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Excellent post and very true... Sad part is, people around the board like to deflect all of RAC's shortcomings and pin it ALL on lack of talent and the usual excuses... One thing I would like to ask EO and DDub... IF RAC is such defensive genius, why didn't he chose a Defensive coordinator that had a similar mind as his own... IMHO, Grantham hasn't been able to get our defense to improve in any category since he has been here... As a fan, I would expect our "Defensive Genius" of a HC to offer some assitance/guidance to Grantham so he can get this defense turned around... He SUCKS at chosing coordinators but it really isn't an indictment against him.. I would just expect him to be able to pass on his "genius"  to his coaches... The lack of talent excuse is failing fast and our guys are truly playing below where they should be... Is it scheme? Lack of Coaching? My guess is somewhere in between...
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My point was not that Carson wasn't innovative...although one article doesn't make it so Peen. But I'll give you the fact that he was innovative...again not from an article but from what I saw from his defenses...I don't need no stinking article to tell me so.
But here is where I disagree with you - When you hate RAC to the point to state as fact that he is not Innovative and therefore inferior to Carson. That just is not true. Again I don't need no stinkin article to tell me so. Can't you tell from watching him as a DC??? Did you not watch all those Playoff games leading to SBs what was their record in the playoffs just amazing! And they had more than their share of injuries...yet he was innovative enough to not only get by but dominate.
JMHO
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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"I'd say that's getting pretty close."
Too bad we aren't talking about horse shoes  lol 
joking around with you...but its all in what you consider interpretation of "nearly as close" - my point with RAC and his innovative Defensive mind  they would never lose a playoff game not get close to a championship. As for me nearly as close would have been making into the SB and then losing. But thats just semantics...my point was not to debate what is close or not...My point was to state that they dominated offensive jaugernauts with far less in their till than what they had last season.
JMHO
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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Can't you tell from watching him as a DC???
Here's the problem for some on this subject.
When RAC was a DC (for the first time) here with the Browns, the Browns were losing... (to be expected with the talent we had to work with)
then he goes to NE and is the DC there. But here's the problem, Belichick will always get the credit,, not RAC. So RAC says "He let me do it all" and those of us that are open minded just take it at face value..
Those that don't care for RAC to whatever degree are just not buying it. It really is that simple.
RAC will NEVER be taken seriously until he WINS as a HC.... this is his shot and I'm sure he's more then well aware of it.
Too bad really, because by all accounts, he's a smart guy who really knows Defense....
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Excellent post and very true... Sad part is, people around the board like to deflect all of RAC's shortcomings and pin it ALL on lack of talent and the usual excuses...
One thing I would like to ask EO and DDub... IF RAC is such defensive genius, why didn't he chose a Defensive coordinator that had a similar mind as his own... IMHO, Grantham hasn't been able to get our defense to improve in any category since he has been here... As a fan, I would expect our "Defensive Genius" of a HC to offer some assitance/guidance to Grantham so he can get this defense turned around... He SUCKS at chosing coordinators but it really isn't an indictment against him.. I would just expect him to be able to pass on his "genius" to his coaches...
The lack of talent excuse is failing fast and our guys are truly playing below where they should be... Is it scheme? Lack of Coaching? My guess is somewhere in between...
We could start our own little club...Rish, crazyotto, and DS44...what could we call ourselves?...haha...
Ddub, you make some very good arguments, and you are obviously very intelligent. What gets me is the manner in which you make those arguments. Everything you say is nothing BUT speculation yet you pass those ideas off as facts. They are your opinion, nothing else.
You base that opinion on your belief that RAC is a good head coach who will prove it given enough time and enough talent. It is your opinion again that there is either not enough talent, not enough experienced talent, and that RAC hasn't had enough time to turn this thing around. Hey, it sounds valid to me. Guess what? IT'S STILL JUST AN OPINION.
But since you try to pass if off as fact, you completely try to discredit those that have an opinion that is different than yours because you believe the foundation that you are basing your opinion on are facts. Guess what? The 'not enough talent', 'not enough exprienced talent', and 'not enough time to turn this thing around' are all OPINIONS too.
At the end of the day, you'll be able to say 'I told you so' if RAC turns this thing around. Maybe that will make you feel good. I know if RAC turns this thing around I'll feel great because all I want at the end of the day is for our beloved Browns to be winners.
But the FACTS are RAC has done some good things and some not so good things. He is deserving of criticism of the bad things, and he is deserving of the praise of the good things.
But from what I can gather from your posts is that you never leave the option open that RAC just may not be a good head coach. That is a very real possibility. Do we know yet? No, I don't think so. But I would say it's 50/50 right now...NOT the given you seem to make it out to be.
If I've misinterpreted you, I apologize. Maybe your whole argument is he just needs more time before a final conclusion can be drawn. But sometimes I just get the feeling that you really believe RAC is a great coach, and you seem to be trying to force that opinion on others.
Again, I could be wrong, but this is what I think when I read your posts.
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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I hear ya... What I find odd is that the majority of the people that find fault in our view of things are geographically close to the situation... I think it has more to do with being fed the hometown news that we do not get... You in Vegas, Toad in Texas, Peen in Tennessee and me in Germany... We have to rely on things that we see with our own eyes with what little bit of Browns we get fed to us through the national telecasts...
At any rate, I wish like hell that Ddub is right and I am dead wrong... In the end, no one would give a damn as we would all be too happy to bicker and nitpick over the little things...
