DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Palus Politicus Hydroxychloroquine: A Case Study In Bad Science

With all due respect you don't have the resources to determine whether the drug works or not. You're also not in a position or have enough knowledge to say that the drug has shown little to no efficacy. You need to be careful how you form your own opinions, don't lecture others when you're not in a position to know the info one way or another. I like how you act like an expert but unless you actually work on the study itself you only know just as much as what they release or the media decides to tell you.

I have seen several people on TV praising the drug for saving their life. If I get the virus I will try anything. I don''t want Liberals deciding for me.

Seriously?

Just move on. It’s easier.

Natural selection loves a trumpian.

"Looks like meat's back on the menu, boys..."

More deaths, no benefit from malaria drug in VA virus study
By MARILYNN MARCHIONE
yesterday

FILE - This Monday, April 6, 2020 file photo shows an arrangement of hydroxychloroquine pills in Las Vegas. According to a study released on Tuesday, April 21, 2020, the malaria drug widely touted by President Donald Trump for treating the new coronavirus showed no benefit in an analysis of its use in U.S. veterans hospitals. There were more deaths among those given hydroxychloroquine versus standard care, researchers report. (AP Photo/John Locher)
A malaria drug widely touted by President Donald Trump for treating the new coronavirus showed no benefit in a large analysis of its use in U.S. veterans hospitals. There were more deaths among those given hydroxychloroquine versus standard care, researchers reported.

The nationwide study was not a rigorous experiment. But with 368 patients, it’s the largest look so far of hydroxychloroquine with or without the antibiotic azithromycin for COVID-19, which has killed more than 171,000 people as of Tuesday.

The study was posted on an online site for researchers and has not been reviewed by other scientists. Grants from the National Institutes of Health and the University of Virginia paid for the work.


Researchers analyzed medical records of 368 male veterans hospitalized with confirmed coronavirus infection at Veterans Health Administration medical centers who died or were discharged by April 11.

About 28% who were given hydroxychloroquine plus usual care died, versus 11% of those getting routine care alone. About 22% of those getting the drug plus azithromycin died too, but the difference between that group and usual care was not considered large enough to rule out other factors that could have affected survival.

Hydroxychloroquine made no difference in the need for a breathing machine, either.

Researchers did not track side effects, but noted a hint that hydroxychloroquine might have damaged other organs. The drug has long been known to have potentially serious side effects, including altering the heartbeat in a way that could lead to sudden death.

Full Coverage: Understanding the Outbreak
Earlier this month, scientists in Brazil stopped part of a study testing chloroquine, an older drug similar to hydroxychloroquine, after heart rhythm problems developed in one-quarter of people given the higher of two doses being tested.

On Tuesday, NIH issued new treatment guidelines from a panel of experts, saying there was not enough evidence to recommend for or against chloroquine or hydroxychloroquine for COVID-19. But it also advised against using hydroxychloroquine with azithromycin because of the potential side effects.

Many doctors have been leery of the drug.

At the University of Wisconsin, Madison, “I think we’re all rather underwhelmed” at what’s been seen among the few patients there who’ve tried it, said Dr. Nasia Safdar, medical director of infection control and prevention.

Patients asked about it soon after Trump started promoting its use, “but now I think that people have realized we don’t know if it works or not” and needs more study, said Safdar, who had no role in the VA analysis.

The NIH and others have more rigorous tests underway.

yet trump knows all... pffft

Well he's not a doctor but he's heard great things.

Drink pine tar, gunpowder, and turpentine drops in willow bark tea because it's good for what ails ya!

I've never seen so many liberals HOPING for outbreaks in red states so they can give them the big finger of I told you so...

It's pathetic and disgusting and shows the utter lack of humanity that the left has and the depths to which they are willing to sink to win a political argument...

It's all over the place, the media elite are doing it, their much-beloved Hollywood celebs are doing it, all the way down to your garden variety hate-filled leftist doing it.

They are quick to tell you, "Well, I don't actually hope anybody dies..." Yea, you just hope for an outbreak because nothing TRUMPS your desire to be right.

Trump said Hydro showed promise and people should consider talking to their doctor about taking it and the left went on a rampage.. hoping it wouldn't work.. because they would rather have people suffer than have to admit Trump was right...

