DawgTalkers.net Forums The Archives 2020 NFL Season 2020 NFL Draft Isaiah Simmons

Its 2020 bro ... get with the program ... qb’s now have eyes in the back of there head ...

Well now it all makes sense.

A bad LT, and for that matter, a bad RT = a long day for any QB even the ones that can run. You want to run when you want to not when you have to.

J/C - If Simmons is there at 10, I think we have to take him. We've addressed one of the tackle positions with Conklin. Peters is an option - hell - I would wager Washington might take our second round pick for Williams, if we felt that there were no options in the draft that were viable.

You have to take a difference maker at #10. From what I've seen, Simmons can be that. I just don't see him being there at 10. I do see one of the top 3 OTs being there.

This is a RICH draft class. This is one it may make sense to trade down but if a bonafide stud is sitting at 10, yous gots to takes him.

Physics don't change, but our understanding of them does change. The hit you can't see coming adage is a common refrain, but I'm not sure the data backs it up. Especially with the new rules, QBs don't have to worry about getting their knees taken out. I might argue with all the protections QBs receive, we should be worrying more about the pressure a QB sees in his face as that might have more of an effect on his performance. You still can't let him get hit, but I'm not sure they hurt any more if you don't see them coming. Getting hit square in the chops while trying to step up into a throw while staring down the barrel probably is pretty high up on the list of what hurts the most. It's physics. Two things moving in opposite directions (towards each other -> <-) result in more force when they collide.

I think we take the best player on the Browns board regardless of position at #10, it's not like we can't use Simmons or a another Dlineman. The only exception I would make is if we have a LT rated very close to the highest rated player on our board, then I would take the LT.

You can say that all you like, but a QB has options if he can see a hit coming. He can move to help deflect the hit and not take a direct hit. He can give himself up as we have seen pocket QB's do in the past to avoid a hit. Scrambling QB's have the option to scramble away from oncoming hits so that it minimizes the speed of the collision.

The one's from behind, that you can't see coming give you none of those options. They come from a direction that can cause the neck and spine to bend in ways they should never do. They can catch you standing still so that the impact has increased velocity.

I still have no idea how this is even worthy of debate.

....when was the last time you had a physics class? How would standing still increase velocity?

It's about angles. Edge rushers are often looping around rather than coming on in a straight line. Any more they often avoid the QB's body and swipe for the ball.

As far as neck and spine bending in directions they shouldn't, that's true for any hit.

You want to block them all.

If you said pressure they can't see is more likely to cause turnovers, sure. Hurt more? It's scientifically unlikely. Anecdotally, perhaps.

Yup. We simply need a guy good enough to not only make it through his rookie deal, but to have us want to give him a new deal after that.

We don't need HoF-quality to get that. We need "solid NFL starter".

Let me try to explain this a little slower. If someone is running at you and you are standing still, they hit you at their full speed. If you are running away from them, your speed offsets the speed at which they hit you. If you can move to help deflect the hit it lessens the impact. This is actually pretty basic stuff.



Any way you look at it, the hit you don't see coming is the one you can't prepare for. And hitting you from behind forces the back and neck to bend in the opposite direction it should.



You don't say.



Being able to duck, scramble and deflect a direct hit verses being hit from behind where you can't see it coming isn't a matter of being anecdotal to anything.

Basic, yes. But not what you had said earlier. It might be what you meant, but it's not what you wrote.



If you get hit in the front, the ground usually hits you in the back. It's that hitting the ground that frequently causes concussions. It doesn't matter if you're ready for it or not. It's that sudden change one direction then a sudden change in the other direction that's awful for brain injuries. If you get hit in the back you might rock your neck back a bit, but it's not into a solid surface.

With the rule changes, there aren't the many of the big hits there used to be on QBs. Most DEs are taught to go for the strip now. It's harder to strip if the QB sees you coming, so those in the face, quick pressures end up the bigger hits now.



How do you measure pain? Is surprise actually pain?

It matters how hard you get hit and where, not whether you see it coming or not.

Are there instances where seeing the player coming allows you to avoid them? Yes, but that wasn't the argument you presented earlier.

Can we get off this tangent and back on topic?

Isaiah Simmons, where will he land? He might not make it past Detroit.

