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OverToad, now critique Droughns, like you do Frye.
Oh wait, you can't. Because everything is Frye's fault. It's Frye's fault Droughns fumbled. It's Frye's fault Droughns averages 2 yards a carry. It's Frye's fault Braylon dropped another ball. It's Frye's fault that Frye had a 109 QB Rating against the Falcons, yet Droughns still couldn't run the ball.
Now go blame Frye for Droughns averaging 2 yards a carry again.
OverToad you are why Frye has 3 wins on the road and only 2 at home. It's fans like you why the Browns stink at home.
When we had Peterson, you wanted Couch
When we had Couch, you wanted Holcomb
When we had Holcomb, you wanted Garcia
When we had Garcia, you wanted Dilfer
When we had Dilfer, you wanted Frye
When we have Frye, you want Quinn
It's fans like you why the Browns play better on the road than they do at home. Yes, the fans make the Browns stink at home. <img src="/images/graemlins/rolleyes1.gif" alt="" /> Give me a break.
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LOL, you're not only taking shots at him, but taking his statements out of context. He was responding to someone asking if that sack was really a safety and Frye was trying to be PC in his answer. Constructive criticism? <img src="/images/graemlins/rofl.gif" alt="" /> Constructive is hardly the term used when someone has made up their mind too quickly and points out only what validates their own premature conclusions, Toad.
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[color:"white"]Danglet, what he did on those plays are what's expected of him. I'm not going to pat him on the back for the good plays, call it progress, and call it a day. It's not his good plays that are the focus, it's the bad ones. Now B, you can call it out of context when you want, but there isn't a question asked where the answer of "I didn't know where I was at" can be taken as anything but worrisome. He damn-well better know where he's at when throwing from the goalline, and he damn-well better feel the pressure, know that he can't hold the ball too long like he's done all season, and make the smart play of getting rid of the skin. That's constructive criticism, even if it's in harsh words. Do you, as a coach, pat your kids hand and poo-poo mistakes? <img src="/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> Nah, I didn't think so. Bashing is: Frye sucks and he'll never amount to anything. That isn't what's going on here. When the day is done, we won the game. But the discussion is about Frye. He completed a high percentage of his passes which was the positive, but the negatives are still 2 fumbles, both lost, an ill-advised throw to Winslow and a very poor decision to hold onto the ball too long at his own goalline. If he does that every game, we don't win most of those games. As noted in the title, the jury is still out, and the reasons listed above are why. Not once have I said he'll never make it, and no amount of spin can change that.[/color]
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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j/c
This argument is reminicent of so many others. To many, it's just black and white. Or............Frye is great/Frye sucks.
I gave Charlie high praise earlier in the year. His playmaking ability, mobility, short memory after mistakes, leadership, menality, are all huge positives.
He then went through a stretch where I saw some legitmate concerns. His accuracy is still a big issue w/me. He sometimes holds the ball too long. He sometimes forces throws. It appears he doesn't always see the field. He occasionally rolls to the wrong side of the field instead of stepping up in the pocket. He needed to throw the ball away more.
Yesterday, I saw improvement. The kid is still young. He is still playing w/an inferior offensive line and a RB who should not be the feature back. His best receivers run the wrong routes on occasion. Edwards doesn't fight for the ball
Those problems are real. They would hinder any young qb.
Charlie made some strides yesterday. He can still make it in this league. He can be good enough to lead us deep into the playoffs provided he has good talent around him. However, he still needs to keep improving. He still has weaknesses.
I think it is too early to judge him a success or a failure. I also don't believe his problems or his attributes are as clear-cut as many make them out to be.
The truth is somewhere in between.
"What lies behind us and what lies before us are small matters compared to what lies within us."
--Ralph Waldo Emerson
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Is it just me, or does Frye's release seem odd? It's almost as though he's pushing the ball instead of throwing it nope....looks just like a shot put...like he's pushing the ball upward...
Attitude is everything....FEAR THE ELF!!!
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[color:"white"]Danglet, what he did on those plays are what's expected of him. I'm not going to pat him on the back for the good plays, call it progress, and call it a day. It's not his good plays that are the focus, it's the bad ones.[/color] I agree that he still isn't "good enough" and needs to continue to improve, but to allow no credit for progress and to imply that somehow improvement=spectacular in your world? Improvement is making fewer mistakes and better decisions in my world - kinda like what he did yesterday. Every QB makes "mistakes" every game. No exceptions.
