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Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!
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LOL, laugh it up.
At the end of the day our linebackers are the WORST in the NFL.
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Erroneous. Ours are the most UNKNOWN.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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You know my love will Not Fade Away.........
#gmSTRONG
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I wish he would have spelled "corps" right.
And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul.
- John Muir
#GMSTRONG
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I wish he would have spelled "corps" right. 
"First down inside the 10. A score here will put us in the Super Bowl. Cooper is far to the left as Njoku settles into the slot. Moore is flanked out wide to the right. Chubb and Ford are split in the backfield as Watson takes the snap ... Here we go."
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![[Linked Image from i28.photobucket.com]](http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c201/shadedog/mcenroe2.jpg) gmstrong ----------------- 2023: The year we got a legit D.
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in the last decade. Fixed it for ya Mr. Wilson 
Blocking those who argue to argue, eliminates the argument.
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I wish he would have spelled "corps" right. My man Mack has my back ... 
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I am surprised no one mentioned the "El Oh El". 
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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in the last decade. Fixed it for ya Mr. Wilson I have no problem with MW and our LB corps overall proving us wrong. I can see how Mack takes all this talk personally, as he is probably the most talented LB in the room, now. I think we have a lot of young, raw talent that can eventually be formed into capable unit... but historically we just haven't been able to do that in such a short amount of time.
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
-PrplPplEater
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I am surprised no one mentioned the "El Oh El". I was thinking--and laughing--about it.
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And here I thought it was Spanish for LOL.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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in the last decade. Fixed it for ya Mr. Wilson I have no problem with MW and our LB corps overall proving us wrong. I can see how Mack takes all this talk personally, as he is probably the most talented LB in the room, now. I think we have a lot of young, raw talent that can eventually be formed into capable unit... but historically we just haven't been able to do that in such a short amount of time. don't get me wrong, I want him to prove me wrong. I also wish my rusted out 2002 Nissan maxima was a Ferarri F40. But, it's not. LOL
Blocking those who argue to argue, eliminates the argument.
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And here I thought it was Spanish for LOL. Ok, that wasn't good for my keyboard.
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I do expect the unit to struggle, honestly. At best, we have a lot of unknowns there this year. Mack played decent but had his struggles. Schobert and Kirksey are gone. I get the arguments about value, but we are less talented at LB without Schobert. I hope they prove me wrong, but fronting on Twitter about it won’t do it.
Blue ostriches on crack float on milkshakes between the sidewalk titans of gurglefitz. --YTown
#gmstrong
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Yeah, Schobert at least gave us a vet presence. He’s been a controversial topic ... some feel he’s way underrated and some feel the opposite haha.
I also agree about the social media stuff .. I think a lot of us are tired of the talk with little production. Just win.
"First down inside the 10. A score here will put us in the Super Bowl. Cooper is far to the left as Njoku settles into the slot. Moore is flanked out wide to the right. Chubb and Ford are split in the backfield as Watson takes the snap ... Here we go."
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Yeah, Schobert at least gave us a vet presence. He’s been a controversial topic ... some feel he’s way underrated and some feel the opposite haha.
