DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum So what's up with our Defense...Part One the Run D

Lets have a lengthy discussion about our D.
Whats wrong with it?
Can and if so How it is to be fixed?

I've read DL. I've read its all Pool's fault. It's all Grantham's fault. But thats all pointing a finger if it was as easy as upgrading on 3 DLmen or changing one safety - we would have a great defense by now.

Well I think it best to first take a look at what we are doing right.

Short yardage - we have done excellent with the 3rd and 1's and 4th and 1's. We have talent and we can overpower teams up front.

Red Zone - we have forced many a good teams to settle for just FGs once they reach our Red-Zone. We seem to have more attention on the box because of no verticle stretch so that our Safeties can be agressive.

We have a defined parameter to set up and deal with zones.

So whats up with our Defense.
I know we have the talent cause I believe this is the most 3 n outs I have ever seen from a Browns team in a season and we have played just 7 games.

Against NE...the offensive machine maybe of all time this year. We had Three 3 n outs and we forced them to punt 6 times. Maybe somebody more industrious than eye can find out - but I'm willing to bet nobody has come as close as a Defense with that success.
So just how bad are we?

A season ago this was the unit that showed so much promise. We now have a healthy Bodden and a talented rookie in EW - two legitimate NFL corners. We have 2 talented and athletic safeties. We have young LBs growing into our system. We had upgraded big time on McKinley for the DE spot with Robaire. We should be better but now that we have an offense people aren't sitting on leads any longer.

Well lets breakdown and look at the units and individuals.

Run D
Robaire, TW n Roye are intended starting DL.
Roye again cannot see the field and TW has had a sore knee??? or old age??? hitting him hard (maybe both). He's gone (IR) and pretty much a coach for us now. So basically our intended starting DL is 2/3 gone.

Robaire is doing some impact but he is not a disciplined 2 gapper and is learning his new trade. Shaun Smith has loads of talent and is perfect for a 2 gap system but again he was never schooled at it. Also he spent a lot of time learning the NT position and then was thrusted into the DE spot after Roye's injury. This leaves Kelley as the NT - he's been in this system for all of his previous 5 years, all under RAC with NE and then Grantham here. He is not all that talented but is the only active DLman that really knows the system well.

One thing I notice 2 gappers in training when the get to game time - if they are not playing disciplined they are shooting gaps and making a play here n there (Robaire Smith) - if they try to play disciplined and are not schooled in technique where its second nature (2-3 seasons to reach the comfort zone) there is a tendancy to have them stand up and stalemate the one blocker and be able to react to the left or right gap. But with this improper technique they lose leverage and any and all chance of penetration.

By no means am I saying don't invest big into the DL next year. What I would like to say though is if you think that is what is wrong with the team and Voila its fixed...you are wrong. Anyone new into the system will have to learn the system to become proficient.

Run D. Actually our DL has done a decent job. Everyone talks about - I watch and they command no double team and therefore are not doing their job. Well to be a disciplined 2 gapper its not always necessary to occupy 2 OLmen to be doing your job.

Our NT play 0 technique (head onto the Center) now it is his responsibility to take care of Runs in both A gaps (the gap between the OGs and the Center or known on offense as the 1 n 2 holes). He neutralizes the Center and if there is a run up the middle should be able to have the proper leverage to push the center in one gap while freeing himself up for the other A gap. Some people think his job is to attack the OG and then bounce back and attack the Center?? No - but what happens is if there is a run up the middle and our NT does his job consistantly to prevent him from doing the job correctly they must put two hats on him. But what some people here are looking at is there is a run in the B or C gaps (3 or 5, 4 or 6 holes) and our NT is only occupying the Center therefore its his fault for not taking out the OG. Well unless he shoots one Gap (and the correct one) there is no way that will happen. So all assume they are not doing their jobs.

Occasionally there will be a B gap hole and a team will run off a 10 yarder. But from what I have seen is that the majority of the successful runs against us have been in the C and D gaps (5 n 7 holes or 6 n 8 holes). What can the DL do better.

Again discipline - but we need to slide and maintain Gap integrity as we slide. Left DE slides and maintains the two A gaps - NT slides and maintains the B n C gaps and the Right DE slides and maintains the C n D gaps... and continue this slide progressively until you string out the run and most likely a LB, Safety, Corner or combo of those make the play. I see this happen more n more but no where often enough. More n more is me seeing this maybe 2-3 times a game as opposed to none...but it has to be ALL THE TIME for us to become dominant.

In the upcoming game look for this picture of unison sliding by the DL stringing out a stretch run. Or look for bad and we have one guy sliding and the other not. Or one guy shooting a gap and ruining the symetry.

