DawgTalkers.net Forums The Archives 2020 NFL Season Gameday vs Kansas City Post game thoughts

Very proud of the season.

I thought Baker had a really good game yesterday. KC blitzed and he read it most times. Some of his completions to keep that 18 play drive were clutch and some of his throws - DPJ along the sideline, Hooper - man, that window was like 6 inches, Higgins - were elite. The pick was a bad decision but also a great play by Mathieu who saw Landry sit.

When we embarked on that drive to bring it within 5, we were just running at them - punching them in the mouth. I am still concerned we do not run enough but I also understand that plays set up plays within games. I trust KS with his chess.

D made that pick on that awful decision by Henne to just heave it and I thought "This is it". Sadly not.

Easy enough to bag on the D - we looked out of our league with the motion plays most of the 1st half then sort of adjusted but you cant have 18 of 20 playes going for 1st down. Mahomes going out - and I hope he's OK - kept us in it truth be told. Still, we lost Wills and Lamm - man Hance was awesome again. If he, Lamm, Harris and Hubbard are our depth we are in a great spot.

Garrett came back, got a sack, which was huge but we failed to capitalise.

Loads of sub plots within sub plots. Chubb dropping passes, as did Landry - it's been something that has reared its head in some games. I do wonder why. Focus? Or just that its one of those things - they had a few drops too.

This offseason is huge for us so we see that we address the gaps, upgrade the weaker areas and solidify status as a postseason team.

Back to my opening point. I switched off the game deflated but with a little satisfaction. This WAS different. The team, coaches and staff deserve huge credit. We will see if the mantra is true:

Are we done? No! Do we have more? Yes, sir.

I really hope so.

The lack of speed on defense (and offense really) is an issue. We have zero playmakers outside of Garrett on defense ... and even he wasn’t himself the last few weeks

Indeed.

I am eager to see what we do in free agency towards building the D.

It's not quite the same with the draft. Once the draft comes to you, you are left with the players available, which might not always allow the drafting of a need position.

One exception is if you elect to trade up, which might be a possibility this year. With two picks in each of the 3rd and 4th rounds, we might be willing to trade up to be sure to get a "need" position in the draft.

it would be nice to snag a Joe Haden and Minka F like Pittsburgh did.

Regarding Woods and whether he should be back with the team....

We just held the Chiefs to 22 (yes, I know we had one half without Mahommes, but we started holding them to field goals before he left the game) and then there was last week with the 80 takeaways. His defense hasn't looked good at all, but it's looked about as good as what he was given. His secondary was ravaged all year, and the team's biggest strength (Garrett and the Dline) took a HUGE hit when Garrett was out and then limited with COVID. I think Woods deserves another year with at least a respectable roster to see what he can do. I think he's earned another year with his D's overall performance in the playoffs (wasn't pretty, but it did what it needed to do).


Regarding the spearing non-call.... I just kinda chalk it up to us seeing some really really bad calls, and that one just wasn't anywhere near the worst. I don't really fault the refs since there was a ton going on in that play, and even the TV guys had to run it back a time or two before they picked up on the helmet usage. That non-call aside, I think the refs called a decent game.

Us not being able to do much in the first half and allowing KC to ice the game at the end without coming up with a big play were really what cost us the game.

Regarding offensive playcalling.... I acknowledge that I'm playing checkers here (as I drop my fingers on the keyboard) while Stefanski is playing chess, but I just wish we would feature the run a bit more, especially early in the game. Our games just feel like KS wants to throw constantly. Chubb and/or Hunt usually end up getting their yardage and at least a few scores... but it just seems like WE neutralize our biggest strength (our RBs) and not the D. I feel like Hunt was primed and ready to run wild yesterday and we didn't really give him much of an opportunity to do so (Chubb had 13 carries, Hunt only had 6 and they barely cracked 100 yards combined despite both have yards/carry over 5). I know that it's dumb to run right at a wall of 8 defenders, but I think we have more opportunities to get the ball in the hands of our best weapons.

That depends on what the league wants to do with situations like this. Personally, I don't like the rule, but it's a pretty easy rule to avoid. DON'T stretch the ball towards the pilon on dives unless it's 4th down. It's a team rule in New England and Tennessee, and it should have been in Cleveland too.

I don't mind the team retaining possession at the 20, because I think it would encourage more exciting plays, but you are talking about a player that just fumbled the ball and he should know the rule. I could go either way.

As for the head-to-head targeting, I'm not mad about it because NOBODY saw that in real-time. I wouldn't have expected the ref to catch that. Maybe on a play like that in the middle of the field, but there was so much going on this play, that would have been #37 on his list to check off. It sucks, but thems the breaks.

