DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Palus Politicus Communism

I think you have two elements working against each other. You have the greed element of the 1%'ers wanting to maintain or expand their wealth. Their main source of that income is the middle class. You also have them investing - I won't say giving or donating, because they get a return - their money into controlling government to achieve this end.

As the wealth gap increases, you have a depleting middle class who is going to see this unbridled element, and ask the government to step in more and more to rectify it. That's why you see more and more coverage of people like AOC or Sanders than you did 10 or 20 years ago.

I see it as "where does the collective dynamic stop" not just "where does the socialism stop" because the wealthy elite should see it coming, like I mentioned earlier. The last time it reached this degree, we ended up with unions, minimum wages, all the way through the New Deal, and then WW2, which oddly and sadly made things better for everyone here economically.

I think to get back to a healthy degree of capitalism, the power and control aspect must be stripped from the wealthy, the bailouts have to stop, and anti-trust must be enforced. On the other side, we do have to ensure that we don't create a system that promotes reliance on government and creates disincentives for people to actively contribute to the economy (Venezuela obviously being a prime example of this extreme).

That's a good point. I should have added you also have to establish a floor of basic human and worker rights.

I’m struggling to understand why people equate tax and communism together.

A higher or lower tax rate in the same economic system does not determine whether or not it’s communism. I seriously do not understand this logic.

Here in America, the tax rate being 20% or 28% does not determine the system of government. Tax rates do not determine who is in a free market system or not, or whether or not they are private or owned by the state.

Why do those on the right keep pushing such a false and destructive narrative like this?

Its not a false narrative. Its reality. You liberals keep pushing Europe as some kind of socialist model that America needs to follow. Then ALL the facts need to come to light, including how they pay for it. Dont keep your head in the sand or sweep it under the rug.

No - that's not accurate at all.

Europe keeps being brought up to highlight that they are LEFT of the Democratic party and they are NOT communist. It's pretty simple.

How much tax they pay is a different matter entirely and NOT an easy comparison to make.... if a typical middle class earner in the USA pays 12% of their paycheck for health insurance ... that's not a "TAX" ... but that same middle class earner in Europe pays a higher tax but does not have a health insurance payment to make.

Trying to make this about tax misses the point entirely.

I’ve been on record wrecking the left for letting Bernie sanders warp their idea of Western Europe.

Which you clearly don’t much about, either. Educate yourself on the economies in different countries there. Educate yourself on their governments.

A lot of you guys on the right display the idea that you actually don’t know what capitalism, socialism, communism, or fascism is. Because clearly if you did, you know we have a ton of elements of socialism right here in America.

You clearly don’t know what communism is, either. But this is America. Everything out of the conservative American norm is communist.

Whats worse? Paying 12% of your paycheck, or a 20% increase on everything you buy? Including your house, car, clothes, travel, everything! Services too! You want that in America? I remember some Dems were floating that idea.

LOL...

You really don't get it. Oh well.

For context ... the 20% VAT you alluded to is not a tax on "EVERYTHIN".... food and numerous other items are excluded. It is very much like a sales tax. . . . so 12% health insurance on INCOME. . . . and 6.5% sales tax that we pay on EVERYTHING is certainly equivalent to the 20% VAT you mentioned.

It's really not hard. If you want to get distracted by the bright shiny light and sensational "OMG 20% TAX ON EVERYTHING" instead of looking at the details ... knock yourself out.

So are you denying that they use VAT tax to pay for their nanny state?

I can say the same thing about you and your denial.

Is this liberal math? 6.5 sales tax is equal to 20% sales tax? No wonder you think socialism is "free" Quit being in denial.

Oh and if you want to talk about income tax, Europeans pay way higher income tax than Americans do.

https://tradingeconomics.com/country-list/personal-income-tax-rate

Educate yourself.

I've pointed out to you multiple times that you fixating on "TAX" is missing the point. And here you are trying to make more "TAX" points like it somehow proves something.

Carry on.

Take your head out of the sand. Europeans pay substantially higher taxes to pay for their "free" socialism services.

It not like paying outrageous insurance rates to cover the uninsured...

Oh wait, we have been doing that since Reagan....