As far as Sunday is concerned, I expect the "lack of talent excuse" to be blatently obvious on the field... Just want to see us not make it an embarrassment...
And in closing, RAC needs to plant his foot up Grantham's ass quickly... This defense plays WAY too poor for the personnel that we have.. The offense is there... The line, Stud RB, WR, and TE... We really aren't as devoid of talent as many of the "I RAC'ies" like to claim us to be...
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I don't need no stinking article to tell me so.
You said you didn't get it, and another poster told me to quit posting opinion, to give some examples, so I posted some information I though would satisfy you......but it doesn't....I guess nothing will satisfy you then...I don't know what else to do other than say good -day.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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U wanna know why u guys get criticized ... well its real simple ... u guys are as entitled to your opinions as anyone else .. FACT IS that your opinions REEK OF NO UNDERSTANDING AT ALL OF THE GAME ... NONE ... NADA .. ZERO ... u and Rish and peenie have questioned us saying your FOS cause of the "talent" level on D and thats just "opinion" .. well NO IT ISN'T .. at least not if u have a clue ... I mean its PATHETIC ... Peenie has the lack of football knowledge to say " now that RAC's prep is improving" .. *LOL* .. this guys been doing the same prep for YEARS ... what do u think he all of a sudden over the last month learned how to study film and spot weaknesses or he all of a sudden learned how to exploit them .. *LOL* .. oh wait . let me guess .. he is giving better pre game speeches .. cause thats what really wins football games ...  and this is from a guy who is firmly in the "I have no clue how good a HC RAC is or will be" camp ... and i also live a long ways from c-town and get no local press .. as for the TALENT ... lets look .. shall we ... TW is o doubt an improvement over Jason Fisk .. but hes still WASHED UP for the most part ... he is one of the worst NT'S in Footbal at this point .. he has NO LATERAL movement .. can't penetrate and is more often that not blocked by one guy ... Roye .. another one past his prime ... LOVE ROYE but he has seen better days ... NOT AN UPGRADE ... R. Smith ... havent seen enough to really tell .. but he has to be an upgrade .. question is how much .... so up front we have improved at NT but still are SEVERELY LACKING ... we have declined at LDE and improved at RDE ... at LBer Dra is Dra .. hes a below avg. LBer in this league .. and hasnt improved much if at all since day 1 in the league .. KW is an improvement in the pass D cause he can rush the passer ... he is a LIABILITY against the RUN .... a big liability ... hes YOUNG and LEARNING ..... appearantly guys like U think he should just know everyting from day 1 and be a STUD at everything .. DQ again is an improvement .... he is also YOUNG and LEARNING .... he has picked u pretty good ont he run and holds his gap responsibilites very well (am i losing any of u yet .. i know this is deep stuff .. *L*) ... he also tackles pretty good ... then theres Peak .. see KW except hes not young or as good a pass rusher .... ONE DIMENSIONAL .... so all in all up front we do have more talent but still are SOLELY LACKING in anyone that would help stop the run .... Gee I wonder why we still struggle against the run .. oh wait ... I know .. it must be RAC SUCKS .... anyone would be able to form this group into a much better run stuffing unit than before even though the TALENT SAYS DIFFERENTLY .... heres a little tidbit for u all ... if u wanna actually watch the games and learn sumptin ..watch when Willie comes back ... that SIDE will be better agaisnt the run than it is now cause he UNDERSTANDS his responsibilities agaisnt the run and still has the ABILITLY to make plays .. do we really need to go over the secondary witch consists of a TRUE ROOKIE ... a 2nd year guy making his first starts a 3rd year guy starting for year 2 ... and the GRIZZLY VET of the group a 4th year guy starting about hos 20th game due to injuries (that is purely a guess .. *L*) .. RAC SUCKS ... any decent D coach would have us at least in the mid 20's even though the TALENT is either not there yet or RAW as a chaffed babies ass .... seriously ... what do u guys expect from him????? what???? he is coming to a gun fight with a butter knife when it comes to our D this year .. your opinions are a joke .. thats why U get ridiculed .. at least from me .. otto .. your allowed to criticize anytime u like .. there is no rules on how soon u can show everyone how little knowledge of the game u have ..
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I agree with you diam...
Rac is not doing anything different than he did year one I'm sure.. He's maybe learned more about coaching responsibilties, but as far as preaching to his players.. EXACT SAME!!!
its the players, and its how they execute.. SIMPLE!
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If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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You can take the talent aspect out of the equation if you'd like. I focused on that because that seems to be ddub's focus. There are other factors that go into determining whether or not someone thinks this guy or that guy is a good head coach.
Really, the basic question is this: Do you think RAC has done the best he could with the decisions that are in his control as well as with the decisions that are out of his control? It's his job to make sound decisions for the ones that fall squarely on his shoulders. It's also his job to work with the decisions made by others and do the best he can with it.
Take stats, records, talent out of the equation.
From where I stand that's all I'm really looking at. And I think the answer is 'no'. I think he could have done a much better job than he's been doing up to this point overall.
However, RAC is still learning on the job...I think that much is indisputable. It's not fair to say either way right now if he's the long-term answer or not.
We all just have to wait and see to find out.