He could fall to us. It'll be interesting to see where he ends up on Thursday.

https://www.dawgsbynature.com/2020/4/19/...iLfDGY2IdY9yZtg

Could Isaiah Simmons drop to the Browns at number 10? Here’s how
56
There are circumstances that must fall just right

By Barry Shuck Apr 19, 2020, 9:16am EDT
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NCAA Football: College Football Playoff National Championship-Clemson vs Alabama
Matthew Emmons-USA TODAY Sports
Going into the off-season, the Browns were in need of two safeties, two offensive tackles and linebackers. These were the top priorities. Luckily for Cleveland fans, two safeties, a middle linebacker and a right tackle were signed in free agency.

Cleveland owns the 10th pick in the first-round of the draft which just happens to be rich in offensive tackle prospects in each round.

Awesome. And, and, and - there are five offensive tackles linked to being taken in the first-round of this year’s college draft: RT Jedrick Wills, Jr. of Alabama, Houston LT Josh Jones, RT Mekhi Becton of Louisville, LT/RT Andrew Thomas from Georgia and Iowa’s Tristan Wirfs, who has played both positions in college. Therefore, the Browns should be able to have their pick of two or even three of these dancing elephants and fill yet another need for years to come.

And while taking a guy to man the left tackle spot is ultra-important, the defense has quite a few holes from last year as well. The linebacker position is far from being solved. Cleveland let go veterans Adarius Thomas and Christian Kirksey and then allowed MLB Joe Schobert to sign with Jacksonville in free agency.

But, what if the Browns could get Clemson Tigers LB Isaiah Simmons without having to trade up? With your GM hat on, would you take him? The better question might be, why wouldn’t you take him?

Who is Isaiah Simmons?
Before the angle of actually drafting Simmons is revealed, some thoughts on the player himself. First off, most mock draft sites have him listed as the fourth best player in this year’s draft. This places him the third best defensive player behind a pair of Ohio State athletes: EDGE rusher Chase Young and CB Jeffrey Okudah.

College Football Playoff National Championship - Clemson v LSU
Photo by Justin Tafoya/Getty Images
To say that Simmons (6’, 4” 238 pounds) has versatility is an understatement. In his first playing year for Clemson after a redshirt freshman year, he started 14 games at strong safety and had 45 tackles, six pass defenses, three tackles for loss, one forced fumble plus a single sack.

In his sophomore year as he put on more weight, he was switched to the SAM linebacker spot and beat out senior athlete Jalen Williams. Simmons started all 15 games. His stats that year were 88 total tackles, two sacks, nine tackles for loss, one interception, three forced fumbles, six pass defenses and scored a touchdown on a pick-six. In the college football playoffs, Clemson handled Notre Dame 30-3 and then clobbered Alabama 44-16 in the National Championship Game. Simmons led the Tigers in total tackles for the two games.


At this point, Simmons had been three years removed from high school and could have applied for the NFL draft. He was projected to be drafted somewhere in the first two rounds. He had just won a National Championship, led the Tigers in tackling during the season, and was guaranteed a pretty sizable contract. Instead, he returned to Clemson in order to improve his play.

And improve he did. His junior year Simmons remained as the strongside linebacker and busted out with 104 total tackles, eight sacks, three interceptions, eight pass defenses, two forced fumbles, one fumble recovery and 16.5 tackles for loss during 15 games. Clemson again played for the National Championship against the LSU Tigers, but lost 42-25. In that game, Simmons had seven tackles, one sack, two pass defenses and two tackles for loss.

Here is what The Draft Network says of Simmons:

“Isaiah Simmons is a blue chip prospect with unparalleled versatility. His unbelievable length and athletic gifts make him a sensible fit for a number of positions, including MIKE, SAM, SS and a nickel LB in coverage. Simmons has explosive qualities and will be an asset vs. the run and pass alike. He’s a game changing player who should be coveted as a true 3-down linebacker/hybrid defender who can be the pivotal chess piece in a weekly defensive game plan.”

If you watched any amount of Clemson games, you saw that Simmons was basically all over the field at every moment.

His final year with the Tigers, Simmons was awarded the Butkus Award (for the nation’s best linebacker), First Team All-ACC, ACC Defensive Player-of-the-Year, and was voted Unanimous First Team All-American.

DraftCountdown.com has this assessment:

“The uber-athletic Simmons is an extremely unique prospect who champions would call a linebacker / defensive back hybrid while detractors might use the phrase positional ‘tweener. Regardless of the label Simmons is a rangy, versatile chess piece ideally suited for a modern defense. This past season Simmons lined up at outside and inside linebacker, safety, at cornerback both outside and in the slot and even notched 7 sacks rushing off the edge. Questions about his position at the next level make him somewhat of a difficult evaluation for scouts, but the bottom line is Simmons is a playmaker whether it’s as a linebacker, safety, cornerback or edge pass rusher.”

