DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Tailgate Forum Baker Mayfield

It won't surprise me if teams, league wide, all kneel as team.

Especially, after Roger Goodell's video statement the other day on behalf of the NFL.

I'll actually be more surprised if everyone is not kneeling.

Assuming, fans are back in the stands, I'll be curious the number of fans that kneel as well.

Give it up Dave , our America is gone .. What you see , is what you get !

They ought to just stop playing the anthem at the games and opt instead for a moment of silence where you can sit, stand or scratch your butt while you're contemplating how much you enjoyed hearing the anthem.

In terms of determining how whacky his points are, him liking his own post is the cherry on top.

"The road to hell is paved in good intentions." Isn't that how the saying goes?

There's also something to be said for knowing your audience. If you've discovered that your well intended gesture is going to upset a large portion of your audience, especially those whose minds you want to change, it might make sense to figure out a gesture that will be better received. As it is, it seems to be having the opposite of the intended effect.

They certainly have the right to do so. But, it does seem somewhat counterproductive.

j/c..


I think that the rhetoric around this is completely overblown.

Look, I'm a veteran. I don't like that he chooses the national anthem as his point to protest because of what than anthem and the flag mean to me, BUT I understand WHY he chose that and more importantly, I understand and respect that he has the Right to protest at that point in time. I support and defend that Right.
The very act *IS* what America is supposed to be all about.

Look , I'm a vet too. Just because you can do something dosnt mean you should. You can burn the flag ; I suggest you not do it around me .. lol

Agreed.
That said, this isn't a flag burning and it isn't as big of a deal as it is being made out to be.

But, it's all good because all of the people flipping out over it just actually feeds the value of his protest.

j/c

I find this entire thing absurd and that many people don't even understand what those who join the military take an oath to. Some even after serving in the military. Here is the oath people take when joining the military...



The oath taken is to "uphold the constitution".

The constitution plainly guarantees the right to peaceful protest. Not just the ones you like or agree with. The oath service members take does not include supporting and defending a song, a flag or any other object. Only the constitution. Maybe it's time those throwing such a fit take a look at what service members do and don't take on oath to support and defend and actually stand behind that instead of the very things they do not take an oath to support and defend.

J/C

A discussion I was having last night ... but my opinion: It is OK to stand for the anthem AND support those who kneel. Just because you stand doesn’t mean you support racism and inequality. JMO

It’s their choice to kneel and it’s my choice to not watch or buy merchandise if the kneel. I have no problem spending my Sundays taking walks in the park or watching Law&Order reruns.

that's fine no matter how flawed your reasoning is.

Because you disagree with him? That is pretty flawed reasoning in and of itself.

If he chooses to protest their protest, that exercise of his right is just as valid as the players protest is.

There's nothing flawed there. It's a personal choice and exercise of his freedom, exactly the same as the protest, and that doesn't require anyone's approval nor does their disapproval carry any weight, again, exactly the same as the protest.

The logic used by many is that it's a sign of disrespect to our troops and the military. I made it painfully obvious that our military takes an oath to uphold the constitution. Not a flag or a song.

Freedom to peacefully protest is a constitutional right. As such, those claiming that it is somehow disrespectful to our nation are placing symbols above the constitution. Many are the same people who will preach the constitution when it comes to rights they themselves wish to see upheld.

So yes, picking and choosing when the constitution holds importance and when it doesn't is quite flawed. Some may even say it borders on hypocrisy.

And BTW, I didn't say people didn't have a right to that choice.

I dont care if Baker kneels. I just dont want a media drama about it.

j/c...

IMO the whole charade could easily be a segment in the movie "Idiocracy". Kneeling does nothing to fix the problem... and since everyone is aware of the problem, it does nothing to "create awareness". It's funny to me that everyone thinks carrying some torch under the guise of creating awareness does something to fix the problem.

