DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Palus Politicus Hydroxychloroquine: A Case Study In Bad Science

No, there are clear medical ethics rules about this. If you are getting back statistically significant results (how statistically significant is always debatable) that the therapy is better than the control group, you are obligated to end the experiment immediately and treat the control group using the therapy.

And as several posters have made clear, there is nothing prohibiting doctors from treating patients with hydroxychloroquinine right now. It is possible it helps -- but some of the evidence is dubious (which is going to be true of any therapy at such an early stage), it also has some significant side effects (long term hearing damage among them).

The danger with Trump is claiming this as a miracle cure, rather than a possible treatment that should continue to be investigated. Additionally, Trump seems to be furthering the lore that "the experts are lying to you", which is especially dangerous during a pandemic. It's a failure of leadership, at a time when we need to give trust (and resources) to experts.

A voice of reason. Good take.

Arch, are you citing the Breitbart story that used Michael Cernovich as the source providing Trump's investment in the drug companies and mutual funds or did you see the information elsewhere?

Michael Cernovich is an alt-right conspriacy theorist. He's basically Alex Jones. He's the one who made up pizza gate scandal.

He just makes things up to get a rise out of people.

I don't know if I'm citing him. What I AM citing is even the msm has said "he has a small personal interest through a mutual fund...." Now, maybe trump pays a lot more attention to exactly what his mutual funds are invested in than I do. But come on, it's a mutual fund.

Oh, by the way, have you heard? Even the cdc is saying their might be something to the hydrochlori....however you spell it.

NORTHWELL HEALTH, NEW YORK: The 23-hospital healthcare system began in late March to use hydroxychloroquine routinely in patients admitted with the sometimes deadly respiratory illness caused by the virus, according to Dr. Kevin Tracey, chief executive of Northwell’s research arm. This was based on preliminary data that “it may be beneficial,” said Chief Pharmacy Officer Onisis Stefas. Hydroxychloroquine is given to patients who have “really no other options,” and have not qualified for clinical trials of other potential coronavirus treatments, he said. Northwell also allows doctors to prescribe it in conjunction with the antibiotic azithromycin on a case by case basis, but that is not standard of care.

NYU LANGONE HEALTH, NEW YORK: NYU has been giving the drug to patients since early March, according to Dr. Michael Belmont, a rheumatologist. Some doctors at NYU are also prescribing azithromycin in combination with hydroxychloroquine, although Belmont said the medical literature he has seen is “insufficient to draw an inference that the combination is especially effective.”


Lastly, don't believe everything you read on Facebook which is where the nonsense started that Michigan and New York governors were banning the use hydroxychloroqine. People don't really believe Governors have the ability to restrict physicians on how they can treat patients, do they?

https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/20...york-and-nevad/

https://www.reuters.com/article/health-c...s-idUSL1N2BU1K5

Fair enough. I just was hoping people weren't taking what Michael Cernovich said as anything serious.

My apologies ... i did not know they were the same thing ... i need the reading lessons ...

I don’t do facebook .... i just struggled with 0 + 0 = 0 .... that’s not good ....

I've stopped listening to him altogether.
I tune in daily to Gov. DeWine and Dr. Acton.
I read material from the CDC, AMA and other professionals.

After Day Two of his press conferences, I put his ass on the curb, stomped on the accelerator, and never once glanced into my rear-view mirror.

This is a time for serious people with credentials, brains, and professional expertise. I'm not wasting even one moment of my life listening to a C-List TV "celebrity" lie to me.

I agree that that is what is supposed to happen, but the net result would be the same. The study would be abandoned. Some would counter that a greater good would be obtained by continuation completion of testing. Ethics are not easy, especially when lives are in the balance.

That is why I indicated that you cannot do this type of study under the circumstances of the coronavirus where death is an imminent threat. The study cannot be completed if the results are positive.

We know what how statistics are used from football (aka statistics are for losers). That is the purpose of peer review. The investigator extracts or structures the data in a misleading way in order to present the desired outcome.

Hey, y'all want to let Trump tell you how to treat your COVID, be my guest. I'd rather listen to a voodoo priestess...

The hydroxychloroquine and azithromycin need to be done with zinc, FWIW.

The azithromycin is to knock out secondary infections that may arise. The zinc is what is supposed to actually block the viral spread.

I swear by zinc for early treatment on colds and flus. Knowing that I could see why they are seeing some improvement rather the other meds work or not.

You know why you don't like listening to the press conferences? Because the press can't control the narrative.

I hope you're not listening to the WHO. That organization is a disgrace and the director is in bed with the Chinese government. SO SO glad we quit funding them. They are dirty as the day is long. So dirty.

How do you feel about OAN?

The lesson that you have gotten out of the last two months is that science and statistics are for losers?

Now there reports that Trump owns stock in the company that owns this med.

Absolute dumbest post ever..