Simmons is one of the most energizing players in this year’s college draft, and he just happens to be a linebacker.

ACC Football Championship - Clemson v Miami
Photo by Mike Comer/Getty Images
Just how would Simmons slip to the 10th pick?
Football is a game. And with Simmons, we are going to play another game: dominoes. But instead of playing these tiles flat for points, we are doing the stand-up falling dominoes variety.

In the first-round of the NFL draft, there are lots of trades. 2017 set the record for the most trades in the draft with 37 until last year’s 40 whooping trades. The Seattle Seahawks had only four picks before draft day and ended up with 11 new players.


But this year is quite different. Coaches, scouts, the owners and GMs are not even going to be in the same room come draft day while the NFL has augmented a “virtual draft” system. That means that clubs aren’t going to have the liberty of fast communication during the actual draft and therefore it is estimated that the amount of trades this year will become an all-time low. So, for this situation and for argument-sake, we are leaving every team where it is for these reasons and also because you cannot accurately predict which teams will swap places with another.

The first overall pick is AFC North division foe Cincinnati. They will pick LSU quarterback Joe Burrow.

The second selection is owned by the Washington Redskins who will grab who many feel is the best player in the draft with Chase Young of Ohio State.

Choice number 3 are the Detroit Lions, owners of one of the worst pass defenses in the league. Last year, the Lions were dead last in this category allowing 284.4 yards a game, dead last in total yards allowed per game with 4,551 and tied for last in total interceptions (7). Detroit wants to change that and will take Ohio State cornerback Jeff Okudah with the third pick.

NCAA Football: College Football Playoff Semifinal-Cotton Bowl-Notre Dame vs Clemson
Matthew Emmons-USA TODAY Sports
Up next is Domino Number 1 - the New York Football Giants with the 4th pick
Just like the Browns and every other club that is drafting in the Top 10, the Giants have many holes to fill with quality players. Make that quality new players. Their defense was also pretty bad last year, and Simmons should be a lock right here. But, hold that thought.

New York addressed many of their defensive woes in free agency. They signed CB James Bradberry to a three-year $43.5 million contract, one of the best available linebackers in Blake Martinez to a $30.7 million three-year deal, another LB Kyler Fackrell (one-year, $4.6 million) and then franchised their own DT Leonard Williams, which will cost them $17 million.


They also signed a free agent tight end, plus tendered four of their own players. This has left them with just over $11 million remaining. And they still need an offensive tackle - or two. With this in mind, all of the Top 5 offensive tackles projected in the first-round are sitting there with the fourth pick.

The Giants have a young quarterback, a second-year running back, spent money on a young first-round tight end, and own a porous offensive line. They need help with protection of last year’s first-round pick QB Daniel Jones. They aren’t real satisfied with Nate Solder at the left tackle spot, but are shackled with his four-year $62 million deal he signed back in 2018. They are better off keeping him than being sacked with a large amount of dead money. But the right tackle position has been a revolving door for years. And the draft’s best right tackle is sitting there.

The Giants drop the first domino and select Alabama RT Jedrick Wills.

Up next are the Miami Dolphins and the Los Angeles Chargers with picks 5 and 6, respectively. They will take quarterbacks, precisely Tua Tagnovailoa of Alabama and Oregon’s Justin Herbert. The Chargers will take whichever signalcaller Miami doesn’t select.


Which brings us to Domino Number 2 - the Carolina Panthers with the 7th pick
What does Carolina need is the first question to ask.

Let’s start with some statistics. One thing for sure – numbers don’t lie. On offense they were 20th in passing yards per game and points scored, but 31st in touchdowns scored. Their defense ranked a respectable 13th in passing yards allowed per game (231.0) while their rushing defense finished 29th against the run (143.5). Ouch.

And then there are two little stats that may reveal the Panthers’ plans for the draft: Carolina was second in the most interceptions thrown (21), and more importantly - the most sacks allowed with 58.

The Panthers can’t stop the run, and they can’t block their own grandmas. However, they have been blessed with six wonderful potential draft prospects staring them in the face: offensive tackles Wirfs, Bechton, Thomas and Jones, Auburn DT Derrick Brown, and Simmons who is still on the board.

Which free agents Carolina signed may provide a clue of what direction they will follow. The Panthers signed three (yes, three) quarterbacks: Teddy Bridgewater from the New Orleans Saints, their own backup Kyle Allen, and P.J. Walker which lit up the XFL. The Panthers also inked five wide receivers in Seth Roberts (Baltimore Ravens), Pharoh Cooper (Arizona Cardinals), DeAndrew White (Panthers), Keith Kirkwood (Saints), plus the second best receiver in the free agent market in Robby Anderson (New York Jets).