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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You have this opinion that some of us "RAC Realists" think the dude just completely sucks ass and is unqualified as a HC... If I am understanding you wrong in advance, I apologize... IF that is what you think, then you have me mistaken for someone else so let me explain myself to you since we haven't had this discussion before... I have questioned RAC's HC abilities for the following... Some of it is subjective and I can admit that but it is the way I see it... He chose to keep Robo much to the chagrin of Verse and a few other board regulars and our receivers never seemed to progress... Braylon now seems to run better routes and has his head in the game... Could be pure coincidence but we do have a new offense in place... He chose friendship over ability with Mo... When things clearly were dysfunctional with our offense, it took the GM stepping in for RAC to fire Mo... The Frye Fiasco... He had a player that clearly wasn't getting things done and didn't have the talent in himself to move the offense... Yet RAC thought enough of Frye to name him the starter in route to an idiotic coin toss that in part hindered our gameplan for Opening Day... In your mind, I may not understand football but I do know enough that the starter gets the 1st team reps in the week leading up to gameday... If the guy sucked enough in the game to pull him after a Quarter and a half, wouldn't common sense dictate that the guy wasn't the best man to take the field? And for the record, I 100% agreed with him pulling him from the game... I just think he SHOULD have been able to identify in pre-season and practice that he wasn't the right guy to start... The penalties, confusion by the offense and defense and clock management are other issues I have had with him in the past... You took the time to go through the players on defense... I agree with many of the things you say when you speak of players past their prime... I do however think it is the job of a coach/coordinator to "tweak" the players to get them to line up right (Grantham's job) and play the right gap responsibilities as well as helping them to improve their block shedding techniques.. I believe that if you have a guy that is a specialist in an area such as RAC is with Defense, you would see him step in when needed to offer the right advice to "right the ship." I would furthermore expect to see a coach pick a guy that shares the same vision for a unit as he does... I strongly doubt that this is a Defense that RAC wanted to see from Grantham... Don't expect you to see things from my point of view though as I clearly must digress to a much more knowledgeable football god as the likes of people that share your opinion... 
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However, RAC is still learning on the job...I think that much is indisputable. It's not fair to say either way right now if he's the long-term answer or not.
We all just have to wait and see to find out.
at the end of the day we pretty much agree ... that is my stance ... we need MORE INFO before we can start FORMING CONCLUSIONS ...
i would be curious as to what these "decisions" are ... cause w/o knowing what they are ... i have no clue if i agree with U or not ...
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IF RAC is such defensive genius, why didn't he chose a Defensive coordinator that had a similar mind as his own... IMHO, Grantham hasn't been able to get our defense to improve in any category since he has been here...
As Diam has already pointed out, we are still weak up front on D. Our coordinator cannot go out there and play da game. He needs improvements on the DL first and foremost.
Our O was totally inept until we got GUYS that could play the game on the OL. Now that we have a few, all of a sudden we're not so inept on O. Our DL is as important to the D as the OL is to the O. DB's cannot cover forever. (I hope to God that Tom Brady doesn't embarass us 'cuz he's hell when he can just sit back there for as long as he wants)
If Savage is true to his word he will be attacking the DL during this offseason and it will be NEXT year that we will truely get to evaluate the scheme. This year we cannot pressure the QB. If it were me, I might try a corner blitz a little more often 'cuz the guys coming up the middle just fall into a black hole.
![[Linked Image from members.cox.net]](http://members.cox.net/flyinc5/smallsigpics/frcburnout.gif) AL 29 76 14 R_K
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Aplology accepted .. *L* ... all i do is take what u all post and either agree with it, question it or rip it apart ... 98%of the fire rac posts simply states he sucks and we should be better .. *LOL* .. thats a pretty vague statement ... u guys were harping on Talent in this thread and how guys like me use it as an excuse ... and if hes such a great D guy why is ours not better .. so i chose to ACTUALLY DISCUSS the TALENT he has to work with ... I know that makes it hard for guys like Peenie to defend their BS but i do appreciatte your response ... Quote:
He chose to keep Robo much to the chagrin of Verse and a few other board regulars and our receivers never seemed to progress... Braylon now seems to run better routes and has his head in the game... Could be pure coincidence but we do have a new offense in place...
I agree he should have 86ed Robo the day he was hired .. I have no clue how that went down though .. dotn forget Randy may have "persuaded" Opie and RAC to give him a chance cause of what he'd been through and did for us after bOtch left ..
plus I have no clue what was avaialble the first year ... remember we were more than likely the last staff assembled cause of having to wait for RAC ... after year 1 he should have been gone .. NO DOUBT ...
as for Brey ... theres a bunch of reasons for his improvement ... and it comes from inside Brey and his getting healthy/experience and coaching .. well guess what .. RAC HIRED THE GUY RESPONSIBLE FOR THE COACHING PART ...
and BTW .. I LOVED THE CHANDLER HIRE ..
so if u wanna blast him for Robo U need to tip your hat at the Chandler hire ..
u can't have it both ways ..
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He chose friendship over ability with Mo... When things clearly were dysfunctional with our offense, it took the GM stepping in for RAC to fire Mo...
NO WAY he chose friendship over ability ... NO WAY .... did he keep him to long .. I'll give u that ... I beleive MO was in over his head .. no clue why waiting till the end of the year to fire him made such a huge diff ... to me it was IRRELIVENT ... but to each their own ... at the end of the day thats a black mark on RAC ..
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The Frye Fiasco... He had a player that clearly wasn't getting things done and didn't have the talent in himself to move the offense... Yet RAC thought enough of Frye to name him the starter in route to an idiotic coin toss that in part hindered our gameplan for Opening Day...