There is no TDS...No such syndrome has ever been clinically diagnosed.

It's a way for Trumpians to contempt for those that don't kiss Trumps butt..

No. He has shares in a mutual fund, and that mutual fund has apparently invested into one of the companies that make it.

Hydroxychloroquine is the generic medication. ANY company can make it.

The non-generic is Plaquenil and it is manufactured by the French pharmaceutical company Sanofi-Aventis (which likely explains the original source in France with the craptacular study results).

I agree with this, in addition I would point out that they were predicting 100k-200k deaths. Yesterday we were at 14k and had 1,400 deaths, we would have to sustain 1,400 deaths for two more FULL MONTHS to get to the low end of the estimate.

So, the anecdotal evidence supports that this drug may help in addition to us not even being close to the death totals Dr. Fauci stated we would see.

ORANGE MAN BAD though.

I am just disgusted by the absolute partisanship in a time of crisis. (that in no way is directed at you charger)

Drug has been out of patent for how long? This drug has been around for decades, this is an irrelevant partisan "gotcha" fact.

The number of deaths doesn't support it at all, actually... and the simple fact that I can say that with conviction while someone could argue the counter with conviction and we'd both feel we are right is precisely the problem with anecdotal evidence.

Give me data.

Give me information that says we had a group of 50 males, aged 17-55, all presenting with a similar symptom set, and no underlying health issues.... half were given the hydroxychloroquine, zinc, azithromycin treatment and the other half (Control) received placebo. Following 'x' number of treatments, we had 'n'-more recoveries and 'y' fewer advancements to severe/critical than in the Control group.

Give me THAT kind of information... because without it, you really are just guessing. You aren't really even throwing crap against a wall to see if it sticks; you're just throwing crap. You can't know if people are recovering because they just had a mild case or if it is because of the medications.... and knowing that you have a medication that works is the entire point.

Exactly ... and while throwing crap might still be ok at this point. If you are very sick who wouldn't want to try anything that 'night' help ...

But there needs to be proper studies conducted even if on the smallest of sample sizes. If the study and document 20 patients in 10 different locations around the globe and they see a pattern then we might have something. But without this being done we really have no clue.

I get that, but that is not a luxury that we have at the moment I think is the point I am aligning with.

However I wholeheartedly agree the number of deaths do not warrant it.

BS show me a link that proves Cuomo can stop a doctor from prescribing this drug to their coronavirus patients? Until then I’ll stick with my original statement.....You are full of BS.

He cannot stop them. It is an existing approved medication; any doctor can prescribe it for anything.

A governor that doesn't know diddly about medicine cannot - and should not have the power to - tell doctors they cannot use something.

Absolutely.

Since we currently have nothing in terms of treatments, you gotta try whatever you can get your hands on that you think might help.

Zinc has been shown to help stop viral propagation? cool, use it.
Hydroxychloroquine helps the body absorb zinc and may help suppress the cytokine storm in late stage COVID-19? Great, give it out and see what happens?
Worried that the immunosuppressing effect of the hydroxychloroquine may leave the patient open to infections? Groovy... give them an antibiotic like azithromycin

BUT, all that data on every patient, every dose, every side effect, every outcome... it should all be getting collated in a single place. If we have states or hospitals not using that regimen, and we have plenty that are.... there's a data set to study. We can't just do what that French doctor did (or the guy in LA) and say "I gave this to a bunch of people, and the ones I counted didn't die... we should ALL USE THIS!" It doesn't work like that.

One big problem with it, though, is that apparently one of the largest manufacturing areas for hydroxychloroquine is India. Which is shut down like everywhere else.

Additionally, until two days ago, India had decided that they were not going to export any more. Trump then hinted that if they didn't start exporting it there may be retaliatory measures and on the 7th of April they did a u-turn on the stance toward exporting it.

They are now ramping up production, but it will take some time. Until then, the world supply isn't exactly robust.


U-Turn

Ramping Up

Anyone else think this is ironic? One day Trump demands GM stop distributing N95 (?) outside of the USA. The next he's threatening other nations that copy his lead?

We agree. And considering the governor of New York never said he isn’t going to allow the drug to be used if prescribed proves he doesn’t know diddly about medicine. He’s smart enough to leave that up to the doctors and experts. Unlike the disfunction junction bunch in the WH that are playing politics and can’t even support our front line hero’s in this war who are pretty much on their own and dying by the thousands. Pffft trump

Are you aware where the info you posted originated?

The testimonials are "I didn't die". The fact is over 95% of Covid 19 patients don't die.