They get you one way or another, and right now the game if rigged in favor of the insurance providers.

So ... dragging this thread back on track....

1. Democrats are not even remotely close to resembling Communists. No-one has said a damn thing different.

2. And footnote - Taxes have nothing to do with communism either. Despite some poster's fixation on taxation.

Thanks!

The thread morphed, as they usually do.

Do you want to pay 55% or so in taxes? So you can save the 12% you say people pay for health insurance? (my wife's health insurance is free for her. She pays approximately 7.5% for me and our daughter.)

I don't.

Let's say you are at the 38% tax bracket. You want to pay an additional 17% so I can have health care on you?

They mostly don't pay.

What reality do you live in? The middle class pays the majority of the taxes collected in America. The rich can afford to pay their fair share but don’t due to trump. So just stop it with the “they mostly don’t pay” BS.

He thinks anyone not like him lives on his handouts... Nevermind that dems on average are more educated which one can say leads to making more money... He's just sure if you are on the left, you spend all your time worrying about how to get your hands on his tax money.

That isn't true. I really don't mind paying taxes. I am happy I am in a position to pay taxes v not paying taxes.

Possibly my above comment is jaded by the recent influx of illegals flooding in to the country, so I will walk back that comment some.

Our differences are on where we spend that money. As a for instance, I would rather spend the money we are now allocating to the illegals on the boarder, people who haven't paid taxes or deserve our tax support to already existing homeless people in this country.

I would rather set up trailer camps for them in a big way rather than see tent cities crop up all over the country.

I would rather take the $billions we spend in other countries and use that money to help those on team USA. Take care of home first.

have to grab my umbrella and put in at last 2-3 miles this morning. I will check back later.

Agreed. We can start here...,
“More recently, in fiscal year 2019, the US provided $3.8 billion in foreign military aid to Israel. Israel also benefits from about $8 billion of loan guarantees. Almost all US aid to Israel is now in the form of military assistance, while in the past it also received significant economic assistance.”

That’s $3.8 billion we can use here. Just think, Israel provides free healthcare to their citizens. $3.8 billion could really kickstart our Medicare for All program.
You down?


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel–United_States_relations

You're still fixated on immigrants coming into our country even after I gave you proof our southern border is closed to EVERYONE EXCEPT unaccompanied minors. Expand your news sources. And please don't go back to your stray cats comparison. It's not attractive.

j/c

As far as "taxes" go.

You have healthcare premiums, copays and deductibles. America pays more per capita on healthcare than any other nation in the world while our actual healthcare system isn't any where near the top. We pay more for prescription drugs than any other nation in the world.

For all of the excuses given not to have national healthcare, all of the facts point in the opposite direction.

I haven't clicked on the link (yet), but comparing tax rates between US and elsewhere might not be an apples-apples comparison. US tax code is a dumpster fire, so while our tax rates are very high, loopholes are all over the place that have many paying far less than their bracket would suggest.

There are a lot of countries where socialism has gone too far as well, with very, very bad results. You can't just look at the good countries and ignore the bad.

One of the problems with socialism is that it requires a strong central government with great power and authority; and how does the saying go? Absolutely power corrupts absolutely, even those with the best starting intentions.

So, based on you post, you'd be willing to stop at universal free healthcare and free college education? Do I have that right?

What about gauranteed basic income that many on the left are pushing for? Is that too far?

I think we will eventually get to a better healthcare system, but we, as in the United States, have a lot of questions to answer before we get there:

1. Why is our obesity rate 15% higher than European countries? (Is this also why our death-rate from COVID is so high? I think so) This greatly effects our healthcare system costs, even today. Are you willing to be forced to eat healthier to make a system work? Will we be forced to pay a tax on unhealthy food?

2. What are we going to do about illegal immigrants' healthcare? This is another issue that most European countries don't have to deal with as much.

3. Are we willing to tell people with Down-syndrome and other detectable birth-defects they shouldn't have been born because they are a drain on the system? I'm not able to say that, but those Scandinavian countries people like to tout have come to that conclusion. Most of those countries also have higher abortion rates of "unwanted" pregnancies.