*LOL* .... and if DA (actually when) he starts stinking up the joint U guys will be calling for RAC's head for letting Frye go ..
EVERYONE said Frye won the QB comp .. EVERYONE .. and if u saw sumptin in DA that said he was the man in TC .. GOD BLESS U cause NO ONE ELSE DID ....
he not only made the RIGHT decision he made the ONLY DECISION ..
this one here REEKS OF HINDSIGHT being 20/20 .. and u know it ..
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And for the record, I 100% agreed with him pulling him from the game... I just think he SHOULD have been able to identify in pre-season and practice that he wasn't the right guy to start...
HOW was he supposed to identify it??? NO ONE ELSE DID .. take it one step further and ADMIT U agreed with Frye being the starter .. i have NO CLUE how anyone could ahve wanted DA to start ... he was WORSE that Frye in pre-season ...
I gotta run .. ND's on ... will get to the rest after this nightmare is over .. *L* ..
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As far as my Offensive comments regarding Mo, I was referring (without geting indepth I might add) to the formations not matching the plays, his exclusion of Davidson and lastly not allowing the QB to audible... The talent was not there for sure but the issues I just stated were widely published after Mo's ousting...
for the defense side of the ball, we are not close to there yet and I have no doubts that Phil will be true to his word to address it... The point I was making is that RAC was known at NE for improvising a hole that he had... What he was able to do with the Pats D was nothing short of amazing... We have players that have been in this system now going on year three but still manage to make the same mistakes... Either they are not coachable or the coaches aren't playing to their strengths... I have no idea which opinion is right but the issues go deper than talent IMHO...
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Good post and I agree with most of it... I was not one of the sheep that even wanted Frye around... Didn't want him when he was drafted and maintained that opinion the last few years... Hell, I even had a nice BQ sig. on the old board that NAS made up after the 06 draft... I am not like the 99% of the posters that wanted BQ to sit and learn this year... The kid is smart and by far the best QB on this roster and it isn't even close... In DA's defense, what he has done the past few weeks is nothing short of a miracle... It will appease the "let BQ sit out the year and learn crowd" as well as the select few of us that want him in just because we are over achieving... Quote:
gotta run .. ND's on ... will get to the rest after this nightmare is over .. *L* .
Good luck with that... 
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The issues MIGHT go deeper than tallent. That we don't know yet. How much better do you think our D would be had we drafted Richard Seymore instead of Big waste of Money? Remember, we COULD'VE had him, he was there, but Butch Davis knew better than our player board which had Seymore rated higher. I just bet that with a better DL, even our LB's look better...and maybe even pressure the QB once in a while when they blitz. I don't know enough about what Grantham is doing wrong to question him. As for Romeo, I've got his QB coin flip on the negative side of the ledger. His handling of the red flag has not been stellar but a coach needs help from the booth in that area. - I think that I should be hired as the booth red flag guy. I'm not allowed to watch what's going on on the field...I just have to watch the TV feed and if I see something I immediatly state it. Just fly me out there and feed me.
AL 29 76 14 R_K
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As I have stated many times before, I WANT to see the man succeed... Re-building sucks and I want him to have EVERY opportunity to turn this thing around... He doesn't need to rant down the sidelines and such to get my support, just keep showing steady improvement in the weaker areas and going to 2 division wins is a damned good start...
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Maybe your whole argument is he just needs more time before a final conclusion can be drawn.
You could have saved yourself a lot of typing since you've identified exactly what I've been saying in that one sentence. But then you'd have denied me the opportunity to write another essay.
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You base that opinion on your belief that RAC is a good head coach who will prove it given enough time and enough talent.
...But from what I can gather from your posts is that you never leave the option open that RAC just may not be a good head coach.
...But sometimes I just get the feeling that you really believe RAC is a great coach, and you seem to be trying to force that opinion on others.
First, I'll quote myself from earlier in this thread...
" I'm not saying that RAC is now or even will develop into a great head coach. There is no way of knowing that in advance. Coaches get called great after the fact. Do great things as a head coach and then you get to be called a great head coach.
But there is a concept of giving a guy a chance. "
I'm not sure what you've read that makes you think I believe RAC is a great head coach. If you perceive my passion on the subject as evidence to that accord then you have misinterpreted my statements.
My passion on the subject is not linked to any degree that I already believe RAC is and/or will become a great head coach. I have absolutely no way of knowing that at this point. Never on this board have I defended RAC from the premise that he is a good coach. I see no tangable evidence yet that he is a bad coach, but niether do I see evidence that he is a great coach yet.
Sure he has made mistakes. Who doesn't? But I haven't seen yet where he has made a mistake that has cost us a victory. I could defend some of his mistakes, and I have. I could also whine and complain about some of them that I couldn't defend, but I don't.
What I have defended and said many times, and this is the center of my arguements every single time, is that it is far too early to pass that judgement at this point. And I am most passionate that I would surely hate to give up on any head coach before he has had an even chance to get the job done.
Have we learned nothing as Browns fans by changing head coaches; by startting over? If you started over everything you do when you are only half way through it you'll never get anything done. We have already started once (1999) and started over twice since. And where are we now?
We are yet again in the middle of a start-over and some are ready for another.
It seems some of you guys don't believe there is any learning curve to playing in the NFL. That a coach can simply, somehow get them to play beyond their experience.