Currently though I think we still need two more Impact LBs - one for the ILB and one to replace Willie McG currently our best LB. I know all are pointing their fingers for more impact from the DL...you will be dissapointed cause this D is set up for the impact to be made from the LBs.

Now if you can picture the Gap integrity I hopefully drew for the DL - equal that with the LBs as well. It actually is this crew who has broken down most in that pictured slide of gap responsibilities. We have too many just making a B-line to the ball carrier and then over run the gap responsibility and the RB simply cuts back a few yards and escapes or the outside pursuit is not there and we give the RB the corner...once they get the corner even if we play it well they have 5 yds minimal. And the slide must be discipline even on the 3rd level. The Safety and corner must come up fast and take away the edge - In cover 2 the other safety should slide over to the 2nd tier incase of a cut back run or a option pass and the opposite corner has to slide over to a Safety position. If all simply go to the ball - they lose integrity as a TEAM and the play breaks down.

Right now that is what is happening most...we are seeing mistakes of aggression..individuals doing too much instead of relying on his teamates ability to do their job and to simply do your own job.

Solution: No quick ones. Continuity - coach em up. Upgrades...I think in our front 7 we should always look to upgrade even when they are playing well. I would love to see Shaun Smith as our NT - he's a keeper and he will be awesome once he learns the system and gets in the comfort zone. But we definately need one or two more DE's. Roye can be solid but when? Robaire has done well but still has to learn the system and his peak zone is coming up fast. I'd like to see more speed at the DE spots...Shaun has great speed for NT and size...but more size than is necessary for DE and just ok speed.

LBs...I like DQ he's a keeper - we need a monster ILB that can dominate...NE Brewskie was a DE in college possibly we have to target more DE's for the ILB spot? There are less n less Run oriented Conferences where you will find DE's who are tackling machines!

Wimbley has not been able to control his corner yet. Recognition is #1...he has to recognize run and get outside position but most important leverage on the OT or TE - he must first and foremost cut off that D gap and force the runner in...but he can't get too deep or else all he created was a running lane to the outside. He must beable to drive the blocker towards that C gap while maintaining that outside position and push off when the runner breaks outside. We need more Impact at the LB positions.

Well This is getting too long I think. I hope I wasn't too technical...but if I need be please ask and I'll get more technical. If more simplifications are needed again please ask.

Also we have several posters who know there football hopefully they will present their views and for the fans who think they don't know enough - I'm sure your contributions will be more than acceptable so please don't hesitate.

Cause of length I'll try to get to the Pass Defense - its just I don't know when cause I just don't have much time these days.

solid, solid post

Good post. Finishing tackles would be a good start.

On the surface, our run defense appears to be somewhat improved. We have lowered he amount of yardage given up per game significantly compred to last year. We must be better .... right?

Well ..... not necessarily. We are allowing a staggering 4.7 yards/rush, and are near the bottom of the league in allowing rushing first downs. We have also allowed a ton of big plays in the running game.

This wouldn't be as tremendous a concern .... except that we have been playing a lot of teams who have been forced to throw the ball because of our improvement on offense, and the fact that we've been putting teams behind..

We allowed the Steelers to run for 200 yards, and .1 yards/rush short of 5 yards per. The Bengals ran for 137 on only 26 carries, for a 5.3 per average. The Raiders threw almost 200 on us, despite not having an effective QB, and completing only 14-26. Baltimore gave up on the run due to the score ..... but still gained 111 on only 20 carries, for over a 5 yard/per carry average. New England ran for almost 150 ..... and we allowed Morris only his 2nd 100 yard day of the season. His 1st? Against Cincinnati. His next game after us? 10 carries for 14 yards against Dallas. Miami couldn't run for much of the game because of the score. We still gave up 100 to Brown on only 19 carries. Finally against St. Louis, we managed to out the clamps on an opponent's running game. All it took was them losing their starting RB to injury, along with 80% of their starting OL.

One major problem I have noticed is the second level being caught up, out of position, or juked out of their shoes. They also tend to over pursue in the run game, allowing cutback lanes. Honestly, I can't tell if it's more a talent/ability issue, a scheme issue, or a discipline issue. I think that there may be some truth to all 3.

Much like a layman having car problems ....... I might not know exactly how to fix the problem ..... but I can sure tell there is one.

Good pull Tab...

I wanna see this Leonard dude at the Nose soon...He and Smith may just have that area fixed...Fingers crossed...

We definately need a Run Down ILB to take over for Passing Downs Davis...