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[color:"orange"]Versatile,
That's a real solid post from you, if I remember correctly you've been hard on Frye the past couple weeks, good to see you're a solid enough individual to give the kid credit when he deserves it.
[/color]
[color:"white"]
Go Browns
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j/c Didn't think this was a "basher" case with Charlie, but now I'm not so sure with the "moving bar" syndrome surfacing. You guys wanted improvement - now its consistency over several games? <img src="/images/graemlins/saywhat.gif" alt="" /> This thread didn't even have time to drop out of context before the criteria started changing. Giving the kid a hard time about a performance like yesterday does nothing but undermine the arguments against him that ARE valid. If I'm being critical of Frye, a growing NFL QB, I give the kid credit for a solid game. I commend him on his showing improvements in some key areas of his game and I officially inform him that the bar has been raised. Regressing is not an option. He needs to maintain that level of play and continue to improve over the next 7 games. You keep asking for improvement, but when you get it the focus is still on a hand-full of plays he could have done better on. <img src="/images/graemlins/saywhat.gif" alt="" /> No mention of him using a pump fake to freeze the safety for a long completion. No mention of him balling up in the 4th to get us into field-goal range. No mention of him getting rid of the ball under pressure in the 4th to keep us in field goal range. No mention of him finally having a game with few to no forced balls. Perfect - heck no. Better - without a doubt. This whole debate just lost most of its intrigue. Jury's still out on the kid where most are concerned, but its becoming apparent that some just aren't going to be happy with the kid at QB. Exactly OverToad and others hate Frye and will never be satisfied. Frye was 16 of 22 throwing but they harp on 3 plays where he wasn't perfect. Sorry OverToad but I'm pretty sure Tom Brady wasn't perfect on every play of a game. Yet he has 3 Super Bowl Rings. Maybe if your boy Droughns would run for more than 60 yards in a game then we could actually get into 3rd and 2's instead of 3 and 8's. I just find it amazing how OverToad blames Frye for all the problems on the team. According to him, we'd be 9-0 right now if we had Peyton Manning, and Rueben Droughns would be running for 150 yards a game. It's amazing how he blames Frye for Droughns lack of production this year. It's a TEAM game OverToad. Frye makes plays and mistakes Droughns makes plays and mistakes Edwards makes plays and mistakes Fraley makes plays and mistakes Tucker makes plays and mistakes Winslow makes plays and mistakes Yet, you blame Frye for everyone's mistakes, including the defenses'.
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[color:"white"]
He completed a high percentage of his passes which was the positive, but the negatives are still 2 fumbles,
[/color] Frye had two fumbles yesterday? Never knew that, I thought it was one. The other fumble you are blaming on Frye (typical of you, you blame everything on Frye) was by your favorite player that seems to do no wrong in your mind, Reuben Droughns. Droughns' fumble was much more costly seeing that we were in FG range. Why don't you harp on Droughns fumbling the ball? Oh that's right, you have a crush on Droughns.
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Actually Frye fumbled running towards the goalline (1), but quickly recovered. And he fumbled while trying to throw that Hail Mary (2), that ended up being a fun little game of lateral the ball, and give at least three Cleveland fans around the country a heart attack.
I could almost hear the collective "phew" when Deangelo Hall was knocked out of bounds to end the half.
Last edited by Tyler_Derden; 11/13/06 07:16 PM.
I wish to wash my Irish wristwatch......
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Actually Frye fumbled running towards the goalline [color:"orange"]That was a fumble? When he stretched the ball out after he was down and it hit the ground and bounced out of his hands? It wasnt, you understand why now?[/color]
[color:"white"]
Go Browns
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Well, I thought that was the second fumble, but apparently, he lost two fumbles?
I know the Hail Mary one, but when was the other one?
I wish to wash my Irish wristwatch......
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[color:"orange"]I only counted one...? I could be mistaken...havent been able to rewatch the game yet...
Who said he lost two fumbles? [/color]
[color:"white"]
Go Browns
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According to NFL.com Charlie Frye lost 2 fumbles against the Falcons. FUM LOST REC YDS C. Frye 2 2 0 0 Link it up
Last edited by Tyler_Derden; 11/13/06 07:28 PM.