Other offensive players signed were offensive guard John Miller (Bengals) and tight end Seth DeValve.

On defense, Carolina signed a defensive tackle, a defensive end, linebacker, and two safeties including one of the most coveted: Tre Boston.

The Panthers sport one of the game’s best young running backs in Christian McCaffrey. They now have a new starting QB with Bridgewater, a tight end to replace the departed Greg Olson, and five new receivers. But when the offensive line cannot sustain blocks and guys keep pouring into the pocket all game/every game, interceptions go up (2nd most ranking), average yards per reception go down (28th ranking), offensive ranking falls out (dead last #32), and that all-important statistic: sacks go way up.

And in this case, all the way up to 58 allowed in a single season.

There is a lot riding on the Panthers’ offense beginning with Bridgewater. Carolina didn’t sign all those receivers just to have constant pocket collapses. The most significant move they can make is to protect their new quarterback and continue to open holes for their prized running back. Carolina drops the next domino and selects Louisville OT Mekhi Becton.

COLLEGE FOOTBALL: SEP 07 Texas A&M at Clemson
Photo by John Byrum/Icon Sportswire via Getty Images
Which brings us to Domino Number 3 - Arizona Cardinals and the 8th pick
The Cardinals had so many needs they made a list: offensive tackle, linebacker, tight end, cornerback, wide receiver, safety, EDGE rusher, defensive tackle, offensive guard and running back.

They were very, very busy in free agency and filled most of their most pressing needs during the first week of the free agent market period. Solved the linebacker issue with Devon Kennard (Lions) and De’Vondre Campbell (Cardinals). DT Jordan Phillips was signed from the Buffalo Bills, while All-Pro wide receiver DeAndre Hopkins was obtained in a stunning trade with Houston. And Arizona placed the transition tag on running back Kenyan Drake.

On offense, the Cards were in the bottom third in passing yards per game, touchdown passes, total offensive ranking, but was 10th in the rushing game. Arizona has placed quite a bit of their future on quarterback Kyler Murray. On the offensive line, they re-signed LT D.J. Humphries before he was able to hit the free agent market, and have inked LG Max Garcia and OT Justin Murray while RG Justin Pugh and C Mason Cole are holdovers.


The offense could use an infusion of firepower. The temptation is just too much to bear, and with their pick they take WR Jerry Jeudy, the speedster from Alabama to pair with Hopkins and the last season of the aging Larry Fitzgerald who now has seen his replacement.

Which brings us to Domino Number 4 - the Jacksonville Jaguars with the 9th pick
Here it is - so close you can taste it. Jacksonville loves defense and loves to take defensive players in the first-round. They also lost several key components to their defense from last year.

And at their feet are LB Simmons, DT Brown and CB C.J. Henderson of Florida. Last season, the Jags were the 28th defense against the run and a respectable 16th against the pass. But this franchise filled their linebacker need with the signing of former Brown Joe Schobert to pair with the sensational Myles Jack. And they have a glaring need at cornerback and stopping the run.

The squeaky wheel gets the oil, and Jacksonville takes an Aaron Donald clone and selects DT Derrick Brown from Auburn to man the middle of their prized unit.

Yes, Wirfs, Thomas and to some degree Jones are still on the board, and the Browns desperately need a left tackle.

But two things to remember: 1) Simmons is the fourth-rated player in the draft and can provide game-winning abilities, and 2) this draft is very rich in all rounds with offensive tackle prospects. In Round 2 Cleveland can find TCU’s Lucas Niang, Prince Tega Wanogho of Auburn, USC’s Austin Jackson, Ezra Cleveland from Boise State and who knows, maybe Josh Jones will slip into the second-round. Round 3 will offer Terrance Steele of Texas Tech and LSU’s Saahdiq Charles. So regardless, the left tackle position can be solved without taking one in the first-round.

And consider this: the trail to win the AFC North runs through Baltimore. The Browns need a counter-answer to Ravens’ QB Lamar Jackson.

Is it really that simple to get Simmons? Of course not.

Or.....

IMHO

There are a lot of people interpreting the Browns interest in Ezra Cleveland as evidence they plan to trade down and target him later in the 1st. I think they are doing their homework on who to target in the 2nd if they can use #10 for BPA. I've no doubt that, should Simmons (or Brown for that matter) fall to #10, he's the best player on the board. If the BPA at #10 is an OT, then great, we draft the tackle. But if it's not, we will target Cleveland in the 2nd.