AHA, ACC, HRS Caution Use of COVID-19 Therapies Hydroxychloroquine and Azithromycin in Cardiac Patients

New COVID-19 drug therapy guidance from the American Heart Association, the American College of Cardiology and the Heart Rhythm Society

April 8, 2020 – The scientific community is learning more about the impact and interaction of cardiovascular diseases with novel coronavirus (COVID-19, SARS-CoV-2), including the impact of drug therapies being used and their negative cardiovascular impact. Together, the American Heart Association (AHA), the American College of Cardiology (ACC) and the Heart Rhythm Society (HRS) April 8 jointly published a new guidance, “Considerations for Drug Interactions on QTc in Exploratory COVID-19 (Coronavirus Disease 19) Treatment,” to detail critical cardiovascular considerations in the use of hydroxychloroquine and azithromycin for the treatment of COVID-19.[1]

This guidance is published in Circulation, the journal of the American Heart Association, the Journal of the American College of Cardiology (JACC), and Heart Rhythm Journal, the official journal of the HRS.

Hydroxychloroquine and Azithromycin Pose Serious Health Risks

The antimalarial medication hydroxychloroquine and the antibiotic azithromycin are currently gaining attention as potential treatments for COVID-19, and each have potential serious implications for people with existing cardiovascular disease. Complications include severe electrical irregularities in the heart such as arrythmia (irregular heartbeat), polymorphic ventricular tachycardia (including Torsade de Pointes) and long QT syndrome, and increased risk of sudden death. The effect on QT or arrhythmia of these two medications combined has not been studied.

The AHA, the ACC and the HRS guidance for health care professionals includes additional mechanisms to reduce the risk of arrhythmias. Steps outlined:
• Electrocardiographic/QT interval monitoring;
• Withhold hydroxychloroquine and azithromycin in patients with baseline QT prolongation (e.g. QTc ≥500 msec) or with known congenital long QT syndrome;
• Monitor cardiac rhythm and QT interval; withdrawal of hydroxychloroquine and azithromycin if QTc exceeds a present threshold of 500 msec;
• In patients critically ill with COVID-19 infection, frequent caregiver contact may need to be minimized, so optimal electrocardiographic interval and rhythm monitoring may not be possible;
• Correction of hypokalemia >4mEq/L and hypomagnesemia >2mg/dL; and
• Avoid other QTc prolonging agents whenever feasible.

The statement also includes a table rating potential adverse cardiac events of medications currently being repurposed for COVID-19 treatment, such as chloroquine and lopinavir/ritonavir (antimalarial and antiviral agents, respectively).

“The urgency of COVID-19 must not diminish the scientific rigor with which we approach COVID-19 treatment. While these medications may work against COVID-19 individually or in combination, we recommend caution with these medications for patients with existing cardiovascular disease,” said Robert A. Harrington, M.D., FAHA, president of the American Heart Association, Arthur L. Bloomfield Professor of Medicine and chair of the department of medicine at Stanford University.

“We are united in our mission to achieve optimal, quality care for our patients, and we must continue to be vigilant in assessing the potential complications of all medications during this crisis,“ stated Athena Poppas, M.D., president of the American College of Cardiology, professor of medicine at Brown University and chief of cardiology and director of the Lifespan Cardiovascular Institute at Rhode Island, the Miriam and Newport hospitals in Providence, Rhode Island.

“Given the potential for increased risks related to combinations of medications that prolong the QT interval, we urge careful consideration to ensure patients with cardiovascular disease or others at increased risk can be monitored appropriately,” stated Andrea M. Russo, M.D., president of the Heart Rhythm Society, director of Electrophysiology and Arrhythmia Services at Cooper University Hospital, director of the CCEP Fellowship Program, and professor of medicine at Cooper Medical School of Rowan University in Camden, New Jersey.

The statement is also co-authored by Dan M. Roden, M.D., C.M., interim division chief of cardiovascular medicine, senior vice president for personalized medicine, faculty of the clinical cardiac electrophysiology program, Sam Clark Chair in Experimental Therapeutics, professor of pharmacology and professor of biomedical informatics at Vanderbilt University in Nashville, Tennessee.

https://www.dicardiology.com/article/aha...romycin-cardiac

Don't let facts get in your way.

It's hard to point the fingers at others when someone is posting stupidity.

So let me ask you. if over 95% of people recover from the virus, who is to actually say, based on any "real evidence" that Trump's advocated treatment is the reason they recovered?

What you raise is what many feel about this drug at the moment.

THe majority of mild cases recover on their own. Not much of the existing data shows those who are in a severe and/or critical state are affected by either form of chloroquine.

Too many in this thread got caught up in the "TRUMP GOOD FDA AND LIBERALS BAD BECAUSE REAGAN SAID SO!" rather than look at the actual studies.

The current studies and majority of anecdotal evidence show this still isn't an effective treatment for covid.

Keep testing if you wish, but it's showing this isn't doing much of anything.

Yet all u do is point fingers ....

And I can count them all. I point out facts and you can't refute them. So this is all you can do. I use sources and data. You just throw crap with nothing to back it up. A true Trumpian.

I feel like a number of people, who like to doubt science, have this weird habit of throwing around "peer review", without really knowing how it works...