It would be funny if it wasn't so sad... democrat in congress admitted they are using the second stimulus plan for small business because they think they have leverage to get their own initiatives in it.. [censored] the small business owners in this country, just [censored] 'em.. we have political points to score here.

small business owners should've had 3-6 months of savings, ya know like yall tell us leechers and takers all the time.

oh well.

Saying people are doing stupid things that will cause the virus to spread isn't the same thing as wanting it to happen. We wish all people from both parties would do the responsible thing. Yet obviously they aren't. At least that's my perspective.

Democrats are using it? You mean to get more money for hospitals and testing? Those awful democrats!

I've stopped paying much attention because there is a lot of BS - both ways on some topics.

However - the ONLY things I have seen posted about Red/Blue states and cities etc ..... is from the Trump supporters producing a list of places with high CV numbers and saying 'why are Democrat run and cities/states' the worst hit.

Now on the one hand you can say - hey it's a factual based question ... but maybe there was something of an agenda behind that? Isn't it expected that the most cases will come from metro cities with dense populations ... many/most of which lean left? Why or how is that relevant to discussing or solving the issues?

If I missed posts or debates about this topic or something relevant ... apologies. And last thing - regardless left, right or Trumpian, I don't think anyone is willing illness and death on any part of the population regardless of how heated the debate.

j/c...

Doctor Says He Was Removed From Federal Post After Questioning Hydroxychloroquine Treatment

The doctor who led the federal agency involved in developing a coronavirus vaccine said on Wednesday that he was removed from his post after he pressed for a rigorous vetting of a coronavirus treatment embraced by President Trump. The doctor said that science, not “politics and cronyism” must lead the way.

Dr. Rick Bright was abruptly dismissed this week as the director of the Department of Health and Human Services’ Biomedical Advanced Research and Development Authority, or BARDA, and as the deputy assistant secretary for preparedness and response.

Instead, he was given a narrower job at the National Institutes of Health. “I believe this transfer was in response to my insistence that the government invest the billions of dollars allocated by Congress to address the Covid-19 pandemic into safe and scientifically vetted solutions, and not in drugs, vaccines and other technologies that lack scientific merit,” he said in a statement to The Times’s Maggie Haberman.

“I am speaking out because to combat this deadly virus, science — not politics or cronyism — has to lead the way,” he said.

The White House declined to comment. A spokeswoman for Alex Azar, the HHS secretary, did not immediately respond to an email seeking comment. The medical publication Stat reported on Tuesday that Dr. Bright had clashed with Bob Kadlec, the assistant health secretary for preparedness and response.

Dr. Bright, who noted that his entire career had been spent in vaccine development both in and outside of government, has led BARDA since 2016.

In the statement, he said: “My professional background has prepared me for a moment like this — to confront and defeat a deadly virus that threatens Americans and people around the globe. To this point, I have led the government’s efforts to invest in the best science available to combat the Covid-19 pandemic.

“Unfortunately, this resulted in clashes with H.H.S. political leadership, including criticism for my proactive efforts to invest early into vaccines and supplies critical to saving American lives. I also resisted efforts to fund potentially dangerous drugs promoted by those with political connections,” he said.

Dr. Bright, who is a career official and not a political appointee, pointed specifically to the initial efforts to make chloroquine and hydroxychloroquine widely available before it was scientifically tested for efficacy with the coronavirus.

“Specifically, and contrary to misguided directives, I limited the broad use of chloroquine and hydroxychloroquine, promoted by the administration as a panacea, but which clearly lack scientific merit,” he said.

“While I am prepared to look at all options and to think ‘outside the box’ for effective treatments, I rightly resisted efforts to provide an unproven drug on demand to the American public,” Dr. Bright said, describing what ultimately happened: “I insisted that these drugs be provided only to hospitalized patients with confirmed Covid-19 while under the supervision of a physician.

“These drugs have potentially serious risks associated with them, including increased mortality observed in some recent studies in patients with Covid-19.

“Sidelining me in the middle of this pandemic and placing politics and cronyism ahead of science puts lives at risk and stunts national efforts to safely and effectively address this urgent public health crisis,” Dr. Bright said.

