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I was talking about on the field as well. Higgins is certainly a "good" WR. Not great, but as a third or fourth WR. With the increased role of DPJ I think one can make the argument whether the coaching staff sees DPJ or Higgins as the #3 WR moving forward.
What this situation reminds me of is the Duke Johnson situation. Fans claimed he was quite capable of being our feature back. That wherever he went he would turn out to be a feature RB and we shouldn't trade him. Then there were those of us who felt like we fleeced Houston by getting a third round pick for him from them.
It's just that sometimes when a player puts on that Browns uniform it warps the reflection. That uniform skews peoples perspective of a player. Reality dictates that the NFL is just another business. I'm sure if this FO can sign Higgins as cheap or cheaper than another WR with what they see as the same talent level they most likely will. If not look for them to turn in another direction.
Now don't get me wrong. We have players on our team I would hate to see leave. Nick Chubb is one such example. To me he not only exemplifies what you want in a dedicated team player, he also exemplifies the type of character you want on your team. So there are certainly examples of where I'm just as guilty of this as anyone else. When you're a huge fan of a team it's hard not to.
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What this situation reminds me of is the Duke Johnson situation. Fans claimed he was quite capable of being our feature back. That wherever he went he would turn out to be a feature RB and we shouldn't trade him. I don't recall anyone saying this. My recollection was that people (accurately) saw him as a key piece of the offense but as a complementary back and receiving option. He was also a guy that could flex out as a WR, further stressing the offense. I don't remember anyone calling for him to be an every-down back.
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I seem to recall a push by many to make Duke the #1 guy.
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If OBJ gets healthy, I think our WR Room is fine.
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I seem to recall a push by many to make Duke the #1 guy. I recall a push for him to see the field more/have more snaps, and not necessarily in the backfield. Not be the #1. Kinda like we used Hunt this year.
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In his press conference today, Stefanski mentioned something along the lines of speed being the number 1 thing you look at when it comes to WRs. I'm not sure how that bodes for Higgins. Presser link
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In his press conference today, Stefanski mentioned something along the lines of speed being the number 1 thing you look at when it comes to WRs. I'm not sure how that bodes for Higgins. Presser link Seems like a generic comment to me. I suppose in the pecking order, speed would be #1. Or in some ways, last. All other things being equal, the fastest guy wins the job. As to Higgy, he is fast enough for the position. Everybody playing the position doesn't run a 4.35. Actually, few do. We talk about players being "just a guy". Higgy is probably a little better than that, but not by a lot. As I said in another post, we could probably cut Higgy and go with DPJ and not miss anything. My thinking is there comes a point that as a team gets better, players like Higgy become expendable. Not because they are good or don't have value, rather because you can replace them fairly easily and open up a roster spot for a new, young emerging talent who shows potential to grow past what Higgy brings. You bring in the new guy, if he doesn't improve over a few seasons, you cut him and go with the next guy.
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You bring in the new guy, if he doesn't improve over a few seasons, you cut him and go with the next guy.
And your QB (going into his 4th year) is then going into his 7th year and is nearing 30. Thinking that DPJ - or some other rookie - is likely to replace Higgins' production would be foolhardy.
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And your QB (going into his 4th year) is then going into his 7th year and is nearing 30.
Thinking that DPJ - or some other rookie - is likely to replace Higgins' production would be foolhardy.
DPJ already had more than half of Higgins production (as a receiver) on less than half of the targets as a rookie in a messed up training environment. Thinking DPJ could probably replace Higgins production seems pretty straightforward to me. Plus, DPJ plays special teams. You'd like the sample size to be bigger, but that's why I'd try to bring Higgins back on a mostly non-guaranteed contract and see if it plays out that way this offseason. If DPJ progresses and beats him out (as possibly expected), you cut Higgins. Harsh, but that's life/business in the NFL. I like Higgins, but I'm not sure how much guaranteed money teams will be offering. Let him go see with the knowledge we'd love to have him back, but we have to be smart with roster construction with Landry's and OBJ's contracts already on the books in the WR room.
