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It will go far beyond a burger.

Housing costs are skyrocketing
So yeah, keep your eye fixed on that burger.

The prices were increasing ANYWAY. Good lord pay attention.

Pssstttt people who are on disability or social security ARE working people. At least most of them were for 30/40/50/ or 60 years. THOSE are the people who deserve a livable wage.

What?? What kind of sense does that make?

So currently working NOT disabled younger people don't deserve a living wage? smh, you are better than that. And I agree that the elderly and disabled should be able to live dignified lives after their productive years. But that doesn't mean others shouldn't have the same.

Yeah, the entire "Get off of welfare but work for so little you can't make a living" crowd drives me nuts. It appears as though they think people should go to work with no incentive to do so. It appears that they support some third class working citizens that work full time and can't even make it from paycheck to paycheck. It makes me sick.

And that's happening due to increased ages? No. It seems you are trying to blame a current problem on something totally unrelated. What saddens me the most is you can damned well afford price increases in order for the poor to make more money at their jobs yet you seem to begrudge that to them anyway.

So only "certain people" deserve better wages even when doing the same job and everyone else can just bite the big one?

Well, almost none of that had anything to do with my statement. I'll address most of it anyway...

Nobody is forced into their parent's basement unless they have ZERO ambition or desire for something better. Yet you state that two entire generations have been... en masse... and it's my fault?

"We as a working population have lived on credit so damn long we've forgotten how to live within our means."
That's unfortunate... If only they could be provided a calculator, maybe they could see the error of their ways?

"Same with cashiers, city service workers, police, fire, food service, hospitality, etc."
These people are all on welfare? Not sure where you get your numbers from, you might want to seek out some other sources. Here, I have direct experience with one of those rungs on the ladder. I owned a restaurant for 16 years (two for a few years), I've had as many as 75 employees. I have NEVER, ever, had more than two employees on welfare. Every time it was a single mother with kids. Does she deserve a "hand-up"? Sure. But the funny thing is, in nearly every incident, I was asked to under-report their wages and hours so that it wouldn't affect their benefits ~ OR ~ they made sure they were only available for enough hours to maintain their benefits. In your world, it's my fault she couldn't make ends meet.

Did I divorce her from her husband when they were up to their ears in debt? No.
Did I dress up as a stork and drop off three kids on her front porch? Nope.
Should I pay everybody based on how many kids they have? That doesn't make much sense.
YET -- I'm the bad guy.

In one specific incident, this mother came to me with a plan... She wanted to get off welfare because she saw that the mentality was a dead-end. We calculated how much she could make and still maintain healthcare benefits. She busted her ass, over a three year period she quadrupled what she made in the beginning. I didn't continue to reward her because she "had three kids", I did it because she worked hard and cared about my restaurant like it was her own. Today she works full-time at the Dept of Corrections, making 50k per year, and still works part time at the same restaurant. She walks in every other Saturday for a five hour shift -- and walks out with $120 - $150.

Another waitress started at age 21... Product of a bad upbringing and abuse. She worked her way through college. On her last day she came into my office with a thumbdrive and plugged in her spreadsheet. I was astounded that the was so thorough from the day she started. For her entire restaurant career she averaged 21.50 per hour. She cried as she thanked me for the opportunity -- I made it clear that her wage was a product of her own hard work, my restaurant was just the vehicle. She still works part time at the restaurant, mostly because she wants to help out, not because she really needs the cash -- she makes over 80,000 per year.

One dude was fed up with the hard work. He worked his way to $15 per hour with me, it wasn't enough. He went to work at two or three downtown establishments, making a name for himself despite no culinary degree. He made big bucks. He called one day for a reference, he was leaving his high-paying gig downtown.
"Why are you leaving?"
"I'm tired of being responsible for people who don't want to show up for work and don't want to work when they get there."
Today, he's a regional sales manager for US Foods making over 80k per year.

Another waitress worked her way through college, left for a real job with great wages, then came back. Why? "I'm young (25), I don't plan on getting married or having kids for a while. I love it here, we're like one big happy family. I love my customers. I'd like to take a more active role here." She became FOH manager and stayed for two more years before leaving for her "real job".