I also agree about the social media stuff .. I think a lot of us are tired of the talk with little production. Just win. My feeling if half the people think he was underrated, and half feel he was overrated, that makes him a average Joe. Joe was very good in coverage for a linebacker. He wasn't the best at stopping the run. I think it boiled down to two things. We decided stopping the run was more important for a backer than coverage ability. Money also played a part. I am sure we talked to his agent. They knew the range we would be willing to pay and we knew what they were thinking, and it just wasn't going to match. Add in the NFL is more and more going 5 DB's a great deal of the time, that makes being a rangy run stopper all the more important, something Joe was not. You have to see trends. LB is becoming a devalued position much like running back has. Run stopping is the key for those guys, coverage isn't. If you want coverage skills, put a safety or corner on the guy.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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Thanks for saying hey on another thread .... its great to see u around again and all grown up with kids of your own ... good for u my friend ... very happy for u as it appears your a fine young man ... I think this group is going to surprise for a few reasons .... 1. The bars not that high for them in two ways ... - We can bemoan the loss of Kirksey and Joe all we want ... the end result wasn’t very good ... our run D was bad and it may have been the DL’s fault but so what ... for the most part our LBers were invisible in the run game unless it was Joe making a tackle after a 4 or 5 yard gain with the runner ALWAYS falling forward ... Joe dies not shed blocks well and is not a good tackler ... Kirksey was hardly ever on the field so he will almost literally not be missed ... Bottom line is regardless of how u personally saw Joe the results were not good in either the run or pass game ... our LBer’s have underperformed in the scope of the teams success ... - the expectations just aren’t that high for this group ... no need to elaborate on this one ... 2. Wilson should have been in college last year ... instead he was gaining invaluable experience after being thrown to the wolves last year ... he had more ups than downs but he did flash ... dudes got a shot to be good ... he could have been a 1st rnd pick this year if he stood in school .... he also has a chip on his shoulder ... 3, the biggest jump players make is usually between years 1 and 2 ... that all i got for TakiTaki ... *L* ... This group is definitely unknown and lacks names but I’m optimistic about them ...
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When the news came out that Joe said Dorsey and company hadn't spoken to Joe about a new contract, there were people on this board complaining how he was "dropping the ball" and how dumb it was. Those complaints have magically vaporized into the whiff of a distant memory. Diam, I am not putting you into that category. Now, the talk is that he wasn't very good and won't be missed. The following grades are from different years. I didn't bother to categorize them. Joe's PFF grade was down last year, but overall, he has graded very, very high. I will post three of those grades, so as to not clog the board. However, I am willing to post more of the grades per user request. Just let me know, because the high grades do exist. Take a look and see if you still think he was so ineffective...   
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there were people on this board complaining how he was "dropping the ball" and how dumb it was. Those complaints have magically vaporized into the whiff of a distant memory Only if you have selective memory those have "magically vaporized", because plenty of people have opined negatively that Schobert walking was a lack of action from Dorsey last season and/or are upset that he simply isn't here, regardless of how it went down. What was even more upsetting is Joe's quote that he knew he was out of Cleveland as a result and there really wasn't much of a chance to retain him once the new year started. But hey, here you go creating something out of nothing......again.
Tackles are tackles.
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Speaking of magic tricks. The master of deception has arrived.
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Diam, do you remember the Steeler game last year when Myles had the helmet thing going on?
Lost in that game, was how well Schobert played. He had a sack, seven solo tackles, two tackles for a loss, two interceptions and four pass deflections. He was all over the field, making play after play after play. We held the Steelers to 7 points in that game.
Unlike some, I am not excusing either Dorsey or the new FO. I think they both failed. I am not sure why Dorsey didn't try and start the proceedings of a new contract w/Joe during the season? Perhaps, he wanted to wait until after the season........but, the fact that Joe said they hadn't even spoken is a pretty bad sign. Thus, I think he deserves some of the blame. I also put blame on the new FO, because they had plenty of time to get a deal done w/Joe. The excuse that they didn't have enough time is a joke. Did Jax have more time to get a deal done than our new FO? The answer is "NO!"
I think both Dorsey and Berry made a mistake in not keeping Joe. I know you are on this positive kick again, but bro, reality is still something to consider.
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I’ve become optimistic, not stupid ... *L* ... I am fully aware of reality ... just as i was last year before the season ... i also understand this is stretching the limits of optimism vs reality but its how i choose to view things .... hopefully this year the isle of optimism fairs much better than fantasy island ... *L* ... ‘ I'm not a fan of PFF .. I’ve never used them good or bad ... I blame both regimes equally In that i think they saw the same things in Joe and came to the sa,e conclusion ... just blaming KJ is simply 100% biased agenda BS that makes no sense ... As for Joe ... he is not a good tackler and he does not shed blocks well ... not good traits for a LBer ... Joe’s not good against the run IMO .. do u disagree? ... I’m not trying to change your mind ... just trying to point out there’s two sides to this coin and i don’t believe its as black and white as u do ... add that to the optimistic poster i now am and the fact Joes not here and thats how the math works out to me ..