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we need size and speed at WR. We have a squad of possession guys, we don't have the huge catch radius guy or the field stretcher (depending on OBJ health) I can see them trying to upgrade a spot with one of those and DPJ is younger and was drafted by this org. Higgins is expendable, but seems like he wants to be here and the Baker chemistry is big. Can't put a value on a QB trusting a WR. I can see Higgins back on a very team friendly deal
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I get that guys like Higgins can theoretically be had easily and that we're always looking to upgrade everywhere... but what else does a guy have to do? He's done nothing but produce when his number is called. He should've/could've been a playoff hero if refs call a blatant H2H in the KC game. Standing next to the other guys we have in our WR room probably does him no favors, but the guy produces and all indications are that it's really not going to take much to keep him a little longer. Show the guy a little contractual love and everyone can move on with their day. Keep plenty of flexibility in there so we can cut bait as we so often seem to want to do with the poor guy.
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Life in the NFL is how I explain it.
Top players in the NFL are going to find their money. Players like Higgy, middle of the road guys actually get hurt by the pay scale as they stack up years.
There comes a time when teams are looking to trim payroll to sign the top free agents or their own top players, and the guys to be cut are the middle of the road veterans in their 4th/5th year and up.
At some point the dollars paid aren't worth the slight increase in production.
I don't mind keeping Higgy, but I don't if it interferes with signing a top free agent defender or possibly Baker or Nick or Teller.
Look at it this way, OBJ is headed back to replace someone. No matter what Willie thinks, DPJ can be Higgy's replacement.
After a players rookie contract, they need to be firmly established as a starter who is at least above average. They will still find work but the odds are good they are going to bounce around the league as they finish out their career.
As another example to try to illustrate my point- if Higgy didn't play for us and Berry signed him next week, the board reaction would be somewhere between WHO and Whooptie-do...camp fodder.
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we need size and speed at WR. size (6'3+) has proven to be the least important thing. the best receivers are around 5'10"-6'1" Diggs 6' Hopkins 6'1 (ish) Adams 6'1 Allen Robinson 6'3 Tyler Lockett 5'10 Keenan Allen 6'2 vJuJu Smith-Schuster 6'1 Justin Jefferson 6'1 Calvin Ridley 6'1 Tyreek Hill 5'10 D.J. Moore 5'10 Brandin Cooks 5'10 Cooper 6'1 OBJ 5'11 Landry 5'11
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Size is primarily important in the red zone, sure, but DB's aren't allowed to touch receivers anymore so speed goes to the top of physical characteristics.
Non-physical characteristics would be hands and route running (both of which will trump speed), but even if you include the non-physicals, speed is still 3rd.
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No matter what Willie thinks, DPJ can be Higgy's replacement.
Of course he CAN be...but why risk that when your window is wide open to get in the playoffs? Your #3 WR doesn't HAVE to play STs. I'm a fan of DPJ...but he just might need more than ONE COVID year to truly bring what Higgins has brought for several years now. Michael Dunn CAN replace Bitonio...but why risk it at this time? I'm not going to cancel my season tix if they don't sign Higgins...but I still think that would be foolhardy.
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So after actually watching DPJ this season you compare him to Dunn on the OL?
DPJ did very well with the targets he got. He averaged more yards per catch than any other Browns WR. Comparisons are fine if they are kept in context. This one was not. Let's start out with the fact is Higgins isn't the Bitonio of WR's.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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As usual, you are arguing with yourself.
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I'm not the one who threw out some crazy comparison to replacing Dunn for Bitonio.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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So after actually watching DPJ this season you compare him to Dunn on the OL?