“I will request that the inspector general of the Department of Health and Human Services investigate the manner in which this administration has politicized the work of BARDA and has pressured me and other conscientious scientists to fund companies with political connections and efforts that lack scientific merit,” he said. “Rushing blindly towards unproven drugs can be disastrous and result in countless more deaths. Science, in service to the health and safety of the American people, must always trump politics.”

On Tuesday a panel of experts convened by the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, the federal agency led by Dr. Anthony Fauci, issued guidelines stating that experts had collected insufficient data to recommend either for or against the use of any antiviral drug or medication that affects the immune system in patients with Covid-19.

The panel did specifically advise against several treatments unless they were given in clinical trials. One was the combination of hydroxychloroquine plus the antibiotic azithromycin, which Mr. Trump has repeatedly promoted despite the lack of evidence that they work. Those drugs should be used only in clinical trials “because of the potential for toxicities,” the experts said.

The panel also had cautionary advice about hydroxychloroquine and chloroquine, even when given without azithromycin, saying that patients receiving them should be monitored for adverse effects, particularly an abnormality in heart rhythm.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/22/us/coronavirus-live-coverage.html

Doesn't surprise me. Of course some people won't care or will make another excuse for this kind of childish behavior.

Our lack of trust towards facts, science, and sound medical advice will make this pandemic go on longer than it needs to.

Now come the "you're so smart, facts are a liberal invention, and this cure is worse than the disease!" replies.

To those who have that mentality, take it up with the government who said they would help you. Other countries are finding ways to provide for their people. Maybe it should start by not giving executives a large cushion so they can still receive their annual million dollar bonuses...

Saying "Natural selection loves a trumpian" sounds much closer to the latter. In fact, it sounds downright giddy at the thought.


What is the responsible thing?


Yea, that's all they want. And yea, they are awful.

Well you got me. I'm giddy at the thought of Trumpians spreading the virus and dying... smh I thought I just saw you use 'asinine' in a post so I assume you know the meaning.

The more I read this forum, the more I am giddy about EVERYONE getting this thing.

By what I read, it seems most already have it.

So it's your supposition that isolated comments represent "Democrats" as a whole?



Following the instructions of places like the CDC and their guidelines put in place at Trump's own daily briefing of what the parameters are for opening the nation back up in phases.

Certainly going out and protesting while ignoring social distancing does not qualify as responsible.



Then why don't you explain to me what it was the Democrats were after in this last bill that held it up you find to be so self serving for them?

They are somehow as or more awful as the stunts and lies Trump is telling?

You do understand that Trump is supporting people to demonstrate to open up states that do not even qualify according to the very standards set in pace at his own briefing, right? That he is purposefully using a national emergency to sow discourse rather than unity, right?

I'm not sure if you're joking or whether you've just fallen off the deep end here.

Yes! Death to America! No, wait......

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/michiga...-president-says

Utter disgrace Democrats have turned out to be. Someone had their life saved by a drug the President spoke of and she said Thank You. Now the Democrats want to Censure her. Wake up!!!

She attributed her recovery to something that couldn't have possibly helped.

Doesn't matter. People attribute their recoveries to prayer and God... can't prove it helped, can't prove it didn't. Do those people get censured?

If the answer is ever no, then this is a load of crap.... and I'm in the camp that wants the HCQ hype to go away.

They should. But I digress because you can't fix stupid.

We're not allowed to sterilize it, either.... like it or not, Stupid has Rights, and Stupid deserves fair treatment and not politicized crap that is only happening as an indirect avenue to attack someone else.

It's just a sickening extension of partisan stupidity that really just takes things too far.

FDA issues warnings on chloroquine and hydroxychloroquine after deaths and poisonings reported
PUBLISHED FRI, APR 24 202010:06 AM EDTUPDATED MOMENTS AGO
Berkeley Lovelace Jr.
@BERKELEYJR
KEY POINTS
The agency also said it became aware of reports of “serious heart rhythm problems” in patients with the virus who were treated with the malaria drugs.
It said patients taking the drugs for approved reasons, including malaria or to treat autoimmune conditions like lupus, should continue taking their medicine as prescribed.


Researchers cut chloroquine study short after ‘primary outcome’ was death

The Food and Drug Administration warned consumers Friday against taking malaria drugs chloroquine and hydroxychloroquine to treat Covid-19 outside a hospital or formal clinical trial setting after deaths and poisonings were reported.