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I don't have a Browns jersey. I was thinking about getting one. I decided I wanted a Schobert jersey. I knew the contract was in the the wind. So I held off waiting for a decision.
Frankly, I was pissed. Schobert to me represents what a team looks for. A mid round pick that develops into a team leader.
The Browns had the money to sign him. They had the need to keep a veteran leader in that position group. In my mind it would have represented how the team supports those who develop and perform by signing him to a fair deal.
I don't get why he was not signed. I agree Vers it was a failure by both management groups.
When you watched the difference between when he was hurt and he missed games to when he played; it was dramatic.
Was Schobert a candidate for first team all Pro every year? No.
He was a good player who lead the defense and was an excellent coverage linebacker.
Unless they add a like type talent. He will be sorely missed.
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That's fair.
I am not saying PFF is gospel. I think it's a helpful guide or tool. I actually starting paying for one of their premium services. But, I have no problem if you don't like them.
I think Joe's tackling was compromised when he was asked to lose weight by GW. He could be stronger. I think he avoids blocks well. I am not sure if I posted this one, but he was ranked very high on "first contact" hits. I do think the weight loss really helped w/his pass coverage abilities. To be frank, defending the pass is more important in today's game. I will also say that Ogunjobi's play in front of Joe was a factor. He got manhandled too often and blockers were able to reach the second level.
I don't see this as either one of us trying to change the other's mind. It's just a football conversation w/out the BS. In the end, I think we had the money and he is the kind of guy you want to keep. A mid-round pick who has exceeded his draft status. A guy who calls the defenses, is very smart, a hard-working leader who made the team better when he was on the field. Our D got much worse when he was hurt. I think we had the money and I am not throwing a temper tantrum about it, but I disagree w/both Dorsey and Berry for not doing more to keep this guy, especially considering who we have to replace him.
No worries. Enjoy the football conversation.
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Good post. I agree almost completely w/what you are saying.
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SUCK!
Nice job letting Joe and Kirksey walk.
Business as usual for this joke of a franchise. I am upset they let Schobert go. He was very good, especially in coverage. That said, does anyone actually think Kirksey will be missed? No way was he worth $7 million when he can't stay healthy, and he was possibly above average at best. He wasn't remotely close to even Schobert, so I have no issues with him being gone.
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I always liked Schobert - from the beginning of course what else is new. But I get a good feeling for LBs from Wisconsin in general. Joe was never great but he worked hard and was smart, I didn't like the fact we were not high on him Dorsey and then the new guys. But I understood several things.
1. Our 4-3 and often 4-2 defense, the LBs were not impact players the concentration is about the DL. For years I think all except in the beginning but when Butch got canned we switched to a 3-4 Defense and mentally as fans we have come to cherish the Impact of the LBS...in the 4-3 however there is lesss Impact and now with the use of a 4-2 adding another DB in the base D its even less of an Impact.
2. Mack Wilson was a steal and he is the guy who will provide more Impact than Joe. At least our staff feels that is the case.
3. The money it was going to take to keep Joe and his overall value just didn't make sense. 10 mil plus. per season.
We have to be cautious on who we offer 2nd contract to as shamefully in the past since 1999 we rarely came to that fork in the road as we had few successes..
But there are several positions. OGs, LBs, RBs, SSs, TEs, that are common in accessing them in FA or in the draft. They are not rare and I understand why we didn't pursue Joe. I wish he was here as I said, I really liked him but I don't think we will be hurt by this decision.
jmho - now if he was a Kuechely type of talent those are the exceptions.