DPJ did very well with the targets he got. He averaged more yards per catch than any other Browns WR. Comparisons are fine if they are kept in context. This one was not. Let's start out with the fact is Higgins isn't the Bitonio of WR's. DPJ played in 12 games, had a whopping 20 targets of which he hauled in 14. Yes, his yard/catch was high, but I think we can surmise why that is (big, long-striding target that took a while to get into the regular rotation). He had just over 300 yards with 2 TDs. Higgins played in just one more game, and had 52 targets with a 1% better catch%. He was 1 yard shy of 600 for the season and 4 TDs. If we're going to start calling out poor comparisons, then I think we should start with the narrative that DPJ can/will step into Higgins' shoes if he's gone.
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I think you may wish to look at Higgins individual stats before this year.
There was only one season where Higgins stats compared to last season. That was in 2018. In 2017 he had 27 catches for 312 yards with an average of 12.8 YPC and 2 td's.
That sounds very close to what DPJ did this past season. The following year Higgins produced much like he did this year.
I certainly won't compare Higgins 2019 season to this year because Freddie reduced his role to almost nothing.
But the point I'm making here is that if you look at what DPJ did this year and claim we can't expect him to produce to the level or step in to Higgins role, when you look at what Higgins did the year before he elevated his game it almost mirrors DPJ.
Surely you aren't claiming that Higgins is the Bitonio of WR's?
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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You'll get better debate by talking to the goal posts that Pit is constantly moving around.
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So showing that Higgins production the year before he broke out to being an average WR almost mirrors DPJ is moving the goal post?  Actually Oober and I have rather productive debates and discussions on a regular basis. You should try it some time. But rather than debate the topic you seem much more comfortable attacking the poster. To each their own.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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Surely you aren't claiming that Higgins is the Bitonio of WR's?
Literally nobody is saying this. DPJ's performance down the stretch is promising, but the divide between your side of the argument and mine is that Higgins has that production now, where we're projecting with DPJ. And I'll reiterate the context behind my argument... all indications are that Higgins isn't asking for big bucks. He wants to stay here and he's taken (slightly) less money to do just that. If he is actually asking for too much money, than I myself will throw my argument out the window. The (real, not projected) production that he brings to the offense can be had at good value.
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
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You'll get better debate by talking to the goal posts that Pit is constantly moving around.
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I really have no clue how much he is asking for. I have no problem keeping him. But Higgins is "just another guy" in the grand scheme of things. An average WR on the depth chart. His contract will cost far more than the rookie deal DPJ is under contract for.
Would I like to see us keep Higgins? Sure I would. I simply understand that if we need the money we save between the two contracts to add another piece to the puzzle, I don't see his leaving as being as big of a deal as some seem to. I think that DPJ as a prospect brings a dimension that Higgins doesn't as more of a deep threat. That may be another deciding factor this FO and coaching staff considers.
Maybe I'm just not as invested in the perception some people have of Higgins.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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Maybe I'm just not as invested in the perception some people have of Higgins. I don't think anyone is really invested as much as they're trying to understand why the team wouldn't want a guy that produces, has great hands, and won't cost a lot. That said, I just went to look at his production for 2020, and I have to say, I thought he did more. I know he was inactive for a total of three games and all, but I thought he'd have done more, and I think the basis for that feeling is that he was pretty much invisible early in the season and didn't really come on until the end. Now, was that because he wasn't getting the snaps or because he wasn't getting open when he was getting snaps? Is he perhaps getting open when he's out there, but not getting targeted because he was the second or third read and they were getting targetted? Early in the season, that could have been OBJ. It looks like he wasn't getting a lot of snaps at all the first several weeks. https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/H/HiggRa00/gamelog/2020/The first two games, he had a total of five snaps and one target, then he was inactive the next two weeks. Starting in Week 5, his snap count went up a considerable amount and kept going up over the next few weeks... so, maybe he was just slower to learn the offense?? Over the last eight games of the season, he averaged more than three catches per game on fewer than an average of five targets. and averaged more than 18 yds per reception. SO, that's probably why it feels like he did better for the year than he did, because that second half of the season was a case where almost any time he was targeted, it just went for a ton of yards and a first down.
