DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Browns Offensive Grades

I think if you look at the team in entirety I think Freddie owns the largest slice of the pie you are imagining. If you look at Baker's performance, I think Baker owns the largest slice of the pie by some margin. There's layers of additional issues that didn't prepare him to be successful or made it harder for him to be successful - but I believe that if we had a better HC and a better OL and better play calling and WR's who knew where to line up, less injury/turnover at TE .... what ever else influenced the bad play ... if that was "ok" I still think Baker would have played well below his Rookie performance and his ceiling last year would have been average at best and in reality probably below average... It's in the past, hoping he has a rocket up his kieser and is motivated and Stefanski puts things in play to help him be successful. Just like a HC is supposed to do.

So you're saying if everything is perfect around a QB, it helps them?

I think Kitchen's ego got the best of him
Monken was 10x the Offensive mind Kitchens was.
Yet had very little say so on Sundays
Monken like Shanahan couldn't wait to get out of Berea

I'm not sure about ego being the problem, but he certainly lacked any ability of being an NFL HC.

I think Bakers 1st 4 games this year will tell us alot.

I don't know. New system, new coaching staff.

I'll be paying more attention to the last eight games of the season than anything. I mean if he's obviously totally lost, I may give that some credence. But under the circumstances I don't expect everything to be clicking right out of the gate. Though I would consider it a pleasant surprise.

No, but nice one.

Hell I would say that.

Your a smart fella...any idea how many actual
Systems there are in the NFL?
We hear that word alot....systems...thrown around
I think Baker and the offense has to come out
Of the gate on fire
There won't be a 8 game honeymoon for Mayfield
He's the number 1 overall pick for pete sake
You can't treat him with kid gloves anymore

You have a lot of presuppositions, but (if) false assumptions lead to false conclusions.

You and the rest of us here are in no position to make such wild claims.

Did he and his receivers not get together out in California before the season?
Or am I mistaken?

Its just as likely that Baker set out to hasten the demise [falling on his sword] of his bumbling Head Coach and play caller, who by the preponderance of his ineptitude calling plays, did Baker, nor anyone else any favors.

No matter the system you're running, familiarity and continuity within that system is critical. Despite the system, the verbiage varies from coach to coach.

This will be Baker's third HC going into season three.

I'm not one who has ever coddled Baker. He does things I don't like and he has played in games where I did like his play. I have seen his potential to be very good and I've seen him look lost.

I always feel rookies should get three full years before a complete evaluation is given.

I understand the situation and understand that with a new HC, it would be unrealistic for me to think they'll come out of the gate firing on all cylinders.

If you disagree so be it. But I'm not going to set expectations on Baker to claim he's failed before he's even been given a full season under the same HC, in the same system.

"Having everything perfect helps" as you said ... that's an accurate statement but it doesn't follow (or least ways I don't believe) that the QB can only thrive when everything is perfect. I think you saying something like that gives a false impression that Baker can only be good if things are perfect. . . he's going to get sacked, someone on the OL is going to get injured and a back up is going to play, his receivers are going to drop balls - and Baker has to be good enough and mentally touch enough to still find ways to win and make plays. He faced adversity in his rookie season and rose to the challenge. He fell on his face in 2019. I am glad Stefanski wants to place a high priority on giving Baker what he needs to be successful - I think that's what every NFL HC is trying to do. But nothing is ever 'perfect' .... Freddie failed miserably at this part of his job last year, but I really don't want to rehash all that because the conversation has already been covered dozen and dozens of times and that was not the thrust of my post you responded to.

If I'm getting the point you were making, you feel even if all those issues were resolved, you don't believe Baker would have played as well as he did as a rookie.

I'm not sure if I agree with that but it's certainly something we'll never know.

This is a make or break year for Baker.3 offensive coordinators or not.
When you take a QB number 1 overall he's supposed to be ahead of the curve in regards
To other QB drafted after him.
Last year nobody was complaining come week 1
How come Baker was with his 2nd OC as in many years
No all we heard was how unstoppable the offense was gonna be....how the Browns were gonna smoke
The Titans....3 and 1 was gonna be their record
After 4 games.
The funniest thing I heard was the Browns
Were gonna run the table the last 8 games of the season

Very simply Mayfield has to become close to elite
In order for this franchise to get past 8 wins
Stefanski won't hesitate pulling Baker if the offense is struggling
Keenum right now isnt that much worse BM.
Keenum has won games. He's probally over .500 for his career

I agree.
He either shows enough growth that we can be confident that he's The Guy, or he doesn't, and we move into 2021 accordingly.

27-35 - try again. 1 good year with MN.

Eh you got me there. But he did lead Minnesota
To the playoffs. And his TD to INT ratio is Better than Mayfields.
In Stefanski offense I see alot of underneath
Routes and a moving pocket.
The heat is on Baker
Last year he had to worries about being benched
Now theirs a QB behind him that is proven
He's won more than 10 games In a single season
And he's won a playoff game

I think both Baker and Stefanski can show, independently, if they've got "it" and will stick. I think both can show that even if either one sucks.

I'll also be grading them over the course of the season. One game shouldn't make or break either, at this point.

Personally, I think they will both show that they've got it.

Baker was not good last year, but I attribute a good deal of his issues to whatever the heck that offense was we ran, the insistence upon doing things we'd shown we didn't do well, avoidance of the things we DID do well, and the regular practice of calling things we didn't practice.

Basically, there was more than enough dysfunction surrounding that offense last year that I take everyone's (players) performances with a healthy grain of salt.
That we had not only a 1,00 yard rusher but also two 1,00 yard receivers with that offense was simply miraculous.