It is known and stated by every expert in the league and media that you can't accurately judge a draft until the third year following it. It takes that long for the good ones to really begin to play at a high quality level. That would be especially true if they are not on an established, competitive team surrounded by proven veterans. And our young defensive players are not. They are surrounded by inexperienced players just like themselves who are learning and gaining experience.
We have a group of linebackers just now in the first quarter of their second year. They have one season under their belts. Even though you can't fairly judge a draft until after the third season, some here proclaim that these guys with one year and four games under their belt would be playing at a higher level if not for the head coach. That is completely ignoring the learning curve and their natural progression as players.
We have a safety beginning his third year on the team, but starting for the first time. We have a raw rookie starting at cornerback. The only real veteran players on defense, other than the defensive line, more on that later, is McGinest, Davis, Peek and Bodden. Willie has only played one game this year. Peek has been not practicing and playing with a foot injury and Bodden has been playing injured but had shown he's getting healthy just last week. So our veterans have not exactly been in a position to make up or cover for the young guys.
These young players need to grow into their roles. They need to gain experience. Until they do they will struggle and no amount of coaching will have them playing above their level of experience.
For some reason, that seems both simple, logical and a natural progression to me.
Why is that so hard to understand for some?
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Everything you say is nothing BUT speculation yet you pass those ideas off as facts. They are your opinion, nothing else.
...Guess what? The 'not enough talent', 'not enough exprienced talent', and 'not enough time to turn this thing around' are all OPINIONS too.
So all of that is nothing but speculation? Really?
The fact is that there is a learning curve in the NFL whether some folks want it to be that way or not. Savage himself said that this is " the year of growth ". In his "perfect world" he would like us all to watch these players grow without expecting them to be playing as seasoned vets just yet.
So when you compile the facts that our defense is full of young players, (that's a fact!), that young players don't have a lot of experience, (that's a fact too!) and Savage calls this the "year of growth", (telling us the fact that these players are young and inexpereienced), then you just might be able to conclude that it's too early to expect major improvement.
Now, factor in that the defensive line is bad. We all knew it would be. Who didn't know our defensive line was going to be a liability? No surprise there. It certainly doesn't help the cause any. It only makes it harder on the young guys and it's already hard enough.
Savage admitted in a recent press conference that the defensive line is the next unit to be addressed. That is an admission that he knows we are severely lacking there. But then we all knew that already. Didn't we? But still there are those who can't understand why they aren't playing better. Here's clue: because they can't!
Roye can't stay on the field. Ted is what he is, one of the oldest players on the field throughout our entire schedule, who has certainly lost more than a step and was denied a starting role already once this season by RAC, his old buddy. Shawn Smith, who's never played in a 3-4 defense, was supposed to compete for Ted's spot at nose tackle, but they've been forced to play him at defensive end for Roye. And Robaire Smith who is a slight upgrade overall, but one guy can't make much of a difference across the entire line.
The depth behind the DL starters are either young and inexperienced or one-dimensional players who are below average to average at best.
So we have inexperienced youth or injured veterans at the linebacker and defensive backs positions. In front of them is a defensive line abundant in age and diminishing in their skills with below average depth behind them.
WHY is it so hard to understand why our defense struggles?
It is not so easy as to just blame the head coach. It is just simply not that simple.
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At the end of the day, you'll be able to say 'I told you so' if RAC turns this thing around. Maybe that will make you feel good. I know if RAC turns this thing around I'll feel great because all I want at the end of the day is for our beloved Browns to be winners.
I will feel good. But not because I can say "I told you so". That means nothing to me. You've never seen me post anything even remotely akin to bragging about being right about anything before hand.
There are many of you who, if "RAC turns this thing around", will think that RAC has finally gotten his act together. But more to the truth, it will be because our young team will have gained the experience needed to understand and carryout the assignments that he has been giving them all along. It will be because the young players, in their natural progression, will get better.
The learning curve is long. The more they play, the shorter it gets. In time they will reach the point where they can contend with anyone. After that they could potentally go on to become probowlers.
It takes time.
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We could start our own little club...Rish, crazyotto, and DS44...what could we call ourselves?...haha...
Don't tempt me. 
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Quote:
We have players that have been in this system now going on year three but still manage to make the same mistakes...
This isn't meant to call you out or to talk down to you as I don't know enough to do that nor do I have the right to do that to anyone and I always try not too even if sometimes I sound as though I am...but...
Name them.
And count the actual game experience they have.
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Quote:
We have players that have been in this system now going on year three but still manage to make the same mistakes...
Given that we have only 6 guys on this team from Pre RAC and Savage,,, and 4 are on D (roye, Jones, Bodden and A. Davis), and 2 are on O (heiden and dawson) Which of those is still making the same mistakes over and over again.
How many of those guys that Savage brought in during the his first year are still here? I don't know and I'm not taking the time to look it up, but what I am trying to demonstrate to you is that your blanket statement about players making the same mistakes over and over again can't be taken all that seriously given that there are a NOT a lot of guys that have the 3 years in the system.
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We have Andra Davis, Chaun Thompson, Sean Jones, Leigh Bodden, Brodney Pool and IRRC this is year three for Simon Fraser... Not going to get into how many games each started and against who... Waste of time for both of us...
I do know that this is the 1st year for Brod to start, Jones is pretty damned good and Bodden is currently our #1 CB... So that leaves us Chaun, Dra and Fraser... Fraser doesn't have enough talent to beat out the current starters but he is good depth...