We'll have new blood up front next year for sure...U know Savage sees this...I expect the BIG $ FA acquisition to be an Albert Haynesworth type...And possibly Turner at RB...No need for going after the highest money FA Offensive Linemen anymore...THANK GAWD!!!!!!!!!!

IMO we're a STUD DE and a STUD ILB away from dominating for 5 years...

Whether it be Anderson or Quinn I don't think we'll miss a beat with the offense we field...And that slot receiver is masked with a talent like Winslow around...Sanders coming around would be a major bonus...

We get this defense to the point it can hold teams under 20 a agme and we're gonna be hard as hell to beat with the offensive production we now have...We're CLOSE bud...REAL CLOSE...

BTW>>>I'm still waiting for Grantham to show us these disguised blitz packages...

i can't and won't address the x and o stuff, but a question struck me as i read (and agree with, kinda) this comment...

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Short yardage - we have done excellent with the 3rd and 1's and 4th and 1's. We have talent and we can overpower teams up front.

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i agree that we've been better at these situations than others, but what's the talent overpowering teams up front?...i haven't seen that yet...

my question is this...could it be that short yardage, and to a lesser extent the red zone D, is better b/c there's less thinking involved?...those short yardage plays, yes guys need to watch for a trick play, but for the most part, their responsibility is to beat their guy and/or shoot their gap...

alternatively, a typical 2nd and 6 play on the 40 yd line, let's say, each guy has several legitimate plays to look out for...there's seemingly more reading and thinking involved in those situations, and therefore the responsibilities become more complex...

could this D simply be lacking the mental grasp of the system, whether it be due to lacking intelligence or experience?...

YTOWN...

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Much like a layman having car problems ....... I might not know exactly how to fix the problem ..... but I can sure tell there is one.

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just a heads up...i'm gonna steal that from you...

DinD...

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And possibly Turner at RB

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i know this is all about D, but yes please...

Haynesworth?...isn't he a penetrating-type DT?...if we could convert a guy like that to 3-4 end, why dump Warren when we did?...yeah, he was lazy, but still better than the stiffs we've fielded to date...

YA shouldn't have made this thread
I'm just gonna copy-n-paste most of the suff I said on the other defense threads...

The primary mistake I see Grantham and Romeo making here is using Smith at DE. While a 3-4 needs good DE, the NT position is absolutely critical. Smith should have been put at NT from day one of camp and never moved anywhere else.

Moving him to DE in preseason was a horrendous mistake for this season. While the kid has the ability to develop into a good DE, he is the only player on the roster that can really belly up to the bar at NT. He needs to develop technique, but he would be well on his way by now if he had been started and kept there.

We can say Phil hasn't brought much talent on this side of the ball there are other factors as well..
Roye..hurt and older, SS playing DE instead of NT...Kelley playing NT , yet he gets shoved everywhere..Smith, not a impact DE but a upgrade who has to learn not to overpursue or take the wronginside gap..

It's our linemen overpursuing and NOT staying in their gaps..
Case in point I've seen R.Smith start out to his side of the ball then cut inside only to get tapped at the hole..
Andre is often overpursing and just isn't instinctive enough to know where the ball is coming..but thats nothing new for him
Dq just gets handled when he isn't freed up..

Wimbley is a DE; get used to it. He's NOT an OLB in any stretch of the 3-4 definition. A 3-4 OLB has multiple responsibilities; rushing the passer, covering a TE or RB on pass routes, and keeping containment on outside runs. Wimbley rushes the QB.
HE has trouble stretching a play or sealing it back to the inside...but he is learning the position...


but have you noticed in the last few weeks to cover up weaknesses and injuries we went from a base 34 to a hybrid 2-4-5 and or sometimes a
4-2-5 scheme?
One of the biggest problems is the lack of fundamentals..
Here's a quote from Rac...

"We have some guys who aren't quite disciplined enough to get aligned where they needed to be aligned to put themselves in position to stop the run," said the coach. "Then we have some guys who get beat at the line of scrimmage. It's all part of it. We have to do a better job of getting those guys to understand where they need to be so that we can stop the run."


So it's a lack of talent and a lack of discipline which points both to players and the defensive coaches..

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he must first and foremost cut off that D gap and force the runner in...but he can't get too deep or else all he created was a running lane to the outside.

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I have noticed this time & time again, Wimbley relys too much on his aggresive speed off the ball, many times at the wrong time, He must and will recognize run vs pass formations...many times he explodes and take the deep rush only to have the RB cut back and instead of stringing the RB out and turning him back into the LB, he takes himself out of the play and creates a lane for the RB to run. He will learn when to use his speed and when to stand his ground, we've all bought into his pass rushing abilities and made a big deal out of it, asking how many sacks this year, maybe he bought into it too, too much.

