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Baker never played in Hue Jackson's system. This is true, but he did have to study it and learn it to be prepared. Then he has to forget it and learn the others that were thrown at him. That takes time and dedication. Baker’s first OC was Haley, then Freddie, then whatever Freddie’s system was last year, and now Stefanski. Hue was never Baker’s OC. Thats fair. I forgot that Kizer was the one that ran Hue's plays. Thank you for the correction
“It doesn't make sense to hire smart people and tell them what to do; we hire smart people so they can tell us what to do.” -Steve Jobs.
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1st Head Coach - Hue
2nd Head Coach - G Williams
3rd Head Coach - Freddie
4th Head Coach - Stefanski
I don't care how many guys called plays...that's (4) different #1 guys-in-charge...and is outlandish. How many QBs in modern history have had to deal with that?
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He better show something this year or else!
That's our fans perspective and the national media's.
Meanwhile, Darnold, who sees ghosts, and has nowhere near the number of big plays as Baker, has a bright future according to the national media.
Lot of stupidity and personal bias going on.
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That's obvious after reading your post.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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People love a train wreck. We've been that train wreck. People want us to continue being that train wreck.
This could have been a great year for us. Losing this season affects us more than almost any other team I feel.
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You are a train wreck until you're not a train wreck.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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People love a train wreck. We've been that train wreck. People want us to continue being that train wreck.
This could have been a great year for us. Losing this season affects us more than almost any other team I feel. Be careful, you'll start a new conspiracy theory that Corona was created by the NFL to deny Cleveland what could be it's best team in years. 
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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People love a train wreck. We've been that train wreck. People want us to continue being that train wreck.
This could have been a great year for us. Losing this season affects us more than almost any other team I feel. Be careful, you'll start a new conspiracy theory that Corona was created by the NFL to deny Cleveland what could be it's best team in years. I’ll definitely be using this excuse on FB this year if we have no football.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
- Theodore Roosevelt
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Thats playcallers not systems mouth ...
Haleys system ... year 1 .. first half of the year ,,
Freddie’s version of Haleys system ... year 1 ... second half of year ..
Freddie’s system ... year 2 ...
Thats 2 play callers ... 3 systems ...
tabber your boy played for Hue as a HC ... Hue never called plays for Bake or was his OC ... for whatever reason Hue decided or had it shoved down his throat that it was Haley’s O and Haley’s alone ... Year 1 Kitchens used Haley's system and modified it. (no change) Year 2 Kitchens made Monken learn that same system last year and modified it. It was still the same system... (no change) https://www.espn.com/blog/cleveland-brow...innovative-lookThe Browns will keep the same system and terminology; that continuity is key for a team that for so long has relied on restarts. Monken will learn the system Kitchens used, as opposed to the team learning Monken’s. "He understands that him learning something new is a hell of a lot better and easier than 90 other guys learning what to do," Kitchens said. Year 3 We are now on system #2
Meh.
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No change ...  ...
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I'll give my opinion on this.
--Baker never played in Hue's system. Including him is unfair.
--Baker played in Haley's system when Haley and Hue were still there. That's one.
--Baker never played in G. Williams system. Listing him is unfair.
--Baker played in Haley's system when Freddie replaced the former. If I recall correctly, Freddie kept the system, but asked the players which plays, formations, packages they preferred. Freddie did not bring in a new system. He did run more 21 Personnel and used max protection, but it was still Haley's offense. Thus, I am saying we are one.
--Here is where I disagree w/super. Freddie did change the offense when he became the HC. His offense most closely resembled Arians' offense. He ran a ton of 11 Personnel at the beginning of the year. At the time, it was the most widely used package in the NFL. By far. Not sure if it still is because I haven't looked recently. A lot of teams were trying to do what the Rams were doing. So, it's not as "stupid" as some folks make it out to be. Trouble is that you need a really smart qb and an excellent OL. We had neither. Freddie did add more 12 and 13 personnel as the season went on, but I think this was a new system from the Haley offense of Baker's rookie year.
While there are similarities between what Haley was doing in Baker's rookie year and Freddie's offense of last year, I would still categorize them as different. Also, I do not believe that Freddie brought in a new offense when he took over after Haley was fired.
So, thus far, Baker has played in two systems. Not one. Not three. And certainly not four.