That said, I have no problem with players kneeling. I think it's kinda tacky, being that we all willingly enjoy the benefits of living in what many call the Greatest Country in the World, but whatever. The flag is a tribute to all those that worked hard, fought hard, gave their lives to protect, etc, etc... so I can see how veterans may take it as a slap in the face. I would think that most of them understand the reasoning behind it though. Bottom line - it has lost its effect. It would be better to put a few bytes of each team's leaders on the big screen with a heartfelt message and finish with a moment of silence, or something along those lines.

As a player, if the best you can do to combat the problem is to join the list of "kneelers", more power to you. It won't make a bit a difference in the whole scheme of things, but at least you're "on the list". If there are enough of you, we can spend Monday morning shaming those who didn't... and create more division without doing a damned thing to fix the problem. The only way I could see any impact is if ALL the players kneeled in solidarity. That may be a watershed moment and a lesson that things won't change until we're ALL in solidarity.

Sadly, until then, it's just a distraction, a distraction that does more to take away from the cause than it does to promote it. But that's America in the age that we live in, always a bait and switch to keep our eyes off the real problem. Always a tendency to focus on symptoms instead of putting our minds together for a cure. The problem is that we do this to ourselves and do nothing to actually fight for change. Kneeling in the face of the flag carries the sad irony that the very representation of working hard and fighting for freedom is snubbed in some weak attempt to show that you want "change" to wave its magic wand over the masses and fix the problem.

Yet here you are talking about this and giving it thought.



Except that whole statistic where unarmed black Americans and gunned down more than any other race per capita by cops. That's not enjoying the same benefits.



Which means black Americans also serve as soldiers. Imagine being a black man in the army knowing that there's probably a greater chance of dying unarmed from a police officer than in battle. Let that sink in.

Is it not an injustice to black soldiers that at home unarmed black Americans are killed more by cops than any other race per capita?



Yet once again, here you are talking about it. Hint: this means it's working and making you think.



Wanting women to vote, advocating for owning slaves, being against same-sex marriage, wishing for direct votes of senators, and a plethora of other changes used to be okay and American...



So here you are also on the record of wanting to tell minorities how to protest because it upsets you. What gives you the right to tell black Americans what is and isn't acceptable peaceful protest?

And again, the fix is working as you've spent more energy elaborating on what they're doing.



So what's stopping you from being in solidarity? Is it because you want to continue to police minorities in how they peacefully fight for their own rights they deserve?



Who gives you the authority on the "right" way for minorities to peacefully protest?



Since when did you become the authority on what are real problems in America?



Judging by your post, what I think you're upset at is that your solution doesn't match up with what minority Americans want.

You should step out of the way and let minority voices lead the charge. MLK Jr. wasn't a white dude.



Fight for the change by stepping out of the way and let minority voices lead the fight. It's really not that hard.



Being against kneeling is a sad reminder than no matter how minorities protest, even after asking someone who may be impacted by the protest on how to protest, you'll still have members of the majority still trying to impose rules because it makes them uncomfortable.

You, my friend, are clearly off your freakin' rocker. If you think dissecting a post into half sentences and creating some imaginary narrative is going to trigger me, you're wrong. All the other adults with IQs over 50 see it for what it is as well.

About all I'll respond to is your disgusting inferences that I don't care about the problem or think it should be solved through my eyes alone or "get out of the way, white dude" bs. For that, you can KMA.

I'm talking about kneeling for the NA and you turn it into me telling minorities how they should protest.

I talk about how the media will shame those who don't kneel - you turn it into advocating slavery and bashing people's sexual choices... talk about Twilight Zone.

Keep fighting the good fight, Rocket.

This form of protest was started by a black American. You’re angry over the form of protest others have followed.

You do understand that Kaep asked a soldier how to protest, right?

You do understand members of the black community would like to protest like this, right?

So what gives you the authority to say they can’t?

He actually said the opposite of this.

His bigger point is that it doesn't drive the change people think it does.