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Good post. Finishing tackles would be a good start.

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In the words of vince Lombardi...Grab..Grab..Grab...thats all were doing out thier....Grab...Grab...Grab...I see way to much of this instead of wrapping up and driving thru the ball carrier it looks like we wanna grab onto him and swing him to the ground, this is the NFL, very few RB go down like this, and the ones that do dont play for to long. It's almost like our players are afraid to try to wrap & drive becuase of the fear of over committing and being jewked out and missing, hopefully and I'm sure they do realize you make a RB stop and jewk, the rest of the Def. will catch up to him....most of the time.

I am by no means a guru at ANY side of the ball but my SMALL bit of knowledge comes from playing offense... With that said, posts like yours and Attack's make perfect sense when broken down that way and it was LONG overdue to see a thread like this appear on the boards...

You may still have me on ignore from last year but my hat goes off to you for a GREAT post...

I am anxious to get yours and Attack's take on the Pass Defense... I see MANY issues with Sean Jones and Pool but cannot figure out if it is lack of experience, positioning, scheme or coaching or a little bit of each... One thing is for sure, both players ARE quite talented...

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I see MANY issues with Sean Jones and Pool but cannot figure out if it is lack of experience, positioning, scheme or coaching or a little bit of each... One thing is for sure, both players ARE quite talented...

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I say it's experiance not only in playing but playing with each other, knowing If I just the route and go for the inercetion, so in so will have my back and be in position to make a play or not break ocverage, there still learning to play in the secondary with each other.

There's a lot I could point to as far as ability and technique but here's one issue that doesn't get talked about enough.

Experience

After 3 full seasons in the NFL the light is on. You've seen just about every team. You've been in the system and should know your responsibilities and your teammates responsibilities well. Mental errors should be minimal and you should be at peak physical condition.

There is then a window of about 5 seasons to play your best football.

After Year 8 then the physical abilities start to really deteriorate. All the injuries catch up to you and players that extend their careers beyond this point started as very good players from the start who have learned to make up for physical limitations and contribute.

The Window = Start of Year 4 - End of Year 8

Defensive Starters on the Browns

DE Orpheus Roye 12th Year, Undrafted Free Agent
NT Ethan Kelly 3rd Year, 7th Round Pick
DE Robaire Smith 8th Year, 6th Round Pick
LOLB Willie McGuinest 14th Year, 1st Round Pick
ILB Andra Davis 6th Year, 5th Round Pick
ILB D'Qwell Jackson 2nd Year, 2nd Round Pick
ROLB Kamerion Wimbley 2nd Year, 1st Round Pick
LCB Eric Wright 1st Year, 2nd Round Pick
RCB Leigh Bodden 5th Year, Undrafted Free Agent
SS Sean Jones 4th Year , 2nd Round Pick
FS Brodney Pool 3rd Year, 2nd Round Pick

Now Look at the Players in the Window

Robaire Smith
Andra Davis
Leigh Bodden
Sean Jones

Look at the Players approaching the Window

Ethan Kelly
D'Qwell Jackson
Kamerion Wimbley
Eric Wright
Brodney Pool

Past the Window

Orpheus Roye
Willie McGuinest


From this we see that Window players should be playing their best football right now. I'd say those 4 are in the top 6 performers so far this season. We have some other players approaching the Window like Wimbley, Pool and Wright who often make mistakes but who are going to continue to get better with time.

A fork is in Willie and Roye, they will not be back next season. Smith will be out of the Window and Kelly is just not all that talented. That's why I included Draft information for general ability info.

We have to have a strong defensive draft and get at least one prized DL in the Window to compete next year.

There are technique issues that could help this defense but overall this unit will not be strong until a couple years from now just based on personnel IMO.

Nice topic,,, Thanks

Honestly, probably a couple of things.

Dline is lacking the big push guys.. Injuries to Peek and McGinnest early in the year were tough to overcome.. Pool and Jones being young and inexperienced (we are missing russell more than I thought we would) and a rookie starting corner that just now seems to be coming into his own.. (You gotta still think he's gonna get burned a little, they all do)

So it's really not just one thing.. At least I don't think so anyway.

How to fix it is a whole other subject.

Basically we need to acquire better talent for the line first.. that would be my priority.. How to do that,, frankly, it's too early for me to think in those terms..

let me start with you...very nice take on the personnel angle and the peak windows as players.