Starting to see a theme here?

^ What are all those examples? ^ People that had the common sense to realize that working in a restaurant is a stepping stone, not a career choice. If you make it a career choice, you might not live the Utopian life you're dreaming of.



There are those who make it a career choice. Imagine being a dishwasher for life and being happy with it? It happens. One dude was probably the most loyal employee in my tenure. Dial him up on a Saturday morning... "You need me? I'll be right there!"
Where did he start? Grew up in the ghetto, drug dealer in West Palm Beach. He had been shot twice, stabbed, and had all of his teeth bashed out with a baseball bat. What made him decide to get in a car and drive up north to become one of the few black dudes in the middle of Amish country? Lord only knows. Two years in, he was still living in the shadows of his former mistakes in life... kept getting popped for driving without a license. Wasn't allowed a license because he had $18,000 in fines and court costs. We worked with Florida, I spent countless hours on the phone to get to the right person that was willing to take a peek at someone turning their life around and work towards a solution. In the end, I wrote a $2500 check and we translated the rest of his fines to community service in Ohio so he could get a license and change his life... he was pretty tired of riding a bicycle to work or asking for rides.
"Still showing up for community service bro?"
"I got to!"
Dude worked his butt off, always cared about the restaurant as if it were his own. He'd come in on Mondays and help with maintenance, I paid him $100 per month to blow out compressors on coolers every other week. Two hours per month, $100. Why? It costs me a lot more to pay for constant cooler repairs and I'm too busy to do it myself.
When I left he was one of the highest paid dishwashers in history. NOT because I overpaid him, because he made himself worth that much.

I could go on all day. The theme remains that if you work hard, have common sense about you work ethic and choices of employment, strive towards a goal -- you'll do alright in life.


Aaaand... since this has turned into a novel that no one will read, I'll address your last statements.

I appreciate everybody that works hard for a living, pandemic or no pandemic. Why? Because I DID struggle.
I lost both parents by the age of six.
I was a ward of the state.
I've been through five different family situations and went to eight different schools.
By 23 I had a wife and three kids.
I worked 70 hours per week so my wife could be a "stay at home".
I bought most of my clothes at Goodwill 'til I was almost 30.
We did without.
We made sacrifices.
I still saved and saved until I could buy my own restaurant.
I risked everything including my marriage to make it happen.
I drove to work with knots in my stomach, praying to God for help, when the restaurant couldn't pay the bills at the beginning.
I REFUSED TO FAIL.

I started as a burger flipper and ended my foodservice career SURROUNDED by success stories, not just my own. I helped, I mentored, and created humans willing to do the same. WE fed the homeless and donated to worthy causes. WE did things like catered meals for crisis intervention programs, abused mothers, drug addiction facilities, etc... For free. I bought the food, employees came and worked for ZERO.

The dude from Florida? When he got kicked out of one apartment because he couldn't pay the rent, because he was tossed in jail for driving without a license, my employees helped him find a new place. The previous was your basic crack house -- four different dudes living there -- he was heading down the same tired road. Dude had nothing but some clothes when I showed up to help him move out. When he hit me up to see his new apartment, the day after he moved in -- I was shocked. My employees made a shopping list and had the place furnished the day he moved in. Couch, bed, microwave, dishes, towels, you name it -- it was there. Dude looked at me with tears in his eyes. "I gotta do better, you guys have done so much for me, but I gotta do better" THAT's when his conviction changed and we worked together to turn the rest of his life around.

What am I to you? A dude that lived a life of "white privilege"... The bad-guy-business-owner that took advantage of everyone as if they were tried and sentenced to work in my restaurant for a slave wage.

Do I begrudge anybody a "living wage" (whatever that means)? NO. But you have to earn it. Life isn't a vending machine where everybody puts in a quarter and receives the same gumball.

What do you think is better, more sustainable? If everyone strives to be an example like the ones above... get's rewarded for hard work, helps others get to the same place ~ OR ~ we all show up like drones and make the same wage regardless of our ambition, work ethic or direction in life? Seriously?

