DawgTalkers.net Forums The Archives 2020 NFL Season NFL 2020 Post Season Now that the Browns are out...

Looks like it is Bucs for me.

I usually root for the AFC, but the Bucs are an exception. As I explained earlier, I guess I have been a closet Bucs fan since 1976 when they entered the league. I would guess I have been to at least 30 games over the years.

Not to be redundant but again, I agree with your take on the subject. When Mahommes went down we had an opportunity and didn't capitalize. I really thought after the INT. we would drive down and score. Maybe next time.

Didn’t see this yesterday but I was rooting for TB to lose (qb and team). But packers losing doesn’t bother me. I’ll be rooting for KC next week.

Allen has totally surprised me with his development and ACCURACY.

I think if he was the Browns QB - we'd all be stoked for the future and I don't think we'd be dissing him and suggesting he is fools gold. Out of Lamar, Baker and Allen - Allen is the one who has consistently improved while Baker and Lamar both have had ups and downs.

Don't get me wrong - I was and am 100% all in with Baker. Would not trade him for either of these others ... I just don't think it's fair to brand Allen a fake. I think he will duplicate the season he had this year ... and I think KC did brilliantly to nullify him in that game.

I've been impressed with Allen too. He's turning out to be quite the QB.

NAILED IT!

Around here it's not about the player, it's about the uniform.

Sometimes - but not all the time and not even most of the time. But I think we all get caught up in preconceived opinions sometimes.

I wanted no part of Allen - I wouldn't have drafted him at the top of round 2. I was 100% wrong. I did not think it was probable that a QB that had poor accuracy at college (Wyoming no less) would increase his accuracy at the NFL level. He has. More power to him.

Generally I am very much on board with Tab and his optimism about the team - just not this time on Allen.

It really isn't about tab. Although I'm sure he will want to paint it that way.

What it's about are everything from draft picks to second tier players. And it isn't everyone who does it, but it is a lot of people.

Let's just take Mack Wilson for example. He was the 155th pick in the draft.Everyone knows the odds of someone selected that low in the draft have pretty poor odds of being successful in the NFL. Not that they can't or won't, but the odds are very much against it.

Yet when he is drafted for the Browns the expectations far outweigh the odds. Going into this season the expectations were unreal.

That's my only real point here. Had Mack Wilson have been drafted by any other team people would have been far more likely to have set their expectations of him as an NFL player much closer in line with what his odds of success actually were.

And there's certainly nothing wrong with that. We all want our draft picks to succeed. But I do think it's quite accurate to say that wearing a Browns uniform has a direct impact on how most Browns fans look at a player. Much as you described how many people would see Alan differently if he were wearing a Browns uniform.

Oddly enough. I was kind of leaning the opposite direction. I didn't expect Wilson or Takitaki to work out. I kind of like Takitaki now.

But I think most of the hope/ expectation for Wilson was around the dark hole of our linebacker group.

Comparatively, I'm hopeful for Phillips next year, but still anticipate he will be better suited in rotation (meaning, we still really need to get a starting LBer)

He's already damaged goods and now that he's gotten hurt it will affect him psychologically. He will be more hesitant to run as he gets older which will undermine his game.

I think we have some decent situational and rotational LBers. We are missing the ONE that can be a legit force. If we had that ONE that could be a force and demand extra attention, I think our other LBs would end up looking much more serviceable in their roles.

I'm not sure any draft demonstrates so much how a young QBs success or lack thereof depends on their environment. You cannot convince me that any other team in the league would have had the foresight to turn Lamar into a RB. Allen was drafted into a stable organization and coaching staff, and Daboll has done an amazing job of getting the most out him. Baker has had an up and down few years just like the instability of his organization. And Darnold got drafted to the most dysfunctional franchise in the sport. He's been awful.

While I think Allen's ceiling is the highest, I take Baker over all of them. As much as I've been critical of him game to game, I think his overall game and makeup project the best for long term success. And I am a big Allen fan as well. He would be a close second for me. Allen and Baker have very similar intangibles to me. And their teammates seem to gravitate toward them.

I'll also add that I saw some Super Bowl odds recently for next year. Browns tenth best at +2500. I like the value there. I think this team is absolutely hungry and will be better than ever next year. Take that bet.

IIRC when Josh Allen was coming out there was a story that he had a shoulder operation and the DR's used screws to hold it together. That dropped his value somewhat too.

Collarbone. I remember most people saying it was a non-factor.

j/c

Josh Allen definitely improved over last year and he seems to be a good guy that teammates seem to love. He's an easy guy to like...not overly-brash or over-confident...just seems to be a good guy.

Now about that accuracy thing. I believe the ability to improve accuracy - at an NFL level - is a lot like working to be a faster runner. A non-fast person can get fastER...but they will never be a fast runner. I think the same applies to a QB's accuracy. An inaccurate guy can get more accurate...but I don't think he will ever be considered an accurate QB. I believe there is an innate "thing" that comes with accuracy...NFL level accuracy. To a certain extent, you either have it or you don't.

That's a fantastic explanation - I agree. Of course, once in a while there will be an exception, as there always is.

JA may not be an exception to that rule, but he is an exception to the rule that called him undraftable as a high 1st rounder because of his accuracy.

I argued for the Browns to draft him because of everything else he brought to the table. In my estimation, even if his accuracy never improved, you're trading a rocket arm, size and durability, nearly elite speed (for a QB), and a QB that can throw from any angle to any part of the field... for 2.5 bad passes a game. Combine that with a kid that is "country boy" strong, humble, no baggage, and just wanted the opportunity to work and get better?