Just one thing - Kelley is in his 5th year - I know our Roster states 3 year but that is how long he has been with us not in the NFL. And all 5 years has been coached by RAC or Grantham...so what we see is what we get from him.

But you are correct - our vets are in that Hurting and simply can't do stages of their career. TW out and on IR...Roye barely has played this season and last. Willie McG just came back a couple of games ago. And these are our Mentors and veteran leaders for our Defense. Note Roye and WillieMcG missed most of Training camp and preseason as well so they could not share that on field experience to help the Defense Gel as a team.

DBs Baxter is our elder statesman there...fighting to just get back in the game. We lack a core of Peak Window players to lead our defense.

dawgstyle44...I don't have anyone on ignore...not even Corpus...lol

Clay n Bigbaddawg...yes tackling has been a sore spot with us since 99. I did like the way our DBs tackled but Bodden has had his problems this season. EW makes some nice wraps and he's had the least playing experience. Holley is not a good tackler and why he won't crack the starting lineup.

DQ and McG are our best tacklers. Its tough on this level as because of our depth and history of injuries we can't hold practice after practice with completed tackling and basic tackling drills. Oddly a team like the Pats hit from day one...superstar or not and they are the most accomplished tackling team right now.

You know...how do you get to Carnegie Hall...Practice, practice and practice.

Of course RAC had us back to basics in the bye week and tackling drills were first and foremost with the Defense.

Attack...at the time those moves were necessary as we were counting a lot from Roye and TW thats 2/3rds of our intended starting DL. Then with Roye out we still were counting on TW for 2 downs so the best solution was to put Smith out there.

Now as things have turned out and TW is on IR Shaun Smith should become our starting NT over Kelley. But Kelley outside of McG is the most seasoned vet in our defense for the Front 7. I'm surprised Fraser hasn't had more reps...his substitutions are really good quality reps.

I've been disappointed with our LBs as a unit and think that is the key...DL quite frankly needs some continuity...Of course Upgrade and replenish for the aging vets and lower level talent. But nothing would be better than for the Smith boys to get more continuity of the system, Kelley is only here cause of his familiarity of the Defense, his talent level is pretty low.

Louis Leonard...I would like to see him play some but as we know - if he is slowdowned because of comfort level he's going to get eaten up alive.

Actually and I'll get into this more later with the Pass D...but Grantham seems to be bad to uncomfortable with blitz schemes. I know RAC wants us to blitz more and Grantham is fighting him on that. But lets take a blitz call just this past Sunday. We overload on their RT and don't disguise the blitz at all but show it and send it. The Rams ran Left with Jackson who in turn accomplished his biggest run of the Day. I am very very unimpressed with Grantham and his blitzes...they are not well coached, not well disguised and rarely successful. On the other hand on our short yardage situations we have a pretty good blitz package for those.

So I wonder is it Gratham or is that his philosophy is not big on blitzing so its hard to get that out of his coaching.

Reminds me of Fazio...who was not big on Prevent Defense but was demanded to play it against the Steelers in our Playoff game...in turn that was the worst Prevent D I had seen...its hard to be proficient in something you don't believe in. Just a thought!

Well thanks for the participation...please chime in and offer your 2 cents as well.

JMHO

j/c

There has been mention that we're better at 3rd & 1 (and 4th & 1).
Where are we getting that idea from? The Rams game? With their entire OL injured? That's really the only game I've seen it in. Other than the Rams, it's been about on par with our other season, occasionly stop a 3rd and 1 or 2 but most of the time not.

Yes, we're a little better in the Red zone...but most teams are better there because there's less field to cover.

Our DL virtually never gets to the QB...AND we're bad against the run. I'm gonna go on the preface that the two facts are related for now.

Attack, this is not to you. Rather, I'm using a part of your post to make a point.

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Here's a quote from Rac...

"We have some guys who aren't quite disciplined enough to get aligned where they needed to be aligned to put themselves in position to stop the run," said the coach.

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I would like to point out for some that RAC is not talking about lining up pre-snap. Many have taken that to be the case. That the players don't know where to line up. But what he is talking about is the gap responsibility that eotab brought up in his initial post and Attack has been talking about all along.

They are not moving as a unit and sliding their gap responsibilities. They are overpursuing or otherwise taking themselves out of plays, as Attack has mentioned about Robaire, and that is taking away their opportunities to make the play.

Out of position = arm tackles; grabbing as someone else has said.

Every player has a gap or gaps to be responsible for. If a player ignores his responsibility and ad libs he is taking himself out of position to make a play. First, defend your gap responsibility, then go for the ball. Too many times our young players, and even the older ones at times, are going for the ball and the runner goes to the gap they have just vacated.