Davis still takes himself out of plays and Thompson lost his starting position... Our defensive schemes aren't that exotic and it is the little things that these players don't have down yet... Things like lack of talent is what bumped Fraser to the bench, but we cannot get our starting ILB to improve on taking himself out of plays, geting locked on by the blockers much less our former 2nd RD Speedster??
And another thing, Leon Williams is going to be a FORCE by next season... Chances are that he will be the one that gets Dra Bumped to the bench...
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Ok,, so which ones are making the same mistakes over and over again? Please include the guys that Savage brought in the first year?
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Not going to get into how many games each started and against who... Waste of time for both of us...
It's not a waste of time if you are going to say they're in their third year in this defense and are still making the same mistakes.
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Andra Davis, Chaun Thompson, Sean Jones, Leigh Bodden, Brodney Pool and IRRC this is year three for Simon Fraser
Davis is in his third year.
So is Thompson, but he's got one season as a starter and another of part-time duty. He doesn't have the same game experience as a starter. Plus, he obviously isn't as talented as the ones who have pushed him to a backup role.
Jones played some partime in '05, and many thought he may be a bust, (a testiment to the fact that there's a learning curve and maybe we shouldn't be so quick to judge), he started in '06 so he's got 20 games under his belt. That's one year and 4 games. He'd need another 16 games of experience to be "in his third year".
Bodden is in his third year but missed a lot of playing time last year, but I'll put him on the list.
As you say, Pool played some part-time last year and is now in his first year.
Fraiser is depth and plays as a backup. His actual game experience is minimal compared to those we really count on to be significant.
So from all those, only Davis and Bodden are really in their third year in this defense. That is, having three years of game experience in it. Practice and the bench hardly qualifies. It's playing experience they need in order to learn to minimize the mistakes and succeed.
I agree completely about Davis taking himself out of plays. But we have Williams pushing him and soon I believe Leon will push Davis to the bench. I don't really see Bodden making the same mistakes, but he may if you're seeing it.
So, where are all these guys who are in the third year of this defense and keep making the same mistakes?
There aren't many with more than a year and a half experience. And for some of them, that is part time in a backup role.
And I agree completely about Leon Williamns being a force next season. And that is my point all along. It will take until next season, after this season's game experience, to really come on. It's the same with all of them who are inexperienced.
Williams is not quite the force yet, but once he gets more experience under his belt he will make an impact.
Hopefully the same goes for DQ, Wimbley, Pool, Wright and I believe Jones will do much better, like he did last season, once the two young DB's back there with him become consistant.
Once these guys get some real game experience under their belt they'll make less mistakes and be more consistant. That will enable the coaches to give them more "exotic" schemes to further improve the defense.
As you said about Williams, I'm hoping for the entire unit to come on sometime next season as a unit to be reckoned with. The following year will not be "the year of growth", it will be "the year of coming on strong!"
The DL this season is a lost cause. Fraiser included.
Next season I believe Savage will do to the DL as he did the OL. It will take two years to have the players in place. But the first year will improve it vastly.
And their learning curve is not nearly as long as it is for the LB's and DB's. So even next season should get much better in run stoppage and protecting the LB's early on. As the season goes on they'll gel as a unit and be better.
Listen, I'm not trying to discourage anyone from having an opinion.
But, we have our General Manager telling us that this is the year of "growth", and we have our Defensive Coordinator describing his guys in a manner that sounds like they are in the early stages of their progression in understanding the schemes and concepts.
When I add to that my own experience watching the games and the players as they've come and gone through the years and I've seen for myself by watching some of those players grow and develop into really good ones over the course of a few seasons I come away believing that all we need at this stage is to be patient and allow these young players to grow and develop.
Instead of looking for an easy fix or a person to blame by pointing at the head coach and his assistants, I find it more, common sense wise, to expect that young players need to grow and develop and as they do it will all get better.
To me it just seems to be common sense and a natural progression.
Plus, it's a lot more enjoyable to focus on those young players and watch them improve instead of focusing on the head coach and wondering why the players aren't playing better.
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Although we may ultimately disagree on RAC...I gotta say that your argument makes a heck of a lot of sense.
I want you to be correct...I really do.
You've got me thinking a little more 'patiently'.
BTW, your take is much, much better than the 'continuity' angle. I hate that because you never know if you are continuing in the wrong direction...usually until it's too late. And I understand that the 'continuity group' - at least those who seem to post accordingly - include your points as the biggest aspect of their 'continuity' argument. (Did that make ANY sense?)
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Made perfect sense to me.....
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Thanks Shep...sometimes I'm not so sure if I made sense or just used too many words.  Note revised sig...courtesy of ddubia's posts on the matter. 
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Quote:
And I understand that the 'continuity group' - at least those who seem to post accordingly - include your points as the biggest aspect of their 'continuity' argument. (Did that make ANY sense?)
It makes sense to me becasue I'm in the "continuity group" as well.
It all falls under that heading.
Continuity: giving them a chance to succeed, for a variety of reasons. The most improtant one being that it does take time. Unbroken time is continuity. That's what they need, not to be broken up before they've had the time to succeed.
That and our support.
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That was a good post man... Convincing too... Think that some of the HACK's at the PD and Canton Supository could use a guy like you to write for them...
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"You said you didn't get it, and another poster told me to quit posting opinion, to give some examples, so I posted some information I though would satisfy you......but it doesn't....I guess nothing will satisfy you then...I don't know what else to do other than say good -day."
Why play Lawyer with me...and just debate me on some football.
Here is the jist of the whole thing.