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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I don't have a Browns jersey. I was thinking about getting one. I decided I wanted a Schobert jersey. I knew the contract was in the the wind. So I held off waiting for a decision.
Frankly, I was pissed. Schobert to me represents what a team looks for. A mid round pick that develops into a team leader.
The Browns had the money to sign him. They had the need to keep a veteran leader in that position group. In my mind it would have represented how the team supports those who develop and perform by signing him to a fair deal.
I don't get why he was not signed. I agree Vers it was a failure by both management groups.
When you watched the difference between when he was hurt and he missed games to when he played; it was dramatic.
Was Schobert a candidate for first team all Pro every year? No.
He was a good player who lead the defense and was an excellent coverage linebacker.
Unless they add a like type talent. He will be sorely missed.
I think it is telling two front offices came to the same conclusion. He wasn't worth the minimum bid.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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I think the realistic me would agree with u and bone ... I do have one question ... if joe is so good in coverage why do we always struggle covering te’s ... please educate me on that one as I’m sure its something I’m making to simple ... I also agree with tabber and think we could see big things from Mack ... the realistic me firmly believes that ...
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I think the realistic me would agree with u and bone ... I do have one question ... if joe is so good in coverage why do we always struggle covering te’s ... please educate me on that one as I’m sure its something I’m making to simple ... I also agree with tabber and think we could see big things from Mack ... the realistic me firmly believes that ...
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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I think the realistic me would agree with u and bone ... I do have one question ... if joe is so good in coverage why do we always struggle covering te’s ... please educate me on that one as I’m sure its something I’m making to simple ... I also agree with tabber and think we could see big things from Mack ... the realistic me firmly believes that ... I think so too. He played well at Alabama, and that is a petty good testing ground. Yet Saban said he really needed to return for another season. Nick Saban staffs are NFL equal staffs. He knows what it takes and knows what it takes in the coaches he hires. He has had some teams down there that could beat a few NFL teams. He puts NFL ready players in to the league. I am pretty sure he is going to be a very good player moving forward.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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I think the realistic me would agree with u and bone ... I do have one question ... if joe is so good in coverage why do we always struggle covering te’s ... please educate me on that one as I’m sure its something I’m making to simple ... I also agree with tabber and think we could see big things from Mack ... the realistic me firmly believes that ... I think so too. He played well at Alabama, and that is a petty good testing ground. Yet Saban said he really needed to return for another season. Nick Saban staffs are NFL equal staffs. He knows what it takes and knows what it takes in the coaches he hires. He has had some teams down there that could beat a few NFL teams. He puts NFL ready players in to the league. I am pretty sure he is going to be a very good player moving forward. Yeah, I think Wilson struggled some last year, but as a 5th round rookie that is to be expected. I think he also had good instincts and reaction MOST of the time, and he actually seemed to blow quite a few plays up last year if I remember right. People seem to always want Pro Bowl rookies and it usually doesn't work that way. How good was Schobert his rookie year? I do think our LBs are a liability until proven otherwise, but I also think they'll be better than it seems right now. Players grow and progress (if they put the work in) and I hope a lot of these guys are using the time at home now to study film and really learn the defense.
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I think the realistic me would agree with u and bone ... I do have one question ... if joe is so good in coverage why do we always struggle covering te’s ... please educate me on that one as I’m sure its something I’m making to simple ... I also agree with tabber and think we could see big things from Mack ... the realistic me firmly believes that ... I may be wrong, but I seem to remember Joe being in zone a lot. At that point, Joe would only cover the TEs in his zone. Also, his assignment may be the RB, or even a slot WR. Just depends on his responsibility on the play.
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j/c
I think one "problem" with PFF's grades is that different players are asked to do different things. It's easier to grade well in coverage if your assignments are primarily block-first TEs and and deep zones (especially with underwhelming opponent QB play.) Manning up an athletic TE/RB is much more difficult.