You understand that the exact soldier you reference was initially pissed because he was sitting and wrote him a letter, and no, he didn't tell him to take a knee, He told Kaep he wanted him to stand, kap wanted to sit so they compromised.

https://www.npr.org/2018/09/09/646115651...-to-take-a-knee

Where did he say that?

all it does is create more divide, now instead of talking about minority oppression and police brutality or the fact they got rid of his favorite girl scout cookie, it doesn't matter, because all they are talking about is why do they have to use the anthem and flag while protesting. My solution would be to have Roger pay to have several 30 second PSA's during the games on television where different players can say what they want. then message gets to a large audience and you don't piss of the group of people that allow you to make millions playing a sport.

That sounds like a really good idea and one that might be effective, especially when players are speaking from their hearts. Listening can be powerful. Listening to those impacted is really powerful.

Which was one of the things I actually did say in my post. Lol.

J/C

To Rishuz


It generates conversation was has eventually lead to change.



Yet people are already talking why they're kneeling. Yet people get too caught up in being "but that's disrespectful yet I don't want to hear about how unarmed black Americans are being gunned down. Don't tell me about how the armed services have people from all races in them and how certain races are unfairly treated by law enforcement."

Look Rishuz, this still boils down to people trying to tell minorities how to protest because "reasons".

------------------
To lead


Imagine people during the era of the fight for Civil Rights being told "hey, you won't have a job if you keep fighting for injustice. Do it in a way that won't piss people off and keep bowing to the rule of the majority because they're fragile".
------------------
To everyone,

If you want to understand where I get my views, opinions, and my outlook on life...I talk to people from communities much different than myself. Make an effort to listen, talk, and not tell a minority grouo how they're wrong because of your preconceived notions.

I honestly question whether you have the emotional maturity to be a part of the solution. I think you start out meaning well but the emotions take over and you kind of fall off the tracks. You just spoke about listening but you do a lot of talking at people. Your memes, quoting of dictionary definitions, claims of intellectual superiority, and general self righteousness are actually turnoffs. You become offended and kind of lose it when anyone doesn't see it your way.

If you really want people to see it your way then talk with them. Listen to both sides. Have a discussion. Don't start baiting threads like "would you say it". You could have easily started with "why I think saying black lives matter is important", but you weren't after that. You were looking for a fight, one that you seem ill equipped to handle.

Find a different approach.

Great advice.

You mean, him saying something like this (direct quote) "So what gives you the authority to say they can’t?", when no such statement was said by the person he was replying to, isn't ok?

Or, no one is allowed to add to 'black lives matter'.....except a black person? I asked him numerous times in the poll forum to respond - he never did reply.

Nope. I'm not going to change my methods so older generations don't feel offended. Too much is sanitized these days to make the majority comfortable or numb to the injustices in the world. We sort of live in a Fahrenheit 451 style world.



You need to look up what ethos, pathos, and logos are. Arguments contain all three and you mix all three. Facts, emotions, and credibility are three very important ways to discuss critical issues. I use all three quite liberally.



Receipts, please.

I would like you to find a single post where I claim I'm smarter than anyone on this board. If you find such a post where I claim intellectual superiority over a large swath of the members on this board, I'll leave forever.

If you can't, you leave forever.

Willing to take that wager?


A good argument involves defining terms and facts that back your views. Using definitions is one of many ways to establish logos and ethos.


It's not about me.

People need to be exposed to things which make them uncomfortable in order to think critically about the world. If someone wants to be a racist, fine. If someone wants to be a religious bigot, fine. Just don't use dogma such as that to make laws that treat people like sub-humans.



Why is it about making people comfortable? We wouldn't change if we were always comfortable.



Please show proof that I truly was looking to fight individuals on this board.

I'll wait for these receipts, too.

I'm not looking up anything. I don't care if you leave the board or not. I'd gladly leave if someone started a poll and the majority wanted me gone. It really wouldn't matter that much to me. Knock yourself out if you feel so inclined.