So, I know you think I'm evil or don't care about others. Jaded and ignorant -- can't see the forest through the trees... Colored "red" when all the good people paint themselves blue, etc, etc... As long as you keep painting in such broad strokes -- with only two colors, you'll accomplish nothing but endless arguments, hatred and finger-pointing. If that's what you need to make yourself feel better, that's fine. But let me ask you a question... What are YOU doing to make a difference besides attacking people on Dawgtalkers?

You don't have to answer, but make no mistake...

What I see when I look in the mirror and what you think I see could not be any more different.

While I won't use the word welfare per say, what happens is that the taxpayer does pay for benefits of many people who work for corporations that make billions. I call it corporate welfare.

Let me give you an example. In Ohio a family of four qualifies for Medicaid if they make less than $3,013 per month. That's over 36k a year. A pregnant woman qualifies if they make less than $2,180 per month.

This means if someone has a family of four, even if they make 17$ an hour, works 40 hours a week for 52 weeks a year without a day off, you and other tax payers will be paying their healthcare bill.

Yes, a family of three would have to make less but it's well above the poverty level and far beyond anything close to the minimum wage. A pregnant woman alone would have to earn over 12$ an hour.

https://www.policygenius.com/blog/a-state-by-state-guide-to-medicaid/

If you can't see that we are allowing businesses to pay wages that are so low that our tax dollars must subsidize their employees as some of these corporations make billions while at the same time pay a lower percentage in taxes than you do, then we disagree about it being a problem.

This is by far the longest post I ever remember you making... did I hit a nerve?

I mean don't take this convo personal, when I addressed you, I was really addressing the issue of others not valuing those around them. Like, I think you are only worth $2 an hour and think it would be stupid for anybody to pay you more than that because it's all you are worth.

Obviously people should work to earn their money... BUT if you are doing the job, day in and out, putting in 40+, then you should not live in poverty, period. Can we agree to that much? I'm not sure you can.

And I used to sound like you about people on welfare. I used to get mad when others got handouts too, often feeling like I work much harder and they just slide by on the generosity of the system... Then I realized how big of a crock of crap that mindset is. Those people never took a nickel out of my pocket that I didn't willingly give. The government spends so much tax money that I could get bent that these people are getting my tax dollars, but it's either them, the MIC, or some third world despot getting foreign aid. I would rather help those in my country that are struggling, regardless of the reason they are struggling because that is never black and white. But I absolutely get where you are coming from, I just think it's an ugly place.

And btw, I do a lot to help others. Donating, I help twice a year with food drives, volunteer help for DAV events a couple times a year, and we try to donate as many gifts as we can for children at christmas. I do that along with the daily things I run into. Just last week a woman was at the cashier at Kroger and was short a few dollars, I noticed her looking at the sparse cart for some staple she could do without to make up the difference... Everytime I see this kind of thing I try to help with a few buck that mean little to me but the world to them.

And FYI, I spend an average of about 1/2 an hour a day on here. Most days I stop in a few times, read and make a couple post then I'm out, so you trying to paint me as the keyboard warrior is a farce. Try again.

If you did all that and still wasn’t making much money then I don’t know what your point is. Cause the things OCD and I are talking about would help you, not hurt.

I read your post thoroughly...and I’m not sure how any point you made would remotely change how OCD and I view this. Like, at all.

No matter how you try to frame it, just like individuals aren’t entitled to a 100k lifestyle, companies aren’t entitled to cheap labor.

That’s the part that you and others keep missing. Companies are not entitled to cheap labor, whether they call themselves a small business or a corporation. These companies don’t WANT to pay people. This is why they moved so many jobs overseas from the jump, remember?

They saved so much money on labor cost and STILL jacked up the prices. When I look at how jacked up corporations have made the labor force in this country, I’m simply not gonna align myself with dudes who defend entities that don’t give two craps about you or anyone else.

You’re defending people who would fire you and give your job to someone in China - or a robot - KNOWING that those same corporations are ALSO looking for a way to replace Chinese workers with cheaper labor.

You and I clearly won’t come to any understanding on this. Just isn’t gonna happen.