Those are 3 big factors that play into our healthcare costs, no matter what system we have, and until they are fixed, our healthcare costs are always going to be greater than other countries where they are not issues. With those factors, plus the fact that we are in general a much bigger country than any of the "ideal systems" makes it hard to determine if those systems are really "better."

No, I'm not a proponent of free college. I'm for making college much more affordable. As it stands the federal government takes on paying all college loans that go into default. Yet private institutions give those loans at far above the prime rate. So if we already take on the loan defaults, why not just be in charge of making the loans? Then every student loan could be given at the prime interest rate which would cut of 5% to 6% of the current interest rate they pay. Education shouldn't be used as a financial racket but rather an investment in our nations future.

What I do promote being free is community college. I live in a very red state, Tennessee. We have free two year community college. A student can use it for training in a career that comes with that two year degree or use it to gain credits towards a four or six year degree after completing community college. Getting a lot of those credits free via community college before entering a university will cut the amount of debt a student has to take on in the first place. Even the very red state I live in comprehends that a better educated population brings jobs to your state and is an investment in your states economy moving forward. This will greatly reduce student debt and make a huge cut in the interest rates they are saddled with from their student debt.

I'm for a living wage. When people work 40 hours a week in this nation they should not be forced to live in poverty. As far as a "guaranteed income" for those who do not work, I oppose it. If our nation is paying a living wage and healthcare, you should have an incentive to work at that point. Setting a nationwide standard that does not promote an incentive for people to work is not something I would support. Right now a mother of three often has to make a choice of working a poor paying job or possibly reaching a threshold where she will lose healthcare for her children. There's something wrong with that.

Immigrants who are here illegally do not qualify for government assisted healthcare. I see no reason that should change. But maybe you should look at the influx of Muslim refugees/immigrants that were coming to Europe before you make the claim Europe didn't have to deal with that.

In case you missed it, people already tell those with such impairments as Down Syndrome they shouldn't have children. And eating healthier is better for everyone. Mandate it? No. Better education concerning nutrition and how it impacts our life? Certainly. You see, a healthy diet and eating well is a learned behavior. It's a life style. It's not something you mandate.

If you really wish to point fingers, look at France and their rate of smokers and get back to me.

You also didn't address other factors that greatly impact healthcare costs. Ones I didn't expect you to address.

Drug costs. With a national healthcare system drug costs can be negotiated for your entire nation cutting prescription cost to a fraction of where they are now in the U.S.

Right now procedures can fluctuate by over 100% in the same town depending on where you go to have that procedure done. That too would be negotiated on a national basis to cut the costs by a huge margin.

So while you bring up credible points about what drives healthcare costs, the bottom line is that the points you didn't bring up would cut the average per person healthcare costs in America by a huge margin.

I'm not under the false impression that there is such a thing as "free healthcare". There is such a thing as making it better and more affordable and we aren't doing any of that.

And in case you missed it, many states keep putting heavy restrictions on abortion. Let's not pretend the access is equal to Europe.

I'm for a better educated, better paid, and a healthier populace. Those aren't some pie in the sky liberal ideas. They can be done in a practical way that is better for our entire nation.

The link shows the USA artificially favorable in returns tax - 25% .... where as a country like the UK it says is 45%. There is something very wrong with that picture. not only is fixating on tax missing the point of the discussion but then Eve pulled a totally bogus chart.

[1] The list says it is personal income tax....
[2] 45% is the top tier in the UK - on earnings higher than $200K. Earnings from 0-$17K are 100% income tax free. Up to $70K are at 20%.
[3] In the USA you have federal and state taxes ... so they need to be combined to equate to any EU model.
[4] Taking a $70K income in the UK vs USA - income tax only vs Fed/State USA tax. In the UK you'll pay about $8,400 in tax. (70K-20K * 0.2) vs in the USA it looks to be about $10K in a state like Ohio.
https://www.taxformcalculator.com/state-tax/ohio/70000.html

The tax hysteria is just that. First it was a OMG they have 20% VAT on everything.... which is not true. Then it was 55% income tax ... again, simply not true.

Sensational "headlines" without substance or detail. Very much in keeping with the "the Democrats are Communist" playbook.

