break wide to find something else to play schoolyard ball or take off running to gain what they can and move on to the next play.

Things go in cycles. It's not quite the same, but it is almost like going back to single wing style football.

Wow , what would Chubb do behind an average line ?

Wow .... one tackle we know can play another that should be able to play and Hunt for the entire season ... i see good things coming ....

LETS GOOOOOOOooooooooooo

I'm surprised that we where not lower/higher (based on perspectives) on the list.

we’re about to find out

Glad you revived the thread, but I did post the Browns run blocking grade early on in the thread. I also posted their pass blocking grade. They were 17th in that category. You must have missed that from PFF. LOL

I will say that both Conklin and Wills should help a lot in the run game. Both are known for being very good at that part of the game. Kind of hard to laud a guy who hasn't played in the NFL yet, but Conklin has and he is outstanding as a run blocker. Wills had a good rep in college. Chubb and Hunt should kick butt.

I’d rather revive an old thread than start a new thread. Sorry I didn’t remember what you posted months ago. I saw this today and thought it was relevant so I posted it.

It's good. Just messing w/you.