1. You made a statement that at least Carson was innovative as a D Coach (meaning he had a good football mind to create) and RAC surely wasn't that.
2. My entire point is that RAC is innovative.
3. But since you had no way to defend that statement and probably knew that you were 100% wrong and your ANTI-RAC bias just permeated too strong in that statement...YOU GO ON AND ON ABOUT HOW CARSON WAS INNOVATIVE AS IF THAT IS WHAT I WAS QUESTIONING YOU ON. Why cause you Lawyered up in this debate and decided to play dumb games with me.  As if since you can prove Carson was considered Innovative that makes the rest of your statement correct.
4. Notice - you didn't make one statement about RAC in this subject, Why? Cause you don't have a leg to stand on. So on and on and on about Carson, Fine he was innovative...note I never questioned you on that fact...you came up at me with putting Green in 1 techinque was innovative - I simply stated it wasn't. But Carson was innovative and developed the Cover 2 Defense to perfection. OK
But what about RAC and how can you state as fact that he was not Innovative as a Defensive Coach which is all I was correcting you on.
I wasn't debating on his HC capabilities, don't want to get into it. You simply stepped way out of bounds making up some BS crapola lie about RAC and put it out there as fact. Then you want to play Lawyer games with me and try to prove that HALF your statement was FACT so that means all your statement is FACT.
CRAPOLA
So just shove the Have a Nice Day bs... what is that your way of saying I can't debate it and you caught me in a Lawyer game?
Have a nice day ...lol
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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ddub, You know I completely missed the very direct statements where you said you weren't sure if RAC is the answer. A lot of times I skim through the very long posts ... haha... but I just took away the general gist from most of your posts that you already think RAC is a great coach and just needs time...that happens a lot on this board...misinterpretation. I usually have it happen to me, and I did it to you. My apologies. You make some compelling arguments, but can you do it in about half of the words that you normally use?...haha...seriously bro, my attention span isn't that long...or I sometimes just don't have enough time...  Keep up the good work. I like your approach to posting. Someone mentioned you've convinced them to be more patient. If we hit another bump in the road, I'll exercise more patience myself thanks to you. Although I'm going on record to say I've never been one of the zealouts that takes it to a far extreme...but I have been known to be impatient... ...and not just with football... Go Browns baby! Pats are gonna look mortal today.
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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...can you do it in about half of the words that you normally use?
Brother, if I could I would. I'm just a long-wind old bastage who feels everything needs to be in depth to be completely understood.
Probably because it takes me so long to understand for myself.
Truth is, I already use half the words I intend to.
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Always want to give a chance....Chuck?.....yeah give it a try...nice underdog story...played under the shadow of Roethlisberger...gritty....easy to like...halfway through last season convinced he had to go...this year - gone...thank you.
I've watched years of football...never coached and never assumed to know, but as stated Frye's play was evident to me.....now....
Coach Crennel?......take your first HC job with a team that's a mess and stand beside a young and unproven GM......take your lumps...coach up....try to convince the guys they have a chance each week....talk about gritty (of course, that comes with territory and he knew it).
I sit here following the Pats loss almost with a smile on my face (almost). Outmanned....yes...outplayed....for the most part...outcoached? I don't think so. Speed kills and talent wins. The Pats looked faster and no one can debate the talent difference. Short of four turnovers the game is much different. Kind of a ridiculous statement? Not really. Derek has two that are a fraction off...a hair late...the other from his arm being hit. Kellen takes a high ball...tucks..step step..strip. The worst thing I saw from Andersen is that he held the ball at times...understandable, I suppose, given the 3 picks and score.
Progression? Certainly a better 2nd half all things considered. I was willing to concede reality if we were with 10 in the 4th. Done. Part of that was self induced misses / drops form the Pats offense, but we didn't relent. Maybe that is where my near smile comes from. I never expected us to win this one. Simply be competitive.
Pittsburgh...pull a punter off the street and the avalanche begins. Oakland....very disappointing, but give them credit. Hide the linebackers underneath to take away Derek's lanes and run the ball well to show our defense for what it is.
2-3. I'll take it.
25.2 points per game. I'll take it.
Continuity...yep..I'll keep that.
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OK .. lets see here ... for starters that was a GREAT NIGHTMARE ... *L* ... Quote:
The penalties, confusion by the offense and defense and clock management are other issues I have had with him in the past...
the penalties stem from many things .... and most of ours are from LACK OF TALENT ... over the last 2 years how many false starts and holding we had on O cause our OLman were just overmatched??? PLENTY ... thats not RAC's fault ... where your UNDERMANNED penalties rise ... thats just the way it is ...
and I am curious .. are we penalized more than AVG. in the NFL .. and what kind of penalties do we get???
CONFUSION again stems from lack of TALENT and EXPERIENCE .. were a VERY VERY VERY YOUNG TEAM ....
I really hate to harp on TALENT as much as i do .. but its TRUE ....
clock management??? examples please ... I cant remember this as a major issue ..
I do however think it is the job of a coach/coordinator to "tweak" the players to get them to line up right (Grantham's job) and play the right gap responsibilities as well as helping them to improve their block shedding techniques..
it is the coaches job to do all of the above .. but it doesn't happen overnight ... if it was that easy to jsut say .. hey .. GAP INTEGRITY no team would ever have a problem with it .. unfortunatly on almost every play in every game gap responsibility is broken by someone ...
on D we have a mixture of vets at various stages of affectiveness and some young talented kids learning how to play at this level .. it will take them awhile to become a UNIT .... a D front 7 needs to GEL and learn just like the OL does ...
we'll get much better at this as the kids mature and the inaffective vets are weeded out ... its gonna take time ..... this is one are where PATIENCE PATIENCE PATIENCE is definetly needed ...