If you give a calculus class simple arithmetic problems, they'd probably grade pretty well. If you give them more challenging problems, they probably won't do as well. Unfortunately, there's not a way to establish standardized tests during NFL games.
Joe was good at what he was asked to do, in coverage. But, it often wasn't calculus.
Covering blocking TEs isn't exactly a skill that is in high demand.
We'll see what this group asks the LBs to do. ...Probably covering blocking TEs lol, and coming downhill against the run.
Hopefully our safeties/DBs can handle the tougher coverage assignments.
![[Linked Image from i.ibb.co]](https://i.ibb.co/fkjZc8B/Bull-Dawg-Sig-smaller.jpg) You mess with the "Bull," you get the horns. Fiercely Independent.
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When getting into the Joe debate folks take sides pretty freely .. I have gone back and watched Joe over several games the last two seasons .. In Joe's defense, His DC's schemes had him totally out of position to be involved with the Offensive play that was called. Neither William's nor Wilks did him any favors. On the negative side Joe was not a stump er as a run stopper. He was continually blow up by Guards , TE's and RB's on running plays. There was enough blame to go around.
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General comment...
I think our LBs have talent, but are just very very young. My post above was that, in the past, when we are relying on a very young group of guys to play well w/o much experience, it generally doesn't turn out well. That's not so much an indictment of them as players, but moreso where they are in their careers/pro development.
Last edited by oobernoober; 05/21/20 11:11 AM. Reason: Added last sentence
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
-PrplPplEater
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,859 Likes: 642 |
Thanks for saying hey on another thread .... its great to see u around again and all grown up with kids of your own ... good for u my friend ... very happy for u as it appears your a fine young man ... I think this group is going to surprise for a few reasons .... 1. The bars not that high for them in two ways ... - We can bemoan the loss of Kirksey and Joe all we want ... the end result wasn’t very good ... our run D was bad and it may have been the DL’s fault but so what ... for the most part our LBers were invisible in the run game unless it was Joe making a tackle after a 4 or 5 yard gain with the runner ALWAYS falling forward ... Joe dies not shed blocks well and is not a good tackler ... Kirksey was hardly ever on the field so he will almost literally not be missed ... Bottom line is regardless of how u personally saw Joe the results were not good in either the run or pass game ... our LBer’s have underperformed in the scope of the teams success ... - the expectations just aren’t that high for this group ... no need to elaborate on this one ... 2. Wilson should have been in college last year ... instead he was gaining invaluable experience after being thrown to the wolves last year ... he had more ups than downs but he did flash ... dudes got a shot to be good ... he could have been a 1st rnd pick this year if he stood in school .... he also has a chip on his shoulder ... 3, the biggest jump players make is usually between years 1 and 2 ... that all i got for TakiTaki ... *L* ... This group is definitely unknown and lacks names but I’m optimistic about them ... Hey Diam! Thanks for the kind words, my friend. That means a lot. I hear what you are saying. I tend to think Schobert was a solid MLB. I can see the argument, though, that he was perhaps not worth what he was paid. I guess time will tell. My biggest concern, though, is that he was our best starter on a mediocre squad and he left, which inherently makes that mediocre squad worse, unless our mid-round rookie can step right in and play at his level, which I doubt happens. Either that, or the rookie has to be decent and Wilson has to step up his game to Schobert’s level or higher. I just do t have a ton of faith in that happening.
Blue ostriches on crack float on milkshakes between the sidewalk titans of gurglefitz. --YTown
#gmstrong
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 14,640 Likes: 1050
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 14,640 Likes: 1050 |
Clearly they did not want to pay him.
Apparently they felt that they could get a like type player from the draft and spend the money elsewhere.
We shall see. Maybe they are right.
I look at it differently. Joe was the defensive captain. He was the guy who lined people up. He played smart. When you look at the number of plays he made solo. It proved how instinctive he was.
I think you are right in that they will use different packages.
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