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The bottom line is there's been too much change in two seasons. The Browns are a model of instability. Nothing is ever likely to turn around until the Browns achieve some stability, regardless of the players.
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The bottom line is there's been too much change in two seasons. I would change the part about two seasons to "...since 1999."
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1. Haley's application of O
2. Freddie's application of O 2018
3. Freddie's retarded application of O 2019
Can anyone doubt Freddie was a different creature 2018 to 2019? Moncken was a non-factor as far as I can see.
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Your right in that Freddie didn’t bring in an entirely new O when he took over for Haley half way through the year .... but u couldn’t convince me in a million years it wasn’t much different from the one Haley ran just based off results ... Bake didn’t all of a sudden “get it” over the bye week ... there were MAJOR CHANGES made or the small ones Freddie made paid HUGE DIVIDENDS cause Bake played much better in Freddie’s version of Haley’s O then he did in Haley’s version of Haley’s O ..
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If you watched the games and say that there was 'no change' pre and post Haley, and then no change again from Freddie to Freddie/Monken... then there's just not enough common ground to have a productive conversation.
"FIALURE IS NOT AN OPTION...!"
-mac
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Here is an excerpt from an article that was written at the time of the switch. I'll post the link and you can read the entire thing because the rest of it is interesting, too. I can look for further examples of what I was talking about if you still don't believe me. Kitchens intends to run the same scheme deployed by Haley.
"We are running the same system as we ran before. We are not changing systems. Todd and I have the same system. He brought me up in this system. Nothing is going to change from that standpoint. What I hope we are able to do and hope to accomplish is that we are able to execute better and do the things the way that we are supposed to do them, how we are supposed to do them and when we are supposed to do them. If we do all of those things and have good communication in doing that, we will be successful. When we are successful, that is what has happened. When we are not successful, that is not what has happened. It is a pretty simple game if you go from the standpoint of communicate it, know what you are doing, know when you are doing it and know how you are doing it, and then you will be successful.”
There will be emphasis on the blocking and protection issues that have plagued team this season.
“Definitely first and foremost, we need to get better technically up front. (Offensive line coach) Bob Wylie and Hut (offensive line assistant coach Mark Hutson) have done a good job of trying to increase our left tackle’s (OL Desmond Harrison) upward motion, but he is a young guy now. You are talking about a quarterback that is young in the National Football League. This is a left tackle that is young in the National Football League that is going to be a very good player one day. We just need to continue to get him better and better with his technique and stuff like that and help him when we can. If they do not want you to help him, they can eliminate that. We are cognizant of that, also. Nothing beats getting better, and that is what we are trying to get done across the board. At the left guard, the left tackle, the right guard, the right tackle, the center and the running back, everybody is trying to get better. More importantly, everybody is trying to keep their head down and worry about what they have to do to get better.”
The main priority is ensuring rookie quarterback Baker Mayfield stays upright.
“I think that is of the utmost importance. We want all of our players to see growth from everything from the line, to the receivers, to the backs, and of course, the quarterback. The quarterback’s learning curve and the pictures in his head have to increase. I think Baker has done a very good job. People are going to make adjustments to him, and he is making adjustments, also. It is a big deal to play quarterback in the National Football League. You can’t just roll somebody out there and do it. He is going to have some learning curves, too, that he has to get through. He is doing a good job of working. All we want out of Baker and out of everybody around him is to keep their head down, work continually every day and try to get a little better every day. That has been our mantra since we have been here, and it is going to continue to be out mantra. Just get a little bit better every day and then look up in three, four, five, six weeks and see where you are.”
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I believe in Baker, I think he got drunk on his own success last year. I also think the offense was a disaster, guys were hurt, it was a perfect storm of garbage.
I think this year can be much, much better.
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Saying "same system" does not exclude tweaks and changes which result in different results. I just can't get over the change in Kitchens from one year to the next. Murphy's Law must have engaged. Possibly another year at OC would have made a big difference, but then you have the dynamic of who would be at HC. Would Williams have kept Freddie? Would Freddie have accepted THAT set-up? I don't believe a new HC would have kept the same system.
It was a cascading roll of fail. And then add the sub-par results ON the field for whatever reasons. It seems the Stefanski era is the new direction that will change the Browns trajectory. Lord I hope so.