It amazed me we were good/ winning games, then next year the rest of NFL had film to watch, knew tendencies and went after our weaknesses.....Freddie didn't change/adapt....hope new coach is better prepared to give his "playmakers" better opportunities...GO Browns!!!

I disagree, last year's offense was completely different than two year's agos.

It didn't fit Baker's strengths and nobody had any idea what was going on.


That was the problem. We should have been running Todd Haley's Offense (which Baker understood and was good in), and we switched to this big vertical passing offense Freddie made up, which absolutely didn't suit Baker

Bake stunk in Haley’s o ...

Bake shined in Freddie’s tweaking of Haley’s ...

Bake stunk in Freddie’s o last year ...

Bake was not good in Haley’s o ... in defense of Haley (and I’m no fan) it was designed for Tyrod not Bake ..

One has to wonder if he is a system qb? Or, if folks just figured him out? Perhaps, he didn't approach the game the right way last off-season and he will improve by leaps and bounds this year?

I don't have any answers. But, we will should have a much better understanding of him as a qb after this year. I think the Browns have done--and are doing--everything they can to make him successful. Both regimes have been smart that way. You draft a QB #1 overall, it's intelligent to help him out as much as you can.

J/C I think it was a perfect storm of crap that hit our offense last year and Baker as a young QB couldnt navigate through that storm. I think losing Njouku early on and never getting him back was a huge issue. TE are always a young QB's best friend and we really had nothing after.
Freddy was a friggin mess and when players say that the game plan that was established during the week wasnt always run on Sunday is scary.
The OBJ factor
The O line was not good at all.
I think Baker got sloppy as the season went on and he really never seemed to have rhythm in games.
I think the new staff will get the best out of him and have already made big strides in providing more talent

This is my opinion, but I bet 31 other starting NFL qbs wish they had "The OBJ factor."

Dont get me wrong, he is very talented, However, in last years situation as to why things may not have gone well, It is my opinion he may have been a little too much for our staff.
I dont believe 31 other GM's want the OBJ factor, that's why we got him. As a New Yorker and surrounded by a slew of Giants fans, it was a 50/50 split on whether they were pissed at the trade and others said Good Riddance. I am not sure if he is good for young QB's. Just Sayin

I disagree w/your analysis, but I respect your opinion.

I actually think Baker was a much bigger problem than OBJ. I am not sure if Baker was good for talented WRs.

Like I said, it was a crapstorm with many contributing factors. I certainly hope and think we are ironing these problems out. A week from now when we are infused with new Draft talent we could see most of our problems go away! Or at least hope

I hope so, too.

Yeah, that is everyone’s hope

I agree, but IMO all QB's are system QB's. Peyton Manning wouldn't have been very good in a read option offense, as an example. He was a system QB.

You play to your players strengths. Stick Lamar Jackson in a strict drop back O with a coach who doesn't allow him to move out of the pocket, he isn't going to look MVP good.

Let players do what they do best. Too many pitchers have been screwed up by some goofy coach who didn't like arm angle or whatever. If the guy is throwing lasers on the edges, just leave him alone.

Not to pick nits or detract from your overall point, but I think Peyton Manning is the one exception. I don't think there is a system he couldn't have excelled in. He really was the complete QB.... all the physical skills and a mega-QB brain as well as a big time student of the game.

Aside from that, I agree completely

I don't agree w/peen's take. I get the Lamar thing. He is a system qb.

However, there are many qbs who have excelled under different coaches and their variations of pro offenses.

Tom Brady has had multiple OCs. So did Peyton. Big Ben, Rivers, Stafford, Eli, etc, etc.

I do want to be clear about something. I am not saying Baker is a system qb. I was just wondering about it. He didn't play well in Haley's offense. He did play well in Freddie's adaption of Haley's offense. He did not play well in Freddie's offense, which was really a BA offense.

I look at some of the pro-type QBs who have played well in Haley's and BA's offenses and one has to wonder if the scheme was the problem or was it the qb?

Baker got zero reps with the first team in Haley's offense until he came in cold on national TV and beat the Jets to break Hue's losing streak. Rookie QB...on a 1-31 team coming off of the prior years...no reps with the first team...I think it's aggressive to say he didn't play well in Haley's offense.

Baker played well in Freddie's version of Haley's offense and did so with Zeitler in from of him, Fells blocking and catching at TE and Higgins as his go-to guy. None of those guys were here or a factor in...

Freddie's offense that was so bad and player prep so lacking that I don't see how any analysis of the 2019 offense can be rated/valued/debated without a huge asterisk laying out the dysfunction and incompetence that was in abundance.

Higgins was not his "go to guy" in 2018....

Landry had 81 receptions for 976 yards. Njoku had 56 receptions for 639 yards. Duke Johnson had 47 receptions and Calloway had 43 receptions.

Higgins ranked 5th in 2018 with 39 receptions. That's not your "go to guy".

Just a guess, but I think that if you filter results down for after Baker became QB and after Freddie started calling the plays, you might see it skew a little more toward Higgins. I have no idea how or where you can actually filter that easily, though. Probably just have to look at individual game stats and add them by hand.

While watching it, it sure seemed like Higgins was definitely the safety valve the second half of that season.

Out of all that I posted, you came away with a debate about whether Higgins was a "go-to" guy or not. My goodness.

I could have questioned more but that was the most obvious and clear misstatement.

He started 13 games and played a lot in a 14th. A slight change? Maybe, but not enough to change the overall picture.

It isn't the total number of games, but the way the play calling and targeting changed when Freddie took over from Haley. The offense and how it was used changed a lot.