I do think it should be challengeable though. We all saw the hit on replay and it would be logical to get it right. Heck, I think almost anything should be challengeable. I know, I know, stating everything should be open to challenge would make a lot of people roll their eyes. You worry about 45 challenges per game. I wouldn't let that happen. Here's my proposal to combat abuse of the replay system:

1. One replay per quarter (or half). You don't get a replacement if you win the challenge.
2. If your challenge fails, you give up a timeout AND get a 15-yard penalty. Don't waste our time.
3. The ref gets 30-45-60 seconds under the hood. If they can't figure it out in that time, call on the field stands, move on.
4. Let the replay officials start a replay on scoring, turnovers and the final X minutes of the game when needed, but they would only be checking for basic things, not looking for holds.

I think that would handle most situations. If you think there was a missed holding, face mask or helmet-to-helmet hit, challenge it, but you better be sure.

In his post game presser Stefanski praised Higgins effort to score but also said that they coached players NOT to try reaching across the goal line with the ball.

Oh, I didn't hear that. Thanks for the info. So yeah, then Higgins should have known. I know a player has the instinct to score the TD, but with that rule, they need to be more aware.

I think that might be the case to change the rule. In a split second, you're trying to catch, dive, extend, know where the defensive player is and know the situation with the down, clock and score....it's a bit much to also time to to say to yourself, "just retain possession and we'll get them with 1st and goal".

I think it's a good debate. Keep the existing rule and drill home how to handle that situation or change it to be "retain possession but at the 20". I could go either way.

I agree that stretch and fumble was big along with the non call on the helmet to helmet but allowing Henne to scramble like that on 3rd and 14 is inexcusable. If we could have stopped him and got the ball back, well who knows.

Right, I'm more upset at that scramble than the helmet-to-helmet. Force him to throw it away or win the game, don't let him scramble for it.

The 4th and 1 play, well, we just got outcoached. I don't really blame anyone because that's a gutsy call on Andy's part. It's like the fake spike and throw for a TD. 99 out of 100 times, you're ready for the spike, or in this situation to not jump offsides, but nobody ever runs the play. We got burned, oh well.

The 3rd and 14 was the play we should have been ready for, and we weren't. That down and distance should have been an easy stop, but the moment was bigger than our talent. It's a learning experience. Move on.

I think the fumble rule needs to be changed - its way too punitive. The catch made a 1st down. When he fumbled out of the end zone, the rule should be 1st & 10 from the 20 for the team that fumbled.

As far as the helmet-to-helmet non-call, I don't like the rule to begin with. When a defensive player launches horizontally to make a play or a tackle, he necessarily leads with his helmet. Its at the top of his body; he can't not lead with his helmet. Helmet to helmet collisions are a part of the game - we saw it earlier when Hunt got way down low and rammed a tacker head-on to get an extra yard or two. It happens. So I draw a distinction between "spearing" (or targeting) and a tackler making helmet contact because it couldn't be avoided. If they're worried about safety, make a better helmet and make it mandatory that players use it.

I think they got away from the run early on because they decided to short pass to Chubb. Well he had some dropsies and that didnt work out.

I agree Peen. I have seen a number of people, including myself, speculating that we need about 3 solid additions to the defense... I would love it if one of them was a FA who could step in and produce immediately. Some rookies can but there is more of a risk there.

My take on the D is we need about 4 or 5 additions. 2 LB's, a safety and another CB. I would say we need another DL but Billings should be here next year. How about another pass rushing DL too? Is there a chance we could bring back Vernon if he is cleared to play to a team friendly contract? Just some thoughts.

yeah, it’s as a bad day for Nick to have his worst game ... he missed a few cutback lanes as well that he’s usually golden with ... but, that’s football

I feel for Hunt a little bit. Only handing him the ball 6 times was a bummer. He was juiced for this game.

And some of our current young players are getting better.

yeah we just seemed to never get our footing on offense. A lot may have to do with their scheme and what they were taking away. it seemed like we were playing left handed all game ... couldn’t bootleg, couldn’t get much going in PA, etc

Would I have liked to have seen our season end in a SB victory? Of course I would have. And we were given the opportunity to move one step closer when Mahomes went down. So to say there isn't a bit of disappointment in the fact we couldn't take advantage of the situation would not be genuine.

But I try to keep things in perspective. Sometimes with the emotions involved in sports, and especially with my life long love of the Browns that can be hard to do. Not only for myself, but obviously from reading this thread, many others like me.

But the fact of the matter is this team has come a very long way in a very short period of time. I think that expecting a team to go from a 6-10 record last season to winning the SB this season would be an unrealistic expectation.