The agency said patients taking the drugs for approved reasons, including malaria or to treat autoimmune conditions like lupus, should continue taking their medicine as prescribed.


The agency also said it became aware of reports of “serious heart rhythm problems” in patients with the virus who were treated with the malaria drugs, often in combination with antibiotic azithromycin, commonly known as a Z-Pak. It also warned physicians against prescribing the drugs to treat the coronavirus outside of a hospital.

“Hydroxychloroquine and chloroquine can cause abnormal heart rhythms such as QT interval prolongation and a dangerously rapid heart rate called ventricular tachycardia,” the agency wrote in the notice. “We will continue to investigate risks associated with the use of hydroxychloroquine and chloroquine for COVID-19 and communicate publicly when we have more information.”

GP: Production of chloroquine phosphate
An employee checks the production of chloroquine phosphate, resumed after a 15-year break, in a pharmaceutical company in Nantong city in east China’s Jiangsu province Thursday, Feb. 27, 2020. Chloroquine phosphate, an old drug for the treatment of malaria, has shown some efficacy and acceptable safety against COVID-19 associated pneumonia in trials, according to Chinese media.
Feature China | Barcroft Media | Getty Images
The peer-reviewed Journal of the American Medical Association released a new study Friday that said researchers cut short a study testing chloroquine as a potential treatment for Covid-19 over safety concerns, citing a “primary outcome” of death. Nearly two dozen patients died and some developed irregular heart rates after taking doses of the drug daily.

The FDA’s warning was issued after JAMA shared the study results with the scientific community but before they were released to the public on Friday.

There are no proven treatments for Covid-19, which has infected more than 2.7 million people worldwide and killed at least 191,231 as of Friday morning, according to data compiled by Johns Hopkins University. U.S. health officials say a vaccine to prevent the disease will take at least 12 to 18 months, meaning finding an effective drug treatment soon is crucial.

Chloroquine and hydroxychloroquine are known to have serious side effects, including muscle weakness and heart arrhythmia.

Chloroquine was approved by FDA in 1949 to treat malaria. Its derivative, hydroxychloroquine, is often used by doctors to treat rheumatoid arthritis and lupus. The drugs have been touted by President Donald Trump as a potential “game changer” in the fight against the coronavirus.

Both drugs are in clinical trials examining their effectiveness in treating the Covid-19, but neither are proven treatments.

Chloroquine gained a lot of attention after a small study of 36 Covid-19 patients published March 17 in France found that most patients taking the drug cleared the coronavirus from their system a lot faster than the control group. Adding azithromycin to the mix “was significantly more efficient for virus elimination,” the researchers said. Infectious disease experts and scientists warned that the findings were not definitive.

The FDA has cleared some emergency use of the drugs, but the agency said Friday they have not been approved to prevent or treat the coronavirus.

"it became aware"?

It's been common medical knowledge for what... 75+ years?

It made this congresswoman better. But, what does the left say. Let's censure her and shut her up!!!

The FDA isn't the left. The FDA is a non-partisan organization that works to keep all of us safe with what we ingest into our bodies.

I don't know if I'd go that far, lol

That's like claiming WHO isn't political, heh

This Congress woman was dying! She heard President Trump speak about the drug and asked her Dr. to try the drug. He did. She got better. But, since that goes against some left wing agenda she must be silenced. The last time I checked this was still the USA and we had freedom of speech. The Democrats have not gained full control yet and took that freedom away yet.

I mean isn't everything political by that logic, which then also defeats the purpose of this very forum?

one could only hope

So all the evidence of the contrary means nothing? You do realize many people in her condition recover without taking it, right? So there is nothing but her "feelings" that it was actually why she got better. You do grasp that, right?

its good we have Dr Pit and Dr OCD to keep an eye on our health. Where do you get your info Dr Pelosi and Dr Shumer?

You aren't listening to Dr's. You're listening to the opinion of a woman who has no idea why her condition actually improved.

You've ignored what the vast majority of health professionals are saying. So even if I were a doctor it wouldn't make any difference. I look at evidence from doctors. You listen and use an argument from someone with zero qualifications.

So should she be censured for having an opinion. Is that what Democrats have come to?