Haha. You hit a nerve on most days, today I just started typing instead of rolling my eyes lol. Sorry for all the rambling.

I don't think I was lumping all welfare recipients into the same category, I don't even know how you got that from what I wrote. I just think categorizing all business owners as living "high on the hog" while they treat their employees like slaves is ridiculous. That seems to be the going sentiment around here, at least with the people that are vocal.

We can agree on the "working 40 hours day in and day out" 100 percent! Why aren't there mandates that require that? I did it because I respected the work of my employees, others - not so much. It's no secret that's the reason why I had the best staff of any restaurant around me. But make no mistake, very few restaurants have the capability to provide one with "the great life", two cars and a boat, college funds and retirement plans. It simply will never work that way. It's not because of the restaurants, it's because consumers will never pay $30 for a cheeseburger.

Sounds like you're a good dude -- we all should strive to be half as good. My restaurant family donated thousands to DAV, that's a great charity that makes sure the money goes where it belongs. And the grocery store thing? That's one of my "heart is full" moments, handing a guy $20 while he was putting things back in the cart to take off the bill. Trying to provide for his family. It wasn't "thanks", it was a grown man crying, cashier crying, me trying to get them both to wipe their tears and smile while I gave the dude a hug and told him to pay it forward someday. Life is full of those opportunities and you will NEVER get more satisfaction from a $20 bill.

I'm sorry if I offended you. I'm guilty of categorizing as well and I took it out on you to an extent. It is so tiresome to argue about the same issues, over and over, when neither party wants to see another point of view. I'll try to do better.

It seems you are managing to confuse a livable wage with two cars and a boat?

Can you explain how you managed to reach to such extreme measures?

Most of us are just talking about people making enough your tax dollars aren't subsidizing their incomes.

Touche -- you're right. I only talk in those extremes because that is the mindset of others, with their crazy extremes.

To be fair, some posters here think a snotty-nosed kid pressing a button to put coffee in a cup deserves 15-20 bucks an hour -- they've said as much, numerous times. I don't. There is no way in hell they'll ever achieve that mysterious "living wage" by providing a skillset that can be accomplished by any six-year-old with a pulse. Just ain't gonna happen, no matter how much you want it to. For anybody that places their ambition to "achieve" at that level -- they'll probably always need a government subsidy. I don't even mind that, or that my tax dollars pay for it. It's a much better choice than giving them all $20 per hour to press a button. Sorry, not sorry.

There are millions of entry-level jobs in this world. They aren't and were never meant to provide a "living wage". If that's your ambition level, you'll get the crumbs... or better yet... enough to put gas in your car, pay your insurance and take the girlfriend to the school dance. THAT'S who those jobs are made for, and there will be an endless supply of people willing to do that work for those wages -- unless we all stop making babies.

Paying $15 for someone to "press a button" is quite a demeaning stretch. I think there can be a discussion into the value of the work being performed, but that type of analogy I think actually lends credence to the counterargument that there is an out-of-touch, lack of empathy coming from those who do not want to see the wages increased.

On the flip side, I also think you could apply that analogy to CEOs. When you think about it, the CEO at Lockheed Martin controls a company that is almost entirely earning its revenue from government resources. Can you say that the ratio of his salary to the average worker represents a true value of what he should be paid for his job?

This argument is one I see often but isn’t well thought out.
Who is supposed to work at McD’s or other such ‘low importance’ jobs when school is in?
Am I as a nurse going to need to start pulling day shifts at McD’s to keep their labor needs afloat until the last bell rings at the local high school?

Yet I have posted on here more than once that the very reason a federal minimum wage was brought about in the first place was to provide a bottom level wage that provides for people to make a livable wage.

I get the premise of what you're saying. I get that we could both come up with extreme examples in both directions. Star Bucks is one such extreme. There are also many people working in manufacturing not making a living wage. There are people in retail not making a living wage.

So you're saying Star Bucks whose net worth is over 30 billion dollars shouldn't pay its workers a living wage? And that we as tax payers should be paying this multi billion dollar corporations employee healthcare? Really?

Actually the 15$ an hour wage isn't a "living wage", that's just the term used to describe it.