I could break this down to the no call in the helmet to helmet hit. I could break it down to how certain players performed or didn't perform as the case may be. I could complain about Chubb dropping those passes. Yes I could. But I'm not going to. I think you get the point.

Instead I'm going to enjoy knowing that this was season one with Stefanski at the helm. I'm going to look at how far we've come in a single season. I'm going to celebrate the maturity, development and progress Baker has made. I'm going to understand that you can't rebuild a team to fit your scheme in a single off season. I know that much progress has been made and more issues will be addressed during this off season.

I've sat back and watched too many frustrating and losing seasons to let this moment pass me by without enjoyment and a smile on my face seeing the accomplishments this team has made. As a life long Browns fan I think I've earned that much. I have a reason to look forward and not look back.

And that's damned sure what I'm going to do.

I've been on one version of Dawg Talk/Dawgtalkers since 1999. For those who have been along for the ride everyone pretty much knows I'm not rah rah guy just to go with the flow. I'm not a guy who tries to put lipstick on a pig. When it comes to our Browns, if we're stinking up the field I'll say so. And sadly I've had to say so for far too long.

But not today. Not for most of this season. And not during this off season. I have every reason to be happy, to be optimistic and to look forward to the future of our team. So you'll see no negativity from me today.

As my wife would say.... "Not today Satan! Not today!"



GO BROWNS!

I was screaming at my son please Higgy just go down at the 2-and run it in on the next couple of plays because we were leaving too much time on the clock. And then he fumbled-

The third and 14 should have never even been close to that big of a play. That whole side of the field was open on a couple of big plays. I don't know if Goodson got caught up inside or just couldn't get over. We need speed of defense.

I bet Reid doesn't go for that 4th down if it is 7 or 8 to go.

If you would have told me especially with the back end of our defense in August that we would be down by a score to Kansas City in our last offensive drive with a chance to score and go on to the AFC Championship game and be the only one left standing in the AFC North, I would have told you to get your head examined.

Have not read the other posts in this thread yet, so I imagine a lot of what I say has been said.

- I said last week that even if KC beats us by 100 I will take this season as a win. And I do. Beating PIT in PIT in a playoff game was the pinnacle of a great year.

- That said, this game was within our grasp. We played the top seed in the AFC and took it to the end.

- We've had The Drive and The Fumble. Will this game be known as The Scramble or The Touchback?

- The touchback rule is what it is. It's up to Higgins to secure the ball. Or the refs to call the Use of the Helmet rule, which I think that was. There are coaches who do not allow the reach over the goal line. It is dangerous.

- Even though we only gave up 22 points to KC, I am very disappointed in the defense. Not sure that makes sense, but that's where I am at. I know we have a lack of talent on the D, especially at LB and S, but I think we had a scheme problem too. KC had a couple of plays they used over and over and we never adjusted for those. Those plays were there all day for KC.

- There is absolutely no excuse for that Henne scramble. None. Whatsoever.

- Not an optimal time for the run game to struggle. The OL overall did not have an adequate game. Baker had more pressure than usual.

- Too many negative runs. The pitchouts to Chubb lost a few yards each time we tried it. Too often we were behind the chains.

- KC was bringing pressure from guys lined up wide, who came in untouched. We didn't adjust to stop that.

- Landry had a key drop, almost into a pick. Chubb had a couple drops as well. Hooper, Njoku and DPJ with some nice grabs. Higgins had a tough catch as well.

- While Baker's numbers may not have been stellar, I think he played well. Had that pick, but I think he made good decisions for the most part.

- Proud of this team. We fixed the OL last off-season. Looking forward to what this off-season brings. Use free agency to work on the defense, and best available in the draft.

I know we lost Wills, but did we also lose Lamm?

Cap do you know why your upset with the D even though they only gave up 22 points? Because the D can't make the big play when they have to and get us off the field. They give up way to many big and important plays.

I guess we could call it "The Yes! Yes! No! NO!! Play". Ehh, might be too long ...

Seriously though, I'm tired of naming bad things that happen to our teams. It gives them a emotional power they don't deserve IMO.

Yes, that is it. Thanks for pinpointing it.

exactly ... our defense is one of the worst 4th down defenses in the history of the NFL. We were fortunate against Pittsburgh to stop them once and it changed the game

Our defense certainly isn't great for sure and our 4th down D is bad. But it is not accurate to say the defense only stopped the Pittsburgh offense once. WE had three interceptions, two of which were converted to 14 points IIRC.

Yes we lost Lamm too. Had to use the Hance guy at LT for most of the 2nd half.