As to the rest, you proved my point. You were in such a hurry to argue with me, you didn't really listen to what I was saying. You seem to be latching onto this notion that progress can only be had by making others feel uncomfortable. Let's say I agreed with that. How you go about doing that is just as important.

Be a part of the solution if those are your true intentions.

So I'll continue to look to the those fighting for their rights to see how they would like the majority to jump in. I'm listening and asking people to consider why they should stop telling minority groups how to "fit" into the world. It's what I'm actually doing right now.

Please explain why the majority has the right to tell minorities to follow "the solution" so that the majority doesn't get upset.

J/c
Everyone is missing the point.
As it stands,Mayfield is a bad QB on a bad football team.
Nationally,people could care less if he sticks the flag where the sun doesn't shine,and I'm there with them.
If Brady or Rodgers or Wilson has something to say about the issue,that's news.This guy and the Nascar guy,the 1st question asked is Who?
Be successful,win some football games.In the meantime just shut up and avoid the spotlight for once in your life.

I never said the majority should tell the minority how to go about protesting. As a matter of fact, Fate didn't say that either. I actually agree in theory with what you are saying (I don't agree with innocent people getting hurt in the process). I don't think I have any right to tell the minority how to protest. It's almost like me telling them how to feel. I don't have any right to do that because I've never walked a mile in their shoes. But even if someone disagreed with that, I don't know how coming at them aggressively is going to help them understand the other side. I don't know how that is going to drive progress.

So you're asking the wrong person.

I guess I`ll leave it with this. Do you think your methods are working? Maybe some posters will come forward and say so. But if they don't and you truly want to be a part of the solution, maybe consider a different approach. If you care as much as you say you do, you owe it to yourself to take stock of whether it's working or not.

Maybe is I explain why I stand, you will see why people find it disrespectful.

I stand for my father, who served in the Navy during viet nam. I stand for my grandfather (army) who fought in the European and Pacific theaters in WWII. I stand for t he black soldier that carried my grandfather to an aid station, probably saving his life and changing his mind on race. I stand for my other grandfather who was unable to serve, but voluntarily housed soldiers awaiting orders. I stand for the vet I saw stand for the anthem during the bicentennial. He had one leg and stood with assistance from another soldier. I stand for my ancestors that fought in the revolutionary war, the civil war, WWI, WWII, korea, and nam. And finally, I stand for those that never came back from 'over there', and those that came back and never recovered. Being raised in a military family, the only real excuse for not standing is being physically unable to stand. This country might not be perfect, but we were given a country we can always make better. We should all be thankful we live in a country we can improve. So many others don't have that.

As others have said, if it's not about the flag, then why do the protest when the flag is most prominent in people's minds? I see this protest as a stunt to get the most attention, and I find it disrespectful to all that have fought for the rest of us.

j/c:

I think every person in the United States has the right to protest against things they disagree with.

However, I think they should do it on their own time. Attend public protests. Lobby for change when they are not working.

I do NOT think that folks should protest while working.

I was a teacher. I had one of my all-time favorite students raped and murdered by 3 gang members in E. Cleveland. That was in January. In February, we celebrated Black History Month daily. I felt like protesting against the gangs that continually murdered, raped, sold drugs, etc on a daily basis. I was not afforded my right to protest because I was working.

I watch sports because it is entertainment. The professional sport's leagues acknowledge that their product is entertainment. One of the reasons I love watching sports is because it is not political or religious. I don't want to be preached to on what to believe on either subject. I want to get away from all the extremist idiocy that always follows political and religious conversations and just freaking enjoy the game. I ain't paying you to tell me your political views. I'm paying to watch you perform.

If you want to speak politically, do it on your own damn time. Talk to reporters. Go on TV. Attend political demonstrations. Give speeches. More power to you and your cause. But don't bring your political agenda to your job that is all about entertainment.

Thank you sir .