DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Hey Dawg Fans - Is Your Team Gonna Turn it Around this Year Finally -Freindly Who Dat Brother

I post here occasionally. My 2nd favorite team is the Browns. I'm a die hard Saints addict, but the Browns are my 2nd favorite team. The Browns and Baltimore fan bases got more screwed than any other fan bases in NFL history. But it worked out for the Baltimore fans with 2 SBs. So many of us want to see rajun Dawg fans during a Browns playoff run. I think the Browns and Saints fan bases are the best and craziest fans in the league.

We saw what was possible under Greg Wiliams. I was expecting a definite playoff game or two last year. To me, the Browns seem loaded with talent except maybe O-line.

What kept you your team out of the playoffs last year? Kitchens? Players? and do you all see a real playoff team if we play this seasons.

To all Dawgs, I sure hope you get to take in the excitement of a NFL top team pushing for a SB run. No fan base deserves it more

yes

There were a number of things that kept us out, but I think the general consensus is agreed that Freddie was the biggest issue. The second biggest is that Baker, for whatever reason (many attribute it to Freddie's offense) grossly underperformed.

After that, there were just a ton of hits that kept coming on defense. We were without our entire starting secondary for a while because they had a big role concussion party, then Vernon was hurt, then Garrett was suspended. I think there were more injuries on the DLine, and our GM at the time kept dumping our depth and bringing in unknown depth. Kirksey tore another pec, Schobert was injured, etc, etc, etc... just more issues than our meager depth could cover.

I definitely think we are better positioned for a playoff run this year. Our new HC has a better demeanor, is a good bit smarter, and is aligned with the front office. Some discount the value of that, but I do not.

Our Oline has the potential to be otherworldly this year. Not even the same universe as last year's. I think the blocking scheme should better suit our guys, too.

On paper, our defense should be better, but it is still a gigantic question mark. There was a good bit of attention paid to getting guys that can stop the run. Most everyone we brought in on defense has that on their resume.

It boils down to coaching, defense, and Baker. If we get the 2018 Baker that set records, this offense will be a weekly highlight reel. If we don't, we will miss the playoffs. If our defense cannot stop the run consistently and well enough to bottle up Lamar & JK Dobbins, we won't go anywhere. If we do, we are a legitimate contender for it all.

I think our biggest problem was the success we had in 2018 after the coaching change, the success at the end of the year combined with the all the media hype let Kitchens, Baker and the team get inflated egos of themselves and figured they had arrived instead of buckling down and working hard.

Coaching was a big issue last year, as was team chemistry. It seemed like Baker took a step back (whether it was due to offseason stuff or coaching or both).

It probably was coaching and offseason stuff. However, there is also a possibility that perhaps DCs figured out how to defend him. Reading half the field, having one read on most plays, and going w/max protection works for a bit, but it doesn't endure. Hopefully, he isn't a system qb.......but, it's a concern.

Thanks for some good vibes here. I am a Saints fan second. I am thinking we can put up points and be viable in playoffs this year, but I feel that way every year. Right now, both our teams are undefeated. Maybe the refs give you more love this year.

Have a good year. Be safe!

As we saw in Newlains, Greg Williams is a great turnaround guy for a couple of years. He seems to be able to get players really fired up and playing super aggressive for a few years. But then he seems to lose interest or his player motivation style loses impact over a couple of years.

Best wishes this year, if there is a season

Hey man. New Orleans is my/our favorite city to visit. It's almost like leaving the country. We both love food and no city is this country can beat the "Easy"


It's been a few years, we have to get back. Breakfast at Brennans, R Revolution, Antione's, Louisiana Pizza Kitchen, Commanders Palace, Acme Oyster House, not to mentions some of the gumbo places and bars, like the Absinth House...classic town.

Everybody needs to visit the "Easy" a few times. Few places on earth like that.


My absolute favorite American city. Not even close, and we have been to most of where people want to go. Name a destination city and we have probably been there.

We like to travel, and with near 50 years of traveling together, the list is pretty long.

The offense was a disaster, every single series it seemed like the players did not know where to line up. The route combo's often had 3 receivers within 5 yards of each other (???). The play calling was horrific, shotgun runs on the goal line, Jets sweep on the goal line??

After the San Fransisco game it was painfully obvious that we could not pass protect, we got housed. Then we turned around and found away to lose against the Seahawks.