Looking back, the Browns had so many chances to win that game, and Kansas City did just enough, and also seemed to get all the breaks. The fumble/touchback. Tyreek Hill somehow holding onto that catch that the browns ended up challenging, and rightfully not getting. And They did it all with Mahomes out enough time to where there was probably serious doubt of them losing the game.

It's hard to fault Higgins for that fumble. I know Stefanski said after the game that are coaching guys to not reach out like that, but I think it's just human that he tries to make that play. I have a bigger problem with the rule, and I think we may end up seeing it changed in the future. I don't think teams should be penalized like that. Maybe it can be an automatic fumble out of bounds, and the offensive team gets the ball at the 5. Any fumble forward into the endzone that remains live is up for grabs. I wonder if you polled all nfl players and coaches if they like this rule or would want it changed. I feel like majority would want change?

Defensively the Browns hung in there, but they just don't have a defense that can overpower like in situations we saw near the end of the game with Henne just finding every weakness in the defense. You need better linebackers. You need an upgrade at safety and hopefully Grant Delpit comes in healthy and ready to go.

I thought Baker played ok, i know he wants that pick back. I think he will really benefit going into next year with the same coaching staff, and maybe an addition or two.

It was pretty clear to just about everyone that Myles Garrett was not the same since he had covid. I really hope he is able to to return to form. I have a friend going through long term effects of covid, and it absolutely sucks.

Kansas City is just a damnn good team, and well coached, and the end of the game with Chad Henne was handled masterfully.

Probably won't hit us until next week when there is no Browns game. I am still excited for this final four though. This has potential to be an amazing sunday of games.

I don't really set expectations for the Browns. They have been so bad for so long, that I could not stand saying it was a 4 win team. I tend to create expectations as things go. Probably about a quarter of the way to half-way I really wanted to see them get to the playoffs. They exceeded that this year, and did it under some ridiculous circumstances. Having a brand new coaching staff during a pandemic and having to do everything via zoom. The injury to Delpit to start the year. Losing guys to COVID. Having to play a playoff game with no coach and a depleted secondary. As mentioned before your best defensive player being restricted because of the effects of the virus. Browns fans should definitely be walking proud. The future looks really bright. I am still excited for the draft. We may not be picking high, but picking high these days you are looking for QB's, tackles, high end skill positions. The Browns need linebackers, and depth in the secondary. They should really be able to net that need in both rounds 1 and 2, even when they are picking in the 20's.

And man, I know there are rumblings that we could be back to packed stadiums by September (one step at at a time), I can not imagine what opening day (or night) might look like at FES with this team coming off this run.

One thing we can say that has changed culturally that needs stated for the off-season: Great players now want to be here. The posts about who rejected us, doesn't want to come here, won't be drafted here, etc. should be a thing of the past. We have potential and should welcome some more talent, say at LB and S. What we need still, we need badly. But our very best shine brightly on the field against everyone.

The NFL is not sports, its entertainment. Luckily I think we're getting enough star power they might let us start winning in a year or two instead of having to win every game twice.

Overall our guys played well. Our stars, Baker, Chubb and Landry all had crucial mistakes that cost us points and maybe the game.

I used to be so attached to the results of the game, now I know there's nothing we can do, the billionaires will do whatever they wish with the weird challenge rules and stuff, but hopefully soon they'll toss us a victory, and until then just gonna not care or spend any $ the NFL.

Yep, the front office will have to be very selective about how they handle FA. The Brownw could become bigger players in that market, and that's not always a good thing.

I will say out of the talk about changing the rule. Had it gone the other way, it would be a great rule.

I agree punch, the ball carrier doesn't have time to think about all of those things in the split second we are talking about.

It is what it is.

This here. I watched the game with a friend who'd had it. He remarked that people don't understand the after effects, the joint pain, and how quickly fatigued. And, of course, nobody knows the long term effects. I'm a little worried about Garrett long term.

Yes, a guy named Blake played most of the second half I believe.

I agree that the guy going for the end zone isn't thinking through the scenario of "what if I fumble into the end zone".. he's just trying to score and you can't fault him for that.

I disagree about the rule. I've always thought it was a stupid rule but it doesn't get talked about much because it happens what.. 3 or 4 times throughout an entire NFL season?

If you hit a guy on an out route at the 5 and he takes 2 steps and fumbles out of bounds at the 3, you get the ball at the 3.. if you hit him at the 2 and he takes 2 steps and fumbles out of bounds beyond the pylon, the other team gets the ball? Seems rather arbitrary and excessively punitive to me. We already have rules to cover fumbles in the final 2 minutes, which could be "intentional" so you can't advance the ball.. and intentionally fumbling into the end zone is the only thing this rule could be designed to prevent. There are multiple ways to handle this that would be better than a touchback.