ISAIAH SIMMONS
LB, COLLEGE PLAYER

NBC Sports' Peter King reports the Panthers "love" Clemson LB Isaiah Simmons.

It's not a surprise. Simmons is the best linebacker (or safety) prospect in the class, and the organization is replacing Luke Kuechly following his retirement. Simmons' positional versatility and elite athleticism (4.39 forty, 39-inch vertical) make him a consensus top-10 prospect. It's possible that he goes in the top-six, but he'll be squarely in the mix at No. 7 overall when the Panthers are on the clock if he slides beyond that.

RELATED: Carolina Panthers
SOURCE: NBC Sports
Apr 20, 2020, 2:17 AM ET

Agreed. No other player in this draft fascinates me with his potential like Simmons. I don't think it will happen, but he's the guy I want most for the Browns.

Get Simmons and trade for Trent Williams and call it a night.

Trent Green was great in his prime but I don't know if he still has it at age 49. He would be a good veteran mentor for Baker though. I wonder what CBS would want for him.

???????

I agree. I think that is the floor for that kid.

The whole Carolina connection....just makes sense.

IMO, I'd wager the 'skins want a draft pick this year in a Williams trade. I don't have any evidence, just a gut feeling.

I think we've hit an impasse, and that's why rumors have cooled. I don't think we need to let the 'skins have their way with us in a trade for Williams in such a tackle-rich draft, and with Peters out there.

Already posted by Grateful in the PF "Trades" thread, but I think it fits here as a possible Plan B for the Browns in the (unlikely) event that Simmons slips to 10 ...

From Josina Anderson (Twitter) ...

I’m told acquiring Trent Williams is “still on the table” for the #Browns, per source today. "Nothing is imminent or super close right now," but the Browns are keeping their thumb on the situation--meaning something still may, or may not happen w/Trent before or after the Draft.

6:23 AM - 21 Apr 2020

https://twitter.com/JosinaAnderson/status/1252588674388238341

Jason Peters is still looking for a team, right?

I think Peters would suddenly make a whole bunch of sense for us if we ended up with one of the 2nd tier tackles coming out of the draft. A guy that we feel really good about, but know that he's got stuff to work on for at least a year.

Sounds more like a smokescreen/attempt to get someone to jump up for him and add more picks to me.

If they actually like him, they're less likely to let it slip at this time of the year-I think. Or at least, they may like him, but might have other needs they prioritize more highly.

Looking at their roster, I'm guessing they look to address OG/DT.

They could still address LB with Simmons. I'm not sure he's "Temple tough" enough for Rhule, though.

Then again, the new group could be looking to make a splash. Not sure the trenches move the needle marketing-wise. Simmons would probably be a popular pick in Carolina amongst the fans.

Simmons never gets past the Panthers !

That's what I have been saying, If we want him if he is our true #1 target they will have to go to #7 ...

Don't fool yourself. He might not get past the Lions.

I like this idea too. Trent is my first option, this is my 2nd.

IMO, at this point, if we get Trent it's because we either missed out on or didn't like the LT prospects and their likelihood of ending up with us.

Or it opens up a ton more options for us in the draft.

I don't think we're trading for him unless it's a fourth round pick or later.

Agreed. I might go as high as our second 3rd rounder, but that's the max...

Browns 3rd round picks since 1999:

Sione Takitaki
Chad Thomas
Larry Ogunjobi
Carl Nassib
Shon Coleman
Cody Kessler
Duke Johnson
Xavier Cooper
Christian Kirksey
Terrance West
Leon McFadden
John Hughes
Colt McCoy
Shawn Lauvao
Travis Wilson
Charlie Frye
Chris Crocker
Melvin Fowler
James Jackson
Travis Prentice
Jajuan Dawson
Daylon McCutcheon
Marquis Smith

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/cle/draft.htm

There's 5-6 "pretty good" players in there, but seriously folks, would you really not give up any of them for a perennial All-Pro Left Tackle, even if he is 31 years old?

It’s the contract more than the pick.

Last I heard, we have $37M avail cap money. I don't think anyone is suggesting we pay Williams that much, or even half that much. His agent suggested $16M per year would probably get him signed.

https://nfltraderumors.co/agent-refutes-report-regarding-trent-williams-contract-demands/

Right. That’s too much for a player who just sat out a year and is always hurt.

LOL...Made a fool of you.

You are very quick with the edit button.

He's not "always hurt". He has had a difficult couple of years due to a malignant growth on his head, but any contract would be contingent on a physical.