The biggest problem was the offensensive scheme was horrendous. Follow by not being able to pass protect, we got absolutely dominated up front by the worst team in the league in the season finale. Finally our defense, we could not withstand losing Myles Garret and Olive Vernon, after they went down, we could not stop the run or rush the passer.

I also think Damarious Randall quit.

This is not an insult, but it's interesting to note that various people can watch the same games and "see" things so differently. For example, no way would I rank pass pro as the Browns second greatest weakness.

It's very possible I have recency bias but I was at the season finale, Carlos Dunlap was absolutely destroying our tackles. He had like 3 sacks, a TON of pressures and hits on the QB, blowing plays up in the backfield. Greg Robinson was absolute trash in that game and a lot of the season.


Edit: I think obviously the front office saw the same thing, as they signed a big money free agent tackle and drafted another one top 10.

This is what I said.



Who is pushing their opinion on whom?

You have to keep in mind that he's on Baker's payroll.

Who's payroll are you on?


Just saying.

Our pass pro couldn't have been all that good considering all the attention we gave the o-line this off season. We signed a top free agent, made our first pick a 0-line guy. Drafted another interior guy in what, the 5th round?

You don't do that if you think everything is hunky-dory.


Just saying.

There's a huge difference in "everything being hunky dory" and things being terrible. It sort of cracks me up when people who push analytics use PFF as a guide to telling the story. Until that is the story doesn't fit into what they want to tell.

You're welcome to look for yourself but it has been posted many times. We were average at pass protection and bottom 10 at run blocking.

We certainly needed a lot of talent infused in the OL. But let's stop pretending that everything we saw was all on the OL. There was a lot of blame to go around.

And tab is one of those who tries to claim none of it was on Baker. When a guy throws 22 tds. and 21 int's, he's a part of the problem.

I was at the same game, and saw the same thing... but there were a number of players that had mailed it in by then. Overall, I think the offensive line was ok. They had some real rough stretches, but as time went on it became clear that folks around them weren't making their lives easy. The offensive scheme put enormous pressure on them, and Baker was holding the ball and running around like a dummy. Baker was doing a better job as the season went on, and perhaps the scheme did adapt a little.

Put another way... I don't think the O-line was as bad as they looked, but for what was being asked of them, they needed to be better.

O- new 0-line.

We invested in 0-line.

I think there are different arguments being made. I never once said that the OL was good. I said that I disagreed w/pass protection being the second largest concern after coaching. I think the run blocking was worse than the pass blocking. Analytics agrees.

I didn't insult anyone. I even clarified I was not insulting the poster and said it's interesting how we all watch the same games and have different take-aways. tab came on here and started making claims that I never said.

I have no problems w/different opinions, but I don't like people misrepresenting what I actually said. That crap happens far too often.

Ok, I checked PFF to see what they thought about our pass blocking last year and here is their grades:

TEAM - on 652 pass snaps we allowed 34 sacks, 19 hits, 151 hurries. pass block rating 71.9

C Tretter - played and started all 16 games with 652 pass blocking snaps,
gave up 1 sack, 16 hurries. 5 penalties, Pass block rating 85.5

LG Bitonio - played and started all 16 games with 652 pass blocking snaps,
gave up 3 sacks, 1 hit, 16 hurries. 3 penalties, pass block rating 86.0

RG Kush - played and started in 8 games with 282 pass blocking snaps,
gave up 2 sacks, 17 hurries, 4 penalties, pass block rating 51.3

RG Teller - started 9 games/played in 11 with 337 pass blocking snaps,
gave up 1 sack, 3 hits, 12 hurries. 2 penalties, pass block rating 68.6

RT Hubbard - started 13 games/played in 14 with 566 pass blocking snaps,
gave up 6 sacks, 3 hits, 29 hurries. 8 penalties, pass block rating 61.9

RT/LT McCray - started 4 games/played in 14 with 198 pass blocking snaps,
gave up 3 sacks, 1 hit, 12 hurries 4 penalties, pass block rating 42.0

LT Robinson - started and played in 14 games with 535 pass blocking snaps,
gave up 4 sacks, 5 hits, 17 hurries. 11 penalties, pass block rating 69.3

RT Lamm - started 2 games/played in 3 games with 46 pass blocking snaps,
2 hurries, 0 penalties, pass block rating 72.0

TE Njoku - started 1 game/played in 4 games with 11 pass blocking snaps,
gave up 1 sack, pass block rating 58.4