I wish to wash my Irish wristwatch......
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[color:"orange"]Actually it was an error by NFL. com in their game stats. Frye only fumbled once...and lost it. There was no 2nd fumble. Their game stat data show Frye w/2 fumbles - hope all you fantasy guys get that straight...lol <img src="/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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However, to me, most QB's in this league are cognizent of the fact they are on the goalline, and know not to hold onto the ball. It's constructive criticism, nothing more. 1. You could not see where the WR were on the TV. 2. The pocket was pushed in from the sides - could not run outside the pocket 3. May not have felt comfortable throwing the ball away as it could have resulted in intentional grounding in the endzone - a safety 4. He didn't want to force a ball that would be picked for a TD. I guess it all depends on where you stand on Frye though <img src="/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />
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Just how many times did Toad stuff you in your locker and take your milk money <img src="/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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I really want to see Charlie kick Bens butt..
I beleive the jury will wait to debate untill after the Tampa Bay game...If the jury has any sense...
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[color:"white"]The jury should wait until at least the season is over and look at his body of work, but that shouldn't preclude criticism and speculation.[/color]
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Spoken like a true lawyer. I just hope the jury members aren't chosen from Dawg Talk <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
Blue ostriches on crack float on milkshakes between the sidewalk titans of gurglefitz. --YTown
#gmstrong
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OT, you are so much better than this. Are you SERIOUSLY saying that taking a comment out of context means what was said is inexcusable? Someone asked Charlie if he thought the play was a safety. His response was PC, nothing more. To reach beyond that is nothing more than self serving to the decision you've already come up with. This isn't a case of Frye not being aware of the situation, but a response to a totally unrelated question. There is a difference between concern about Frye's abilities and his development (which almost everyone has including me) and reading way too much into something inconsequential because you've come to a conclusion and want to validate it.
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[color:"white"]Poor choice of words on your part B. I haven't come to a conclusion, therefore I have nothing to validate. If anything, my TRUE conclusion is that it's too early to judge Frye, and talk of replacing him right now is premature.
Now, if taking his comments by the letter of what he said is one thing, taking their meaning is another. I see it differently, nothing more. Honestly, even if it was PC........nevermind. Doesn't matter. He's got enough game to stick, but he's got a long way to go. [/color]
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Actually, I was choosing my words based on you posting a couple weeks ago that you didn't think Frye was going to make it. If you've changed your stance again, that's fine, Mr. Kerry <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
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[color:"white"]That's awfully black and white. I still don't think Frye will make it, but I can admit that I'm prejudging, and that he deserves more time.
I didn't like Couch when he first came into the league, but thought he deserved a couple of years to prove my beliefs to be false. After his 3rd year, I'd had enough.
As long as Frye makes strides I'll be happy. If he ends this year doing the same stuff he did last year I'll be very close to giving up on him, and will probably want a backup plan on the team next year.
There's a difference between not believing in a guy and totally writing him off.[/color]
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Actually, I was choosing my words based on you posting a couple weeks ago that you didn't think Frye was going to make it. If you've changed your stance again, that's fine, Mr. Kerry <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> [color:"orange"]I'm going to defend Toady here... I dont think he's ever said Frye shouldnt be given more time, if he has I've never read it. Also, I dont think his opinion has or should change just yet. The Atlanta game was an improvement, but the jury's still out...which takes us back to the thread title.[/color]
[color:"white"]
Go Browns
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[color:"white"]Alllllllllright Mav. Where do I have to send the damned check? <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> [/color]
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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There's a difference between not believing in a guy and totally writing him off. In normal circles that statement holds true. The problem here is this place isn't normal. Around here,unless you have Frye posters plastered on your bedroom walls, you hate the guy. <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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I think that Frye has shown enough to warrant an extended look, but there are holes in his game. The number of fumbles, sacks and ints need to be reduced. It is very hard for Frye to control those things, given the poor protection offered by the OL. I think that he is finding out that the NFL allow for less improvisation when plays break down than college.
A couple of things that seem to be falling by the wayside, is the question regarding armstrength, which appears to be adequate.
He does have superior mobility, and appears to be a tough competitor. I would like to see him in 4th quarter behind by 3 to 7 situation, the New Orleans game was one where the team self destructed.
