DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Defense...Where do we go from here?

thank you but considering his measurables are better than Hanford Dixon are best ever DB you can understand why I made that statement.

Is Greedy made out of glass? Can't beat the "Bust" debate on the bench. I had high hopes with him and Delpit available this year. Seems like all that has come to mean is next year will be better. We need some guys to play; I respect injuries, and hope they all return 100%. But show us results. The answer to the topic is that this disappointing defense certainly has upside for its next moves.

1. His measurables WERE better at one point.

2. Measurables as compared to someone that played 30 years ago means pretty much nothing.

3. He blew out his Achilles. It is FAR from certain that he will be able to play well enough to be a starter on this team, much less have a lasting career. It is far more likely that he will - at a minimum - simply NOT be as good as he was. The only real question is to what degree his abilities are diminished.

Saying that he WILL be anything is nothing but optimism and has no real basis in his current state.

I don't know... Greedy is an enigma.

Injured easily last year and then missing half the season this year with another injury from nowhere. It doesn't look good for him, that's for sure. Add in that he wasn't remotely as impressive as Ward was his rookie year and he struggled a bit and it isn't looking like the best selection we've ever made. It's probably way too early to label him a Bust, but we should definitely still be looking to add additional talent in the secondary to hedge our future.

The end result is that between him and Delpit, we have half our should-have-been-touted secondary unavailable. Those two guys with Ward SHOULD HAVE been formidable with a solid pass rush in front of them.

Instead, Pass Defense is probably the single biggest defects on this team.

j/c Denzel Ward:

Rookie year... only played 8 games
second year only played 12 games

absolutely stud!!

Greddy Williams
Rookie year... played 12 games
sophmore year... missed 8 games (so far)

the next Courtney Brown?

Denzel is stud because he's been able to get on the field and stay there this year, but he was in the exact same shoes last year when he went out. It was absolutely a "here we go again".

The difference here is that Ward now has 18 games in a row of playing, and has played at a high level the entire time.

Greedy has only participated in 50% of the games during his career thus far and the current streak is one of missing games and is only two games shy of last year's streak of being able to play, and when he played, he wasn't up to Ward's level.

So, yeah, when you look at "what have you done for me lately", it isn't a good look for Greedy.

to be fair, purple, Denzel was the #1 cb in the draft and picked in the top 5. Greedy was a mid 2nd round pick. I am not sure if any corners were picked ahead of him. So it would be rather surprising if greedy were performing at the same level. The injuries are a concern but hard to tell if it has been a fluke or it will be a chronic.

There has been a lot of talk on here about whether we should pick up baker’s option for year 5. We have to make the same call on Denzel and sign nick to an extension. Berry is going to earn his salary this offseason.

Okay.

Defense blows, Kirksey was a decent piece when healthy, which was almost never. Good guy, but I’d forgotten about him already.

save for Ward, our back end mostly sucks, We are lucky if we force a punt, for gawd’s sake.

Kirksey was definitely decent, but two years in a row of torn pecs at his salary was sustainable. We need his level of play as our minimum standard.

Food for thought on our Defense this offseason:

Sheldon Richardson is going into his dreaded year 31. He is also on the last year of his contract and has already done the 1-year "rent-a-hulk" contracts that guys like Ndamunkong Sue now find themselves doing.

We all know that the 2021 cap will likely not exceed 180 million, so I doubt he would look forward to being released and try to sign a (likely) 8 million dollar 1-year deal (the same contract that Sue is signing year after year since his year 32).

Soooo...he's due 13.67 million in 2021. If released he would likely only be able to make "maybe" 23-24 million over the 2021-2023 league years.

Heck, if we kept him and paid him the 13.67, in 2022 he stills goes to rent-a-hulk status and makes, whet...15-16 million in total for 2022 and 2023?? That's still at best 29 million in 3 years for him.

Why don't we restructure his contract and add the 2 years? It would keep our best veteran DT on the team and save quite a bit of money.

3-years, 30 million (Richardson makes more than he would otherwise either way and gets to stay in one place)

2021 Cap: 9.5 Million (more than he'd likely get in this upcoming FA period and 4+ million less than his current cap hit for 2021) Win, win.
2022 Cap: 9.5 million (still more than he would likely pull in his year 32 as a rent-a-hulk and the 4.17 million saved in 2021 rolls over for Cleveland so this is closer to a 5 million dollar deal for the front office when it's all balanced).
2023 Cap 11 Million: Richardson's year 33. Even if he gets released, it is also the year the cap is expected to expand with thee new TV deals to some 248 million. Meaning he would be in a better spot to try to make money on his end and the Browns would be able to laugh off any 2-ish million in dead money. Bonus, if he is still playing solid, 11 or so million would actually be a cheap deal under the new 2023 cap.