I might not start there, but they wouldn't be exempt.

Keep being in denial of the truth. I'll keep posting the truth.

What you said about France made me laugh. I studied abroad in Spain when I was in college and lived with a host family in Madrid. It was awesome. I chose the family because they had two boys, one a year older than me and one a year younger. I figured I could hang out with them. I'm 6'3", fair, blonde-haired and blue eyed, and at the time, I was around 10% bodyfat, and athletic. My first week, they took me to a bunch of night clubs, and used me as "bait" because I was the exotic "rubio" foreigner, which was weird for me.

Nothing happened with me because I had started dating my now-wife already, before I left. Hell, even if I was single, I didn't speak the language great yet, and and I was awkward as hell because I didn't know the culture well yet either. Worked out well for them, though. After a while, I just played the part and quietly drank my Fantas.

I bring that up, though, because I couldn't believe how much my host-brothers smoked. Cartons of cigarettes over there were probably not much more than a pack cost over here. They always watched their portions, though, and walked everywhere since most European cities - like Madrid - are so pedestrian-centric. So they appeared in good shape, aside from their smoking.

When we became friends we used to rib each other. I used to tell them to stop smoking so damn much because it was unhealthy, and they would retort "quit eating so much, fat-ass." I miss those days.

To get back to the conversation, it does seem that - if everyone is paying into a healthcare system - that there is an inherent unfairness to the healthy subsidizing the "willingly" unhealthy (smokers and people with poor health habits), and I put willingly in quotes because there are addictive elements to it and it's not just people choosing outright to be unhealthy. So, there is some empathy there.

It could come down to higher premiums or sin taxes that contribute, but those are just ideas I'm throwing out there. Regardless of the person's situation, you don't really ever want to see someone have to go bankrupt just because they needed to have healthcare. So it again, to me, comes down to finding the balance between accountability and basic human rights.

It is a complicated situation to say the least. But then don't we already do that with private healthcare? I mean to some extent healthcare providers cover everyone and the total costs are spread among all of those they cover. At General Motors or Ford that heavy smoker working next to you gets the same benefits at the same cost you would be. That 300 pound guy in the department across from you is too.

I guess that's sort of the point here. Those who are insured are paying the costs for those who are not insured. They're already paying the costs of those who live a lifestyle that's not conducive to good health. Your doctors and hospitals aren't going to run on a loss. Everyone insured currently are paying for the added costs of smokers and obese people too. For people with preexisting conditions as well. That's already been built into your bills and the bills that your healthcare provider pays and the premiums they charges you or your employer.

On the surface it seems to me that the biggest issue people have is not the fact they are paying for it, but rather the method by which they are paying for it. I mean they're already paying for it whether they realize it or not.

The truth is right there in YELLOW..... it's black and white. Pun intended.

Your "truth" quoted only the largest flat tax bracket for other countries while quoting "25%" for the USA. The USA largest bracket is 37%.... and that doesn't include State income tax. There was no truth there.

My biggest concern with "Government" run healthcare, is that they don't do anything cheaper. Everything the government does costs 10x as much, and has endless paperwork. When they come up short they just tax for more. I'm not sure I trust them to handle it.

If we can find a way to do it where a committee of health care professionals, not politicians, are in control of managing it, then I'm willing to look at it.

Other wise we will end up with a healthcare system much like our education system , when the people making decisions aren't knowledgeable about the business.

While I agree that government is never efficient. The truth and it is backed up by health care cost comparisons from around the world - Government run health care is indeed cheaper than the USA .... the reason is there isn't a couple layers or more of fat hogs taking profit. . . . do a search for the cost of comparable procedures and you will see. So even with (gross) inefficiencies that come with government run anything - healthcare is still cheaper when run by govt.

Have you seen anything from US politicians to honestly believe they would not find a way to pay their debts to their backers by setting up exclusive deals on overpriced MRI machines, XRAY Machines, Supplies, Medications, etc?

Just because other governments run their healthcare efficiently, doesn't mean that the snakes in the Capitol won't find a way to fleece the people.

Other countries have common sense price caps and regulations in their healthcare systems.

USA has no such thing because politicians are in bed with big pharma, etc.