If anyone would like to see it in action just key on AD throughout the game. Some RB will bust a big one where AD was supposed to have stayed.



Attack...

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The primary mistake I see Grantham and Romeo making here is using Smith at DE. While a 3-4 needs good DE, the NT position is absolutely critical. Smith should have been put at NT from day one of camp and never moved anywhere else.

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If I heard correctly in either the last or next to last of RAC's pressers, someone asked him if he intended to move Smith into the NT spot with the placing of Big Ted on IR. RAC was adament and seemingly pleased with the idea that he was not. He said that Smith has been primarily playing DE and sometimes at NT, but he will continue to be used as he has been.

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So it's a lack of talent and a lack of discipline which points both to players and the defensive coaches..

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Here here.

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Solution: No quick ones. Continuity - coach em up.

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I think that is the key.

We've got so many young players on defense that it will just take time for them to gain the experience and disipline necessary to execute the 3/4.

As someone has already pointed out, defensive coaching may be playing a part in how well they are getting "coached up". But overall I think even with good coaching they will take some time. There's a boatload of them all doing it at once. No less than half the defense is made up of players with less than 2 years experience in the 3/4.

I believe the defense will consistantly improve as the season goes on. Fortunately we have a schedule, after these next three games, that is very friendly on getting the defense on track. It's not like we'll be facing world beaters every game. The schedule is very condusive to the defense having some successes and building their confidence. I think that as the defense works on improving, the offense will still win some of those games.

Hopefully that will go a long way this season while we wait to see what exactly RAC and Phil decide to do about upgrading the defense in the offseason.

After this season we can relax knowing that the era of old, injury prone players like Ted and Roye will be a thing of the past. I doubt either of them will be back. Starting next season we will be fielding younger, more long-term solutions.

We did it this year for the offense by parting ways with Druzzi and Coleman and slotting Tucker as a backup/rotation player. That did away once and for all with geezers starting for us.

Next year the same will happen on defense. Plus the current players who stick will have more experience.

The Dline is not great but the 3-4 Dline is not supposed to be great. We have some depth and should be good with Roye and the Smiths along with Kelly if our LBs were quick and could move through the open gaps to get the RB or QB. Look at Pitt...quick aggressive LBs that move laterally and inside to disrupte the play. Palamalo is also key to their success.

The best defences are very quick and can limit the offense before it has a chance to develop. Moving through the Oline and stopping the run or QB. GB has some good LBs and that has helped them.

I would say that:
Davis is good but too slow...strong and good pass defender but not going to disrupte the run.
Jackson is learning and is smart and quick but not especially fast or big he is a footbal player but may not be big enough.
Williams is very aggressive and makes mistakes...quick but has not been making plays behind the line...not so good on pass defense.
McGinest is our best most experienced LB since he makes the fewest mistakes. He stops the run and is dependable as a leader.
Wimbley has speed and strength and can disrupt the QB but is not so good on everything else...he has 3 sacks out of 7 total for the team.
Peek is good but needs some help with run stopping..a good acquisition but maybe not as effective a pass rusher as we thought.
Thompson has physical ability but is missing experience and needs to listen to McGinest. He could be a run stopper and needs pass defense.
Stewart was also our experience and we need that for both run stopping and pass protection.
McMillian should be used more he is good against the run and as a pass rusher...big strong and needs experience.

We have LBs with more potential than stats...I think that is our big problem in stopping the run no Oline penetration and limited quickness means we must slow the run not disrupt it at the start. We also have new safeties that aren't helping much...we needed Russell.

I believe the talent on the defensive side of the ball needs upgraded substantially. The D has at least 4 positions that need upgraded as soon as possible.

So I disagree with all of the "we have sufficient defensive talent" proponents... We have maybe 2/3 the talent needed on the D side of the ball. And the talent that makes up the 2/3's is average at best.

The 3-4 or any D needs to be strong up front, in the middle and on the corners... We are not solid or outstanding in any of these areas. EW is a young CB who has improved our secondary and should get better and Bodden is average to above at times. Both of our safeties are young and struggling. Jones is getting beat by TE's regularly. Pool is out of position far too much of the time. The FO should have kept Russell around at least another year. We have inadequate DT's who are the weakness of the D. They don't occupy well, penetrate or push the pocket as needed. One of our MLB's is out of position, over pursues, misses tackles in hole and nearly never makes tackles at or behind the LOS. DJ is turning out to be a fine young MLB. One of our young and talented OLB's is pretty one dimensional and our other starting OLB is solid but old and doesn't play every down... The rotation LB's all have strengths but most are one dimensional. The Browns need to immediate quality upgrades @ NT, LB and safety.