I think most tend to forget that he is a second year player. In reality, as a 3rd round QB he probably should not have started a game as of yet.
Many want to judge him as if this is the finished product, and it really is not case.
Welcome back, Joe, we missed you!
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Around here,unless you have Frye posters plastered on your bedroom walls, you hate the guy. So did you put your fat head up yet?
Blue ostriches on crack float on milkshakes between the sidewalk titans of gurglefitz. --YTown
#gmstrong
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Lets steer this ship in a slightly different direction..there's been much said about IF FRYE isn't the guy..but now lets just take a brief moment and discuss if he gets another year to show his wares..
What do the BROWNS do for a backup?
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What do the BROWNS do for a backup? To be honest, I don't know that we would have to do anything. Anderson and Dorsey are back-up material and probably know it. It is probably just as important having players satisfied with that role as having someone who is good....if that makes any sense. If the guy is too good, he is going to want to start, get frustrated, and eventually leave. Part of what makes a back-up good is his knowing the O inside and out. Plus, we haven't really seen much of either. If frye has the ability to improve, so do those guys since they are about as experienced as Charlie. If something better falls in our laps....sure, you make a play, but i don't think he really have to seek anything better. JMO
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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Thought someone would take that stance..so let me go there. LETS say that Frye improves enough that he can take us to the playoffs..so up to that point Rac is EXPECTING to win week in and week out with CF..NOW HE GOES down with a injury.. We still have expectations to continue to WIN...U think Dorsey/Anderson can come in and sustain the offense to produce WINS ? Not in my book..they are there to run a few plays and thats it..neither has the ability to carry the team. I know Dorsey doesn't have any ability to be a # 1 QB in a pinch..he's a stiff and has LESS talent than Frye <img src="/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> I don't know what Anderson has, but I do know I don't WANT either at the helm in the future.
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I am not going to disagree other than to say we probably aren't at that point yet.
I suppose the ideal would be to draft a kid with talent and let him develop behind Charlie.
If Frye does improve to the degree you pose in this hypothetical question, sure, go out and find some vet who is on his last tour of the league as insurance.
I guess it is like real insurance.....if you have a $60,000 house, you insure that amount. If it is a $600,000 house, you increase the amount.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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Frye can't carry the team either - possibly never will and arguably was never intended to.
Very few teams in the league can lose a starting QB and not be impacted.
Peen's point is valid. Our QB isn't going to be a super-star, so the caliber of the backup can only be so high before they start thinking about starting.
I also wouldn't look at anything at the QB position unless something falls in our lap.
Who's running the offense next year might impact this topic significantly.
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I am one of those firm believers in developing career backups. While most teams now days go for the aged vet or rook to be your #2, I think you take a kid like anderson and sign him to a 7 year deal. He may never be a star but he could learn the scheme and operate the offense.
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What do you see in Mr.Anderson that makes you want to sign him long term?
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Improvement. Its about that simple. You want a guy that you can coach and teach. I am not saying he will ever be a competent starter but more of the kind of guy that can throw 15 times a game and just manage the scheme. That also requires running the same scheme for more than a year.
I like this route because if your starter goes down, you arent dummying down the offense or asking a young kid to carry the load. He will have run this same scheme every day in practice. camp
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I don't know how anyone can judge what Anderson can or can't do ???? How can you when he never gets palying time .. I'm sorry , but practise only tells you so much ! <img src="/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />
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[color:"white"] He will have run this same scheme every day in practice. camp [/color] or a different scheme every two years. <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> i agree with alot of what you say and also believe that a late 1st or early 2nd day pick like frye is where you'll find the best ones. they have the skills to go higher in the draft and will be alot better chance in finding a good one.
tradition can only carry you so far, then you have to start winning again.
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well we are talking backup not starter. how often do u see teams have to use that inexperienced rookie qb or a vet off the streets because their starter goes down?
If u think u can make the kid into a long term backup you go for it. only thing u can go by is what u see in camp and preseason. The coaches get to see him work everyday in practice but we arent that privileged.
Anderson has improved a great deal since college to now. I wouldnt want him starting but the more time he spends the better he will be. The longer he is here the more he will mastery the scheme and thats 90% of the battle. He may not fit in another scheme but develop him to run our scheme.
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Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Jury still out on Frye, Savage in
same boat
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