I've always thought the same thing. It seems like the argument being made is that fast food and fast casual restaurants should be closed during school hours. Hopefully, those kiddos don't have any extracurricular activities after school hours!

There’s going to be a lot of hungry day shift workers going hungry when all those places need to close for school hours. The lines at those drive though windows get long at lunch hour. Guess they need to start packing lunches.

Well, if you go into your local McDonalds during morning hours, there are generally "older" people working... school or no school. What are they getting paid? Hell if I know, I would bet that they make more, probably not much more. Many of them are older people who want to (or need to) make a few bucks. Many probably want a few hours per week, while the kids are in school, to supplement their income.

We go back to the bottom line -- working at McDonalds is a very weak career choice because you won't make much money. Anybody working there should be trying to get the hell out (if they want to make more), and finally, nobody is shackled and chained and forced to work at McDonalds.

And they could go door to door cutting grass and make LOTS more money. But we all know homeowners are more accountable to pay kids well than corporations are.

And as usual, while I type that, two ridiculous posts appear here. Yep, close McDonalds during morning hours and everybody pack a lunch.

Well who is that is working there full time during school hours if the jobs are intended for high school kids?

***Read your post above.

Why do we have people talking as if it’s only young people working these minimum wage jobs? Last I checked, the bulk of these low hourly wage jobs are worked by adults all around our ages, in all demographics.

Has our federal minimum wage increased with inflation? The cost of everything has gone up, but not the minimum wage.

You can say I'm out of touch, but the facts are the facts. The job requires absolutely no skillset and can be accomplished by a first-grader.

"The flip side" is egregious. I've never in my life stated anything different. Our country is owned by corporations and Wall Street. It makes me want to puke. How do they keep it that way? They keep us divided by color (red or blue) and we scream at each other instead of trying to change what's wrong. How does a corp make billions with less tax liability than you or I? They buy politicians whose sole obligations seem to be helping the corps make more money, pay less taxes, and keep you and I at each other's throats.

What if everybody put 1/50th the effort into fighting for campaign reform, tax reform, term limits; as they do for "Fifteen For All"?

We keep kicking kneecaps instead of punching people in the face. Until we do, nothing changes. Once we do, the paradigm shift could accomplish nearly everything we fight about.

NO, NO, NO, and hell no. What you are saying is a 16 year old working 10 hours a week deserves a better income than those 60/70/ and 80 year olds who worked their entire life deserve. We will but heads like two giant old rams on this one bro.

You probably need to "check harder". Walk into Chipotle, Dunkin, Burger King and you see that 80% of the employees are under 25.

Minimum wage NEEDS TO GO UP, by leaps and bounds, over a short period of time, with caveats.

Minimum wage for under 18
Minimum wage for 18-21
Mandatory wage increases for service time
Much higher minimum wage for over 20 hours

And yes, subsidies for those who are "stuck at" minimum. I don't even care if it's their own fault. That makes much more sense than taking an AXE to the middle-class and fixed income by paying everybody double what they're making now.

I agree with a large part of what you said.

However, as someone who has a kindergartener and second grader, I don't think they are quite ready for a job in customer service making various coffee/espresso drinks.

My wife used to work at Panera when she was putting herself through school, as well. It was more demanding - at least physically - than she originally anticipated. It's one thing to look down from afar, and it's another thing to actually do the job.

That is exactly what you and others are saying. Your saying young folks deserve it and old folks can go make love to themselves.

Nope. In my eyes every corp making over a certain profit threshold should be forced to reward the people "doing the work" a certain percentage of the profit. You know the paradigm that "corporations should work on the behalf of shareholders"? I think that entire plan should be scrapped and turned inside out. It's fubar. The obligation should be to the employees and the shareholders get the scraps.

We need some massive changes in how "top heavy" this country is. That is the problem. Not the small business owner that pays himself/ herself last. Most of my endless rambling is because small business employs 70-80% of the workers in this country and get's lumped together with "all that is evil".

Yeah, that "duty to shareholders" paradigm really set things on a very bad course. It'll be hard to change it because it would mean that Wall Street would suffer.