TE Harris - started 6 games/played in 15 games with 72 pass blocking snaps,
gave up 1 sack, 1 hit, 3 hurries. pass block rating 64.6

TE Carlson - started 5 games/played in 9 games with 25 pass blocking snaps,
1 hit, pass block rating 77.3

TE Brown - started 6 games/played in 8 games with 21 pass blocking snaps,
1 hurry, pass block rating 72.0

TE Seal-Jones - started 3 games/played in 14 with 8 pass blocking snaps,
gave up 0 pressures, pass block rating 78.1

RB Chubb - played and started all 16 games with 68 pass blocking snaps,
1 hit, 5 hurries, pass block rating 77.8

RB Hunt - started 3 games/played in 8 games with 11 pass blocking snaps,
0 pressures, pass block rating 84.5

RB Hilliard - played in 14 games with 16 pass blocking snaps,
gave up 1 sack, 1 hit, 3 hurries, pass block rating 17.0

RB Johnson - played in 8 games with 8 pass blocking snaps,
gave up 1 sack, pass block rating 19.9

Now according to PFF QB Baker Mayfield played 647 passing snaps and was credited with 10 sacks, 2 hits, and 21 hurries on himself.

For comparison:

QB Tom Brady played 727 passing snaps and was credited with 2 sacks, 9 hits, and 7 hurries on himself.

QB Lamar Jackson played 564 passing snaps and was credited with 10 sacks, 3 hits, and 12 hurries on himself.

QB Andy Dalton played 609 passing snaps and was credited with 5 sacks, 1 hit, and 4 hurries on himself.

I don't understand their numbers.

Baker had 534 pass attempts and 40 sacks. That's 574 total. (per ESPN) Where are the additional 70 passing snaps to get to 647? There were 3 attempts by Gilbert, and 2 by OBJ ..... but that still leaves us well short of 647.

Also, Baker was sacked 40 times last year, not 34.

we sure did. Our run blocking sucked. Our pass blocking was slightly less than middle of the road but not nearly as bad as our run blocking. That's why both Conklin and Wills are known as stout players especially known for their run blocking.

Hey, we are friends. I am not sticking my finger in your forehead. I reserve that for people I don't like.

Haven't really been following the discussion.

I like the PFF ratings and use them as a pretty solid indicator. It has always surprised me that we got such a relatively 'average' OL pass block grade - but I haven't tried to fight it. The only thing I have rationalized in my mind is that there was huge inconsistency. So some games/plays/drives we looked great ... some plays and drives we were woeful. . . . I do not believe we were consistently average.

For any mathematicians - theoretically I would be really interested to know what the standard deviation in our pass protection grades were play to play. That would highlight the inconsistency.

I have no clue if Tab says Baker owns none of his poor play last year ... I'd be surprised. I would *imagine* he thinks more of Baker's struggles were because of other factors, rather than "all" .... but he can respond to that. I believe Baker would have struggled compared to his rookie performance even with the same OL and probably with the same playbook as 2018 ... he was definitely not as accurate. (I mentioned in a thread where a Landry video was posted). I also think there was a lot of other issues that compounded his issues.

I am delighted with the two new bookends at OT. I am especially pleased they are both considered excellent at run blocking because I think that is going to help us enormously ... Interesting to talk about Wills who (I think) gave up 1 sack in his college career, as being a better run blocker than pass blocker but you can see it in the highlights - he has an instinct for impact blocking and he delivers a heavy handed punch.

To the Original Post of the thread ... man I have been bitten so many times as a Browns Fan caught up in off-season hype. As others have said - I do believe on offense we have as much talent as virtually any team in the NFL. You line up with a 2TE set, or Hunt/Chubb backfield and you going to have to look hard for a better 11. D is going to really have to show me, I am worried about the LB position. They have all the talent to go to the playoffs. BUT ... I won't be "expecting" anything till they play a few games on Sundays!

I agree 100 percent. However what is involved with the INT's??? Was if Bakers fault??? Was it the fault of his receivers? Was it the fault of the coach or offensive cord?

I'll revert back to both of our new OT's being rated much higher in run blocking to address which part of blocking the new FO and coaching staff felt should be the point of emphasis.

I do agree that the pass blocking was up and down. There was no consistency from game to game. The rankings are based on the season as a whole and simply give you a look at which part of the blocking played out the poorest over the course of the season.