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I believe that if you have a guy that is a specialist in an area such as RAC is with Defense, you would see him step in when needed to offer the right advice to "right the ship."
theres no MAGIC FIX here ... NONE ... there is nuttin that will make TED and Roye younger or DQ or Kam more experienced ... not to mention teh secondary and its youth ...
I see alot of folks ready to throw Pool and Jones out with the bath water .. well its not neasr as bad as folks think ... there hurt by our lack of rush and their inexperience ... GIVE THEM TIME ...
just like RAC and Grantham deserve time to let our talent grow and improve ..
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I would furthermore expect to see a coach pick a guy that shares the same vision for a unit as he does... I strongly doubt that this is a Defense that RAC wanted to see from Grantham...
Interesting ... this morning on sportcenter Brady said watching film of the Browns D he saw alot of what he used to practice against when RAC was there .. so obviusly RAC is installing alot of the same basics he had in NE .. now we need to wait till he gets the TALENT ..
and RAC and Grantham both knew this was going to be a VERY TOUGH YEAR ON D ... between the aging vets and youth they knew this would be a tough year ..
there not doing a bad job just because some of u guys ahd to high of expectations ..
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Don't expect you to see things from my point of view though as I clearly must digress to a much more knowledgeable football god as the likes of people that share your opinion
No u dont .....
1. I'm the only football god ... *L*
2. U could just agree with me and be smart to ..
3. most of them are pretty clueless also .. they are just spared my wrath on the very few occasions they do agree with me .. 
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For example, a linebacker, we'll call him Andre Davis, is lined up in the middle, just a little to the right. The ball is snapped and handed off to the running back. The running back seems to be heading straight toward the center of his offensive line. Mr. Davis then, seeing the chance to "make a play", moves to his left, following the action of the ball, (where he thinks the play is going). As he does this, the running back then, "cuts back", to the hole where Andre Davis was. BAM, big, big gain for the running back.
Had Davis stayed in his gap, or been in position or carried out his assignment, he may well have tackled the running back for little to no gain. Instead, by being out of position, in the name of trying to make a play, what he did was leave a gaping hole for the running back to run through. A good running back with good vision and a cut back ability, like Jamal Lewis, will have a record setting day vs. a defense who is not disciplined enough to be in position.
Finally some others see Davis as what he is.. U know in the NE game..they had a 4th and 3..the RB gets the balls goes off tackle..and a jersey just dives into the ground... I thought: "Who was that???I need to see if it was who..." And sure enough, the ground replay showed # 54 diving right into the turf BEFORE the RB hit the hole ..and it allowed him to pick up the first down.. But of course thats Rac's fault..  For a few comments for some other posts..Not one of who sometimes defend Rac feel he is a or the perfect HC..I don't know..I see things I don' t like but I respect certain things I see.. As far as Mo goes that turned out to be a diaster but it was corrected .. Some of the offseason coaches that were brought in were upgrades.. Todd Grantham? I don't know about him..but I do know talent wise we are far from being there on defense.. It seems Phil(not Rac) looked to fix the offense..and get it right..so thats not on Rac...so Rac has had to use what is at his disposal and honestly some of those guys need to be replaced .. And they will be ..once we have a killer NT/MLB this D will improve dramatically.. The one thing that isn't being said is that he isn't losing the team, they're playing harder.. Give the man time to grow..give the team time to grow. Now Dawgstyle mentioned something thats become a myth in here.. The Frye Fiasco... He had a player that clearly wasn't getting things done and didn't have the talent in himself to move the offense... Yet RAC thought enough of Frye to name him the starter in route to an idiotic coin toss that in part hindered our gameplan for Opening Day...
O.k so he shouldn't have named Frye the starter after the QB comp, when DA didn't beat him out.. Yeah that would sit well with being honorable and fair.. Oh I can see it now how Rac is a liar and can't be trusted , so on and so forth...the Fyre supporters would be ready to hang Rac.. How many times has this been covered with the facts? But yet this is the argument the hang Rac club uses..and it has no basis in fact .. If DA had clearly beat CF out and he was still named the starter..then we'd have a issue here..
Last edited by Attack Dawg; 10/08/07 11:04 AM.
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The one thing that isn't being said is that he isn't losing the team, they're playing harder..
Very important.
He isn't losing the team, and he won't be this year, because we're about to go on a nice little run and winning cures all. 4-4 at worst when we reach the half-way mark, IMO. Maybe 5-3.
![[Linked Image from i28.photobucket.com]](http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c201/shadedog/mcenroe2.jpg) gmstrong -----------------
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Wasn't sure where to put this and a new thread did not seem appropriate...BUT...
I agree with that completely.
I saw something yesterday that I have been looking for for a long time.
A Cleveland Broiwns team that - for two weeks in row - looked like a real team with real direction. (I think I just barfed up some more crow.)
Yeah, we got beat pretty good...but...we had all the things I'm looking for...except for BQ as the starter as he IS the best QB on our roster.
We got beat by a better team...but they know we were right there with them for most of the game.
Weird...but I don't feel as bad as usual after a big loss.
Ddubia's got me thinking.
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Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum RAC: "He let me do all of it."
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