Lol. I've done that work my entire life bro. Not looking down from afar, providing a glimpse from the inside.

No -- six-year-olds can't pour coffee, but if anybody with a pulse can accomplish the task, how much should the pay be?

Not $2.13 an hour with the hope for tips.

I applaud you for trying, but some just don't or won't get it.

They don't understand inflation. They blame corporations, and yet 8,100,000 jobs are open. Right now.

While McDonalds, and fast food restaurants were never to be 'livable wage' jobs - some want that. Inflation is here. And most of those griping about 'not being paid a livable wage' are the ones that buy their crap from companies overseas - so they can save a buck or so.

It's the old "pay me more for my job, but I'm buying stuff made from other countries cause it's cheaper" attitude.


Mishmash of thoughts here: 1. Some people don't understand a LOT of stuff. You don't start at the top. 17 year old nephew started a job about 6 months ago. 8.85 an hour. He's now at well over 12 an hour. Why? Cause he shows up, and does the work, very well. I know some will say that's me being unmindful of the so called 'big picture'.........but jobs are out there.

At least, here. Companies cannot find people that show up for work!!! Period.

When people can make - get - enough by sitting at home doing nothing, what do you think they'll do?

Jobs are available.

But, no, we need to poo poo the jobs and the work ethic in order to give to those that can, but won't. They blame republicans, or capitalism. They blame companies making a profit. Many of them are also getting a pension that they feel they self funded. Uh, they paid in some, but the stock market is the one making them the money. I just get sick............."hey, I paid in for 30, 40 years - I better get my monthly pension", and then turn around and want to accuse companies of making a profit. (no matter what they think, that pension money is coming from businesses making a profit)

I've listed several places just around here that will pay $20-$27 an hour for part time work on Sat. and Sunday.

We've got one guy on here saying even $20 an hour isn't a livable wage.

We've got another that has a friend who is cheating the system - getting unemployment PLUS working a job and getting paid 'under the table' and he's proud of that person. ????

I could go on and on. Some don't understand economics, or business, yet they profess to be experts on it. When costs go up, so do prices for the product they produce. Period. No way around it.

When costs to produce a product go up, so do prices. Period.

Let's lift everyone up, right? Or is it "let's suck everyone down"?

{crickets}

god some people still wanna be stuck back in the the early 1900's sometimes. i don't get it.

anyways, back to automation.

gonna be really interesting to watch how the global shortage of damn near everything, but especially semiconductors, affects companies ability to automate. now would be nice for a big trade deal with a few countries with trillions worth of resources.

I didn’t say I was proud of him but I certainly am not begrudging him. He’s working hard at his under the table job. As hard as he ever worked as a cook. He’s trying to catch on as a full time employee at his under the table job. If that happens he’ll be another in a long line of professional kitchen help/cooks, including myself, that liked the job but hated the pay and moved on. Now the restaurant owners are wondering where their workforce went. Here’s part of the answer.

Addendum: I will say I’m proud of my buddy. I’m proud that he’s taken this opportunity to use this financial windfall to get himself healthy. To see a doctor and a dentist. I’m proud that he’s smart enough to use that money to also fix his car. So I guess I am proud of him. He’s not looked a gift horse in the mouth. He’s a good, hard working man.

The chip shortage, like much of the materials shortage going on right now, is temporary. Pent up demand from people that weren't buying stuff making up for lost time, and supply chains that were dialed back now having to speed back up will eventually get themselves sorted out.

What I'm hoping to see is for us to take a long, hard look at how we've gotten ourselves to this point (entire industries relying on relatively few suppliers in specific locations to supply critical components). There was a story I saw somewhere (might've been here) about Kentucky speedway being rented out for Ford pickups to sit and wait for chips to be installed. These are like 99% completed trucks that you KNOW could otherwise be sold immediately that have to sit and wait. These chip makes have the entire world banging on their door, you'd have to think there are people here in the US thinking along the lines of, "we really need to take steps to remove the risk from our supply chain". The costs savings of sourcing materials from overseas have to look not-so-great when you have parking lots of pickups that can't be sold.