One other thought: If you had told me beforethe 2019 season that we would wind up with two 1,000+ yards receivers and one 1,000 yard rusher I would have said, "Great year coming!" lol
Last edited by TrooperDawg; 07/21/20 10:37 AM.
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It has nothing to do with believing u or not believing u ... your not a liar .. i trust u ... we don’t agree on this ... its not an indictment of your character its simply a disagreement .... i could care less what Freddie said, I’m basing my opinion on what i saw and the huge productivity differences in Bake and our O after Freddie took over ...
The results sure didn’t look anything like the O Haley ran once Freddie took over ...
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j/c...
I don't think it matters how many "systems" we've had. Trying to decide what constitutes a system change, or how drastic the changes were, is simply quibbling over semantics.
The fact of the matter is that it's always "change, change and more change" in Cleveland. It's not easy for Baker, not east for the rest of the players and coaches, not easy for anyone.
WE (as an organization) jumped the shark last year because of arrogance and a unsubstantiated belief that we had so much talent - the details would work themselves out. They didn't.
We can institute any offense we want to, over time there will be success. The path from point A to point B is where the rubber meets the road. In my book, young players and new coaches means that charting the path is more critical than the scheme itself.
Last year we tried to roll out an elaborate offensive scheme before the season. Monken called it a "work in progress" and said: “I think we have an idea because we are doing the install,” Monken said on knowing what the offense will look like in Week 1. “We are on install five. We go through eight installs. I would think that through eight installs, you would have an idea."
Yeah? Well, NO. We didn't seem to have a clue - let alone an "idea".
Trying to install a complex offense before the season, with a young QB, and all new coaches, new players, etc... is like trying to learn accounting from a self-help book. How about just learning math first, dingbats.
I'm no expert on Xs and Os, but wouldn't it make more sense to work in phases rather than cram everything into the heads of players trying to "unlearn" what they learned the year before?
We had the perfect opportunity, Freddie had chemistry with Baker, Baker was playing "paper, scissors, rock" with defenses. I'm not saying that was sustainable in the long term, but it was something to build on. We didn't build on anything. We started over. I watched it - we tried to jump the shark.
Last edited by FATE; 07/21/20 11:32 AM.
HERE WE GO BROWNIES! HERE WE GO!!
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It's hard to communicate on here. Of course, there was a big jump in production. I'm just saying that it was the same offense. Freddie just tweaked it to fit the needs of Baker and the team. He didn't bring in a new system that year.
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j/c...
There are facts/stats that can be made for all opinions I guess.
Well my opinion is Baker is a Franchise QB and we are lucky to have him. It just behooves me why would anyone try to make a case on him being a bust from one season. Here are the facts I would like to present.
1. Baker has had 4 HC in this his 3rd upcoming season.
2. Baker has had 4 Play books in this his 3rd upcoming season.
3. Baker broke rookie records for TDs in his 2018 season.
4. In his 2nd season an off season for Baker still he had the first time in Browns history to have 2 WRs with 1,000 yards.
We can only hope that he will be in this OFFENSIVE SYSTEM for many years to come. Say what you must but this kid is one of the most accurate QBs in the NFL. He also has one of the strongest arms in the NFL. Again the Browns are lucky to have him. He always ends up on top and I just cannot wait to see this happen for the Browns! Instead of the Eeyore attitude I instead am looking forward to our bright future.
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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i have another question.....
what happens if Baker (hopefully) completely balls out of control?
would it be realistic to extend him after this season? or are we most likely gonna wait until after his 4th year?
just wondering what would be better for cap purposes. i said at the start of the offseason i think baker would have a bounce back year and ball. Mahomes just has me thinking how other GM's are gonna attack QB contracts.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
- Theodore Roosevelt
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I think that depends on how much the team believes in him and what goes on behind the scenes that fans don't see. Is he a hard worker? Is he smart? Does he pick up what he's being taught? Is he a leader? Do his teammates respond to him?
If he checks all those boxes and balls out, I think you have to consider it. If he checks all those boxes and has an average season, I still think you have to consider it. If even one of those boxes he doesn’t check, I don't think you extend him until he proves it for multiple seasons.
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If you have a good QB you should extend them as early as possible.