The D will improve as the youth grows, learns and plays together for a while. But there is more talent needed at the core in the middle of the D to stop the run and aid in applying pressure on opposing QB's...

Attack...at the time those moves were necessary as we were counting a lot from Roye and TW thats 2/3rds of our intended starting DL. Then with Roye out we still were counting on TW for 2 downs so the best solution was to put Smith out there.

Now saying that and then saying:
But Kelley outside of McG is the most seasoned vet in our defense for the Front 7
Then you put the most seasoned guy(seasoned but not most talented) at the most glaring hole..DE....
Then you put a guy who's natural position and the position U BROUGHT HIM IN FOR...at NT...

I've been disappointed with our LBs as a unit and think that is the key...
It goes back to scheme and guys out of position...and a lack of fundamentals and desire..

Actually and I'll get into this more later with the Pass D...but Grantham seems to be bad to uncomfortable with blitz schemes.
if you read my posts on some other threads that is CORRECT..for some reason Todd is handcuffing the front seven in terms of bltizing while Rac is more aggressive...when U DO THAT thread I'll throw in a surprising quote that tells a lot of whats going on behind the scenes..

Ddubia : If I heard correctly in either the last or next to last of RAC's pressers, someone asked him if he intended to move Smith into the NT spot with the placing of Big Ted on IR. RAC was adament and seemingly pleased with the idea that he was not. He said that Smith has been primarily playing DE and sometimes at NT, but he will continue to be used as he has been.



Ughhhh

Smith was brought in to play NT not DE...the logical solution is to mann him up over center and LOOK for a another DT/DE to replace Roye..
If they leave them there, do they UNDERSTAND HOW HARD it is to get a competent NT from FA or the draft????
It's easier to get a DT(DE's in a 34 are often true DT's) or a run stuffing DE to play Roye's position..

"Then you put the most seasoned guy(seasoned but not most talented) at the most glaring hole..DE....
Then you put a guy who's natural position and the position U BROUGHT HIM IN FOR...at NT"

sorry attack I think you are over thinking the problem and too much Monday morning coaching on this one. Pure and simple Kelley doesn't have the speed to play DE Smith did. That is why Smith went out there. And NT is the position needed to be played with the best technique so on both counts Kelley was our man. And remember that was thought of at the time as a "Give TW a blow" position. Smith was our best athlete out of the big boys. RAC is now keeping him out there cause he is just starting to get the hang of it and doesn't want to confuse him further. But as I said...at the time it was the right choices.

Haven't had much time to read other threads...so I haven't read your comments. But its nice to know we are in agreement.

JMHO

sorry attack I think you are over thinking the problem and too much Monday morning coaching on this one.
How bout All week long coaching?
That move has annoyed me since training camp because while U point out Smith has more speed to play DE, Kelly doesn't have enough strength to play in the hole.

Thats the problem for me...I want the stronger player blowing up the center.
l could deal with covering my slower DE with a LB if it meant the oppostion can't run up the gut against me..and the fact our MLB's are not filling the holes makes me wanting that even more.
I know U don't agree but I want the middle to be strong..
But I do think we've seen the end of Ted ..period..

1st I want to say that the problems we currently have on the defense DOES NOT come down to one individual, or group of individuals.

I will address only the run defense, per the post.

I will also try not to do the finger pointing thing, and I don’t believe firing anybody will solve our defensive problems. The defense as a whole needs to perform better, including the use of personnel by the coaching staff. Trying to fit a round peg in a square hole does not work.

Problem #1 IMHO is poor tackling, the only really, really good tackler on the team is a 1st year CB. This problem I think / hope is on the mend, they at least seemed to tackle better as a group last week against the Rams. At least they showed some signs of life in that department, and I think if they can at least tackle better, they will be better as a group. As I said problem #1 is poor tackling.

#2 Sorry to point a finger a bit here, Wimbley is awful against the run, he takes poor angles and most often that is the area being run to. WM is our best LB when it comes to the run and I wonder why he hasn’t been able to get KW to understand the angles he must take to force the run back inside, towards help. I spent quit a bit of time watching WM and he to my memory has only been beaten on the edge once since coming to the Browns. That’s saying a lot. Watch the game from last week he consistently forces the play back to the inside, even though the play is clearly designed to go to the outside. The one time the RB tried last week to beat WM to the outside, WM shed his blocker and threw the RB down for a loss. Needless to say that was the last attempt at running towards WM.