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Last edited by oobernoober; 03/03/21 03:57 PM. Reason: ... and then I read the rest of Purp's post...
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
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The guy is the most efficient WR we have on the team. I can only imagine what his production would be like with more snaps.
Offensive snap %
2018- 44%
2019- 17%
2020- 49%
I'm a firm believer he is not "just another guy" and the dude's ceiling is a #2 WR. I don't think he'll be a superstar by any stretch but he'd be as reliable and productive as any other WR with more time on the field.
At DT, context and meaning are a scarecrow kicking at moving goalposts.
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Physically, he's the definition of 'JAG'. Multiple (I think he's on his third?) coaching staffs have started him out buried low in the depth chart. I just think that despite that, whenever his number is called he has responded.
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
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because that second half of the season was a case where almost any time he was targeted, it just went for a ton of yards and a first down. He was like that in 2018 too. Imagine giving him more playing time.
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Physically, he's the definition of 'JAG'. I'm not really sure what this means....So, he's 6-1 200lbs: Odell is 5-11 200 Landry is 5-11 195 Tyreek Hill is 5-10 185 Stefon Diggs is 6-0, 190 Justin Jefferson is 6-1, 200 And on and on. The above group isn't a bunch of JAGS. And there have been guys who have been much bigger in frame that have been less than JAGS (ex. Greg Little). I guess I'm not clear on what you are trying to show. That is of course, I'm not including things like speed and you are? Still, the same thing would apply.
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Physically, he doesn't jump off the page in really any way (height, weight, speed, jumping, strength).
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
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Maybe I'm just not as invested in the perception some people have of Higgins. I don't think anyone is really invested as much as they're trying to understand why the team wouldn't want a guy that produces, has great hands, and won't cost a lot. That said, I just went to look at his production for 2020, and I have to say, I thought he did more. I know he was inactive for a total of three games and all, but I thought he'd have done more, and I think the basis for that feeling is that he was pretty much invisible early in the season and didn't really come on until the end. Now, was that because he wasn't getting the snaps or because he wasn't getting open when he was getting snaps? Is he perhaps getting open when he's out there, but not getting targeted because he was the second or third read and they were getting targetted? Early in the season, that could have been OBJ. It looks like he wasn't getting a lot of snaps at all the first several weeks. https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/H/HiggRa00/gamelog/2020/The first two games, he had a total of five snaps and one target, then he was inactive the next two weeks. Starting in Week 5, his snap count went up a considerable amount and kept going up over the next few weeks... so, maybe he was just slower to learn the offense?? Over the last eight games of the season, he averaged more than three catches per game on fewer than an average of five targets. and averaged more than 18 yds per reception. SO, that's probably why it feels like he did better for the year than he did, because that second half of the season was a case where almost any time he was targeted, it just went for a ton of yards and a first down. Hodge got the playing time that would have been for Higgins, until OBJ was hurt, then Higgins playing time increased.
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The guy is the most efficient WR we have on the team. I can only imagine what his production would be like with more snaps.
Offensive snap %
2018- 44%
2019- 17%
2020- 49%
I'm a firm believer he is not "just another guy" and the dude's ceiling is a #2 WR. I don't think he'll be a superstar by any stretch but he'd be as reliable and productive as any other WR with more time on the field. Duke Johnson was like that...
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Hodge got the playing time that would have been for Higgins Because Hodge plays special teams. Maybe that is negative on Higgins.
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Good luck at your new stop, Higgins. 
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While Higgins might not want "a lot" of money, I'm guessing he wants a decent chunk of the money to be guaranteed. I'd guess Berry might be okay with Higgins' number, but not guaranteeing it. I can see both sides if that is the case. Higgins wants more security, Berry wants more flexibility.
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Full quote doesn't seem as negative as MKC portends in the final sentence of her tweet.
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It's not that much better. But yes, thanks to Trotter for actually encapsulating the entire quote.
I still have yet to listed to the press conference.
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