I love Baker, but Allen was always the no-brainer in that draft.

j/c

I'm slightly confused by some of the comments here about Josh Allen. Let's take a look, shall we?

Baker Mayfield 2020 stats.

62.8% completions. 3563 yards. 7.3 yard average. 26 td's and 8 int's.

Josh Allen 2020 stats.

69.2% completions. 4544 yards. 7.9 yard average. 37 td's and 10 int's.

Now I'm not saying I would trade Josh Allen for Baker Mayfield. But what I am saying is that if Josh Allen wore a Browns jersey fans would be singing his raises as much or more than they are Bakers.

I've seen comments about his accuracy, yet his completion percentage is higher than Bakers. In every category his performance over the 2020 season has been as good or slightly better in every category. Yes the circumstances they came into are different. But their current production indicates they are pretty close to even in their performance.

Josh has shown incredible improvement, I've been a bit of a closet Bills fan for years, and I'm a JA fan... I watch his games and highlights. I guess one thing I can say is his "inaccuracy" comments point to a fact that he has two or three passes per game (usually) that have you saying "where the heck was he throwing that ball??". Baker has about one every two weeks...

That's the trade-off with Josh so far. Completion % doesn't really reflect that though.

I thought he was the perfect QB for the AFC North, the new "Big Ben" as Ben fades out of the picture. I think one of the most impressive things is his 3rd (or 4th) and short conversion, there is very little chance of stopping him from converting with his feet in a one or two yard situation, it's basically automatic.

I agree.


I do think you meant you wouldn't trade Baker for Josh. As typed, it sounds like you are a Bills fan.

Josh Allen is a good QB. If it worked out we had him and not Baker, few would be complaining.

I agree...if JA were here we'd be very supportive of him and thrilled with his progress.

When I think of accurate QBs, I struggle to think of a QB in the entire league who makes more and/or better throws in tight windows than does Baker. (Rodgers can be ridiculously accurate...and with an awful throwing base.) BM had/has some "touch" issues on short passes that he needs to work on...but that's not an accuracy thing. He makes a handful of throws nearly every game where you just...sort of...jaw-drop on where he puts the ball. His performance/throws on 3rd and long this year was incredible.

When I think about accurate QBs I don't bother looking at completion % as there is a lot that goes into that stat. Drops being the main thing...throwaways being next...playing three straight in driving rain and wind...receiver separation ability (where we are woefully ...well...woeful). To me. accuracy is a thing you see and in context, not read.

Not me. For me Baker was and always will be the prize. I think too many fans take one season as an absolute. Consider rookie RG3.

Don't get me wrong, Allen is the most improved and has been quite impressive. He and Lamar benefitted from their situation. In my mind there's no doubt if Baker had gone to either of those teams he'd be looking like the cream of the crop as well.

Now if Allen was here and looking like the Allen of Buffalo I'd be ecstatic and excited for the future. But by no means am I thinking we'd be better off with Allen now.

Allen finally got his deep threat and look at him go. It completely opens the field and makes hard throws look like cake. Same with Mahomes. They're players are always open. And I think Mahomes was touted as having accuracy issues coming out. Stretch the field, get Baker his deep threat and watch how much fun we will have. Baker was always fitting balls into tight spaces. Imagine if he doesn't have to do that.

Here comes the can of worms. I know everyone loves Jarvis, but he's not a deep threat. And OBJ's injuries may be a concern... but as much as we need speed on defense, we need speed on offense as well. Get Baker his Diggs and he will look every bit as good (if not better) as Allen.

I agree...and to your point about a deep-threat...I don't really see OBJ as being that guy either. Yes...he's fast as can be...but I see him as more of a YAC guy (and I could be completely wrong about that.)

Jarvis and Higgins are excellent route-runners with hands that are very, very good. OBJ is the all-world talent guy but I wouldn't call him as "dependable" as the other two.

In any event, they all thrive in the same part(s) of the field...where the deer, antelope and TEs also roam. You can see - and read - the need for a guy to "take off the top"...and I don't think that guy is on the team.

I want a 6'2"+ guy who is fast and can track a ball...Perriman was excellent in that role in '18...a poor-mans Diggs?

Have we seen OBJ at 100% health yet? Was he when we were learning the offense early on this season (before he got hurt)? I'm not looking for a yes/no answer, as I think that brings up a couple obvious topics (OBJ just scratching the surface in this offense and/or him picking up the injury-prone label (not the same as a guy like Ward that misses lots of games, but still can be as frustrating when you're never getting 100% of someone that should be such a difference-maker).

I think Hodge has shown enough to warrant more looks as the deep threat in our offense. Obviously he's nowhere near the complete package as OBJ, but Hodge has the speed and has flashed some nice hands at times. I think that's something you can build on.

I do like Hodge.

same here. He’s a valuable blocker and made some good plays in the passing game

No one has ever considered Jarvis a deep threat. Nor is that how he is used. Nor is that where his value is.

I am in favor of signing Breshad Perriman this offseason.

Just a thought. What about Marvin Hall as a deep threat? When we got him all we heard is how fast he is. Is he good enough to consider as a rotational WR?

i was hoping we’d see more of him against the Jets with the circumstances ... but who knows. I do know Colts fans were mixed on his release

This is all true. If you look at Josh Allen's stats from last year they are similar (probably a little worse) than Baker's numbers this year... Josh Allen has benefited from being with the same coach for 3 years.. Since Baker should finally get to enjoy a 2nd season in the same system, and based on his progress just from the first half of this season to the second.. I don't think it's unrealistic to expect Baker's numbers to take a nice step forward next year.

I think Baker will be an early MVP candidate next year.