Just saying

Further food for thought:

If Brees doesn't retire there is no way the Saints can keep Marshon Lattimore on his 5th year option (even if it is only 10 million).

The Browns come to their "rescue" and offer a 3rd, maybe?

Get him back to Ohio.

would recommend just drafting a replacement first there are some real studs in the draft.

I really hope we address our back 7 the same way we addressed the offensive line. Bring in one or two impact free agents. Let Harrison be the Hubbard type who is a great backup and decent rotational safety. I would like to get another good FA LB, but I feel like our FO and Woods both don't value that position. Prioritize the rest in the draft.

With the type of ball-control offense Stefanski runs, a hard nose defense is so very essential. Right now, we're caught in a weird dynamic because we have a high-powered rushing offense and a defense that gives up boku points. It doesn't seem like the two should co-exist, but hey, we've won five games so far.

That all sounds factual, actual, and sensible to me, Purp. I have not seen the "should be's" out there flying around like I wanted to. Like you, I thought a pass rush from this front would be more forgiving and help the youngsters back there to make up for some of the margins of error that happen with the lack of experience. I do know that Greedy did not overly wow me, and didn't look overly eager to tackle in support.
I guess these CBs are pricey to be part-time roster. Get them healthy, drive them around for awhile. But I think maybe I am kicking some more tires in case this takes too long to make us viable and able to meet our needs. Our corners might help more if bigger.

where did you pick up this " boku " ? And I thought it was buku ..lol

yeah, they are literally both just in the same boat at the same points in their careers.that's all I was saying.

Gosh, I think you're right...I think its my memories of those old juice boxes from grade school.

its neither..lol, its booku

Other than going with a 5-2, I honestly have no idea.

j/c

Watching TJ Carrie have a great game in the Colts D as they are beating the Titans makes me think you can improve without changing players.

I picked up the word in The Nam..lol .. booku dinky dow .. ( spelling )

Derived from:
beaucoup: many (It's French)

dien cai dau: crazy (Vietnamese)

Yeah, he did have a nice game.

"Mercy Beaucoup" Heard it all the time by a basketball player from Aliquippa, PA back in college.

Larry Ogunjobi being used far more as a run-stuffer? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I always thought he was more of a penetrator/rusher (if we have to categorize him)(?).

I would agree with you. He was always a penetrator, and one of my biggest knocks against him has been gap discipline. He often picks a gap and shoots it. Occasionally he is right, but a lot of times, he is disastrously wrong.

Picks,or assigned?
If it is his assigned gap and he shoots it,that would be the definition of gap integrity.

And you sir are right on.. ding , ding ..

Picks. I think he gets overly aggressive and gambles.

Not disagreeing with you here just throwing this out there.

How much is scheme?

I personally would like to see a more attacking style of defense. Why?

I hate getting chewed up slowly, it eats my guts out. Man up outside with tight coverages and attack and pray you get there before they can get anything off. To me this beats the hell out of slow death.

Not saying I am right here, but we I think are playing the defense we want to without the ability to execute the plan. Even so if you believe in just 4 guys applying pressure you have to cover long enough for them to get there? Some of it is how offenses play today picks are legal now when in the past they were called. In man coverage situation a pick can be devastating.

Also a well executed offensive play is nearly impossible to stop. The best I think is to hit the QB enough that he starts seeing ghosts (pressure that may not be there). That's when any defense is at it's best. This defense is horrible, no nice way to say it.

I also understand the value of NOT tipping off a style of play until it matters more than say a regular season game does. Football is about strategy and counter moves and adjustments, we all get that. Sometimes you keep things under wraps for critical moments?

I have seen on a very few occasions this defense go to a more attacking style with mixed results.

FWIW......we blitzed on the majority of snaps in the second Bengal game and Burrow exploited that and tore us up. Early on, we did not blitz much, but then we went crazy w/it.

Bone I agree we may not have that player just yet but again maybe we have that player in the making. I believe Jacob Phillips can be that type of player with maturity and more experience. That description you mentioned sounded a lot like his draft report. It's too bad he has been injured but when he's played he looked good.

I agree we have to do something different on D. Our coaches may feel we don't have the personnel to be an attacking d I don't know but we can't continue doing what we have been it's not working. The Raiders game was a slow death. We couldn't get off the field and because of it our O only had the ball 6 times. We held them to 16 points. It's a game we could have easily won.

I guess we agree down the line. This game can demonstrate what got fixed or at least improved over bye week. Do some things differently on D! We have not been effective, and couldn't get off the field as they pushed the ball down the field last game. If you are not winning individual wars, change up, fail in new ways. I do not see improvement overall. More should be questioned if a different answer or solution is required. Part of the fix has been left on the sidelines. Frustrating to watch bad ball, and I am taking into account the players who are not dominating, but They should be getting better at something. Not yet. If nothing else, use the games for practice on some new directions. We need a win Sunday.