Just so you know, I have posted PFF's overall ranking for pass blocking and run blocking multiple times. The Browns were 17th in pass blocking and I believe they were 31st in run blocking.

This is one of the reasons why I disagreed w/the earlier take that pass pro was our second biggest problem after coaching.

All three, bro. You know that.

I will add that Baker also had a lot of potential picks dropped by defenders. So yeah, you can try and deflate the number of picks by blaming the receivers, but that would just be a one-sided and biased argument.

Basically, both run and pass sucked. "Slightly less than middle of the road" is still "Sucks", heheh


Look, were they blown up every single play? No. Were they blown up often? Yes. Were there plenty of snaps where they provided a clean pocket? Yes. Did the QB bail out of clean pockets? Yes. Were they penalized frequently? Do I even need to ask??? If the OLine specifically wasn't, the Offense in general was.


The biggest factor in the perception that the Oline sucked was in the timing of their miscues. We'd finally get things rolling, then Hubbard would get a Holding call and we'd be in 1st & 20. Then we'd run the ball on 2nd down, get maybe 8 yards and on 3rd and 12 someone would blow up whatever turnstile we had at RG and Sack, Hurry/Pressure, or otherwise disrupt the play turning it into a scramble drill.

It was a constant one step forward, one or two steps back. We could not consistently NOT shoot ourselves in the foot.

It wasn't as bad as during 1-31, but it was still plenty bad.
And yes, the QB contributed to it, too.

I did not even mention Baker in the post you attacked. I told BpG I was not insulting him and said it was "interesting" as to how people view games differently. For some reason, that set you off. So much for "burying the hatchet."

I don't think average is the same as sucking. Also, I want to clarify this again because things have gotten twisted. BpG said pass pro was our second biggest weakness after coaching. I politely disagreed w/that and clarified that run blocking was worse. Somehow, that got twisted around into another discussion. I'll end by saying that I still don't believe pass pro was the second greatest problem w/the team.

Below average *IS* the same as sucking.

I don't care if people were talking about run or pass pro... the OLine WAS an issue. Indisputably so. Hell, I'm still trying to figure out why Hubbard was ever even signed in the first place. No clue what Dorsey was thinking with that one... Hubs was terrible in Pittsburgh and was nothing better than a backup. Then he traded away Zeitler making that line weaker. For all the good he did at other positions, Dorsey didn't seem to know diddly about building an OLine and it very much showed.

Yes boss.

Almost always...AS IN 99.9% When you start a post like that "Im not insulting you" bang zoom you go and INSULT HIM. You don't see it? You probably don't cause you aren't a bad guy at all you mean that with certainty...you don't wish to insult a poster...but then you end up insulting him you just don't see it.

As noted I sit back and bite my tongue and don't wish to start a feud but every now and then I got to jump in and my purpose was not to INSULT you. We don't see different GAMES what we see is different interpretation of what we see.

And terms like "set you off" like I went on a tirade or something. Objecting to your opinion is not a "SETTING OFF" situation again its somebody having a different opinion than yours which you just cannot accept, and if they do they get accused by you and your shadow buddy there of coming down on somebody who shows some negative thoughts about BAKER.

And you do it thinking you are definitely in the right. But you do it adnauseum over n over again in posts regardless of the subject matter you got to chip away at Baker, What I find interesting is that game after game regardless of the STATS and there were negative stats coming from our passing game. But you don't see the amazing Accurate throws he makes in the smallest of windows. To see that the kid ain't your average QB there is something special about him. That's all you had a negative opinion of him coming in and stating things like "I HOPE HE DOES WELL" does not off set your thought on him were so obvious as you would slip and call him a "DRUNK" and insults like that which are something I would not expect from a Browns fan but it shows the obvious dislike you have in him.

He broke rookie records - his 2019 season was not stellar at all. But the O was put on his shoulders and a very weird environment was made. The two WRs took over the O from Kitchens their intensity was obvious and they would pull Baker to the side and tell him to tell Kitchens. There was a lot that went wrong besides the stats of our QB in his 2nd season first of which was WHO WAS RUNNING THAT O??? Kitchens lost the O and it was obvious.

jmho

Okay guys.......you win. I'll leave the thread.

I disagree, simply because probably one of the worst Olines (in terms of individual talent) just won a 'chip. Depending on what's around them, an average oline can take you a long way.

The problem is that it was below average.