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If you watched the games and say that there was 'no change' pre and post Haley, and then no change again from Freddie to Freddie/Monken... then there's just not enough common ground to have a productive conversation. All I was saying... the system was the same. the verbiage etc. Now the plays that were called and modified.... completely different. It would have been better (Mo Carthon better) if Freddie had just put his own playbook in place. However, I would bet all of the money he didn't have one. We basically asked the loading dock assistant manager at the Amazon Distribution Center in Euclid to run all of Amazon's operations across North America because he packed all of the trucks while Greg Williams was busying making the team look and act like a real team and producing a winning record. We find new ways to lose. It never ceases to amaze me.
Meh.
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People love a train wreck. We've been that train wreck. People want us to continue being that train wreck.
This could have been a great year for us. Losing this season affects us more than almost any other team I feel. Be careful, you'll start a new conspiracy theory that Corona was created by the NFL to deny Cleveland what could be it's best team in years. I’ll definitely be using this excuse on FB this year if we have no football. Furthermore, they created the virus in order to give the Steelers a free year to find the heir to Big Ben.
"Hey, I'm a reasonable guy. But I've just experienced some very unreasonable things."
-Jack Burton
-It looks like the Harvard Boys know what they are doing after all.
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Looks like he trimmed down some - maybe 10 or 15 lbs. Now if he can stop air-mailing passes by throwing off his back foot ... even better.
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Heavy Question for the Browns and every one of their fans:
"Are we controlling every possible part of the game that we can?"
Win.
"Every responsibility implies opportunity, and every opportunity implies responsibility." Otis Allen Glazebrook, 1880
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Maybe he'll look different with pads on with a picture from last year side-by-side, but I can't see much of a difference from that video.
"FIALURE IS NOT AN OPTION...!"
-mac
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Maybe he'll look different with pads on with a picture from last year side-by-side, but I can't see much of a difference from that video. I saw a picture somewhere recently, and he's DEFINITELY shredded weight. I'll see if I can find it, but if you can't trust someone on Dawgtalkers, who can you trust? Meanwhile I found this from a month ago: https://heavy.com/sports/2020/06/baker-mayfield-workout-new-look/
Last edited by TrooperDawg; 07/24/20 10:50 AM.
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It's been all that exercise in the back of the Cheesecake Factory.
At DT, context and meaning are a scarecrow kicking at moving goalposts.
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j/c:
I am pretty sure that Baker worked out in a gym last year, too. He isn't very tall and I don't think getting more muscle bound or thicker is the best thing for a qb.
I think it is good if he did lose weight, but I hope he is working more on his footwork and mechanics than anything else.
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j/c:
I am pretty sure that Baker worked out in a gym last year, too. He isn't very tall and I don't think getting more muscle bound or thicker is the best thing for a qb.
I think it is good if he did lose weight, but I hope he is working more on his footwork and mechanics than anything else. The very thing Alex Van Pelt has made a priority this offseason. They’re working hard to see you’re placated.
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They’re working hard to see you’re placated. Why this personal dig? Did I say anything offensive towards you?
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j/c:
I am pretty sure that Baker worked out in a gym last year, too. He isn't very tall and I don't think getting more muscle bound or thicker is the best thing for a qb.
I think it is good if he did lose weight, but I hope he is working more on his footwork and mechanics than anything else. The very thing Alex Van Pelt has made a priority this offseason. They’re working hard to see you’re placated.
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The biggest problem with Mayfield is he can't read Zone Defense.
Most of Mayfields rookie success was based on 1 read throws. It seems if that read isn't open he struggles, and zone defense is good for taking those 1st read options away.
From what I can gather, it doesn't appear Mayfield thinks he needs any help. He says he knows exactly what he needs to do, etc, etc...
I think Keenum will be playing this year sooner rather than later...you don't sign a guy to that kinda money to be a backup. also, Keenun has a 90+ QBR in 2 of the last 3 years, which puts him in the "above average" QB category. It should be Baker should being the one having to beat him out for the job, not the other way around.
We would probably win more games with Keenum as QB...his 2017 season is what he can do with talent around him, Keenum will get Beckham and Landry the ball i assure you...but i fully expect to be stuck with Mayfield's trash for a few weeks if we have a season.
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DawgTalkers.net
Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Greg Cosell on Baker and the
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