Perhaps it’s time to start rotating KW, I don’t know. I do know this though he has got to start taking better angles, and if I was to say who I thought was the weakest link in the run defense it would be KW. Not a popular choice but he is the weak link, just watch. Kind of surprised to see you point him out as well, EO. I remember when we were having a similar discussion about KW, you and Vers not agreeing with me, now you see what I see, I think ? Kudos to you for looking like you said you would!

Our ILB are poor at shedding blockers, and aren’t very good at getting thru traffic, they need to play down hill and attack the line on running plays, they don’t.

Our Blitz packages stink, and show a lack of imagination. Hell I know who is blitzing watching on TV. The inside backers will come to the line and act like they are going to blitz, but never do. The blitz schemes need to feature more stunts and they need to come from everywhere, and ours don’t. To say the least they are vanilla in a tootey fruity NFL world.

For now I would go back to basics, play a sound base defense like we did last year, seldom blitz, and I would rotate KW in and out according to the offensive package, and the down and distance, he is to much of a liability against the run. When he does play we need to move him around more, I think it would be helpful if we at least didn’t line him up in the same spot every play. He is of little use other then to rush the passer so lets, move him and make the offense at least account for him when he does move. Much the same as what we did on the offensive side of the ball, lets try to create mismatches for KW to take advantage of.

Hopefully, with RAC becoming more involved with the defense we can begin to see a bit more imagination on the defensive side of the ball, and between TG and RAC I think we should see better individual game plans on our defense. The arrival of Chud should free up RAC to be a more active participant in the defensive game plan.

I don’t share the opinion that the reason we are so horrid against the run is the line. The line problem is more about the pass then the run. Few plays are run up inside, and generally when they are its, poor ILB play that leads to ground gains in this area. Again play recognition, and attacking the line ( playing down hill) are not strong points of our ILB. If we could shore up KW’s side of the line we would be a decent defense against the run, IMHO. Will never be a great defense against the run with our current personnel though, we just have too many liabilities, and few actual answers.

My own concerns do not gravitate towards the run defense, because we are so sound on the offensive side of the ball, few if any teams are actually going to be able to beat us running the ball. They can limit the amount of time our offense has to operate with the ball by running time off the clock, but they aren’t likely to beat us by running given the efficiency of the offense. Hopefully that will continue to be the case because this Defense is unlikely to get better without better players.

JMHO

A general question for some of the X's-and-O's types here ... my impression of the 3-4 D is that it requires more "freaks" on the front 7 in order to be effective ... a massive, active, strong, quick NT ... oversized DE's with above average speed ... speedy ILB's that are strong enough to fight off OL blocks and make most of the tackles at the point of attack ... and big rangy OLB's that can both rush the passer and cover TE's & RB's on pass plays.

Is my impression correct? Do you need more "special athletes" to populate a 3-4 than a 4-3?

And if so, why don't we scrap it because it appears - at least to me - that we don't have the athletes to play it well?

I think Freeney is a damn good DE in a 4-3 package. It bugs me that players who are pretty near complete football players at their position are switched to a foreign position for the sake of a scheme. Take a DT and make him a DE, take a DE and make him an OLB ... everybody becomes a project.

Another thing ... you take a guy who has played football since they were 11 or 12 years old and was taught to get after the ball and make tackles, and then he gets to the pros and you tell him you want him to "occupy gaps" ... maintain space ... its counter-intuitive to guys that want to make plays. I remember it bugged the hell out of Michael Dean Perry. People started saying he was selfish, but I think he was saying "this isn't fun anymore".

Anyway, JMO ... I wish we'd go back to a 4-3.

"And if so, why don't we scrap it because it appears - at least to me - that we don't have the athletes to play it well?"

I know not your quote D in D...copy n paste from the wrong post as well as the reply.

Dave...cause 4 of the NFL Champions of a very competitive League since 2001 have ran the 3-4 Defense.

And in most cases including ours...we can easily play a 4-3 if it warrants it...which we have. Against NE Pats we almost played 4 DL exclusively.

JMHO

I agree it can be an effective - maybe even dominating - defense, but only if you have the athletes to execute it, which, IMO, we don't.

I would be interested whether you think my premise - that you need more special athletes to populate a 3-4 D - is an accurate statement ... not to be argumentative, but because I'd like to know if its true, or just an incorrect impression on my part.

"that you need more special athletes to populate a 3-4 D"

No not really...you have to dedicate and get the right ones in...but we have spent a lot of investments into the Offense. Which honestly takes more time to put together.

Defense...the key is NT thats the special guy that is hard to find. 315-340 guy with speed and athleticism and tough as nails and a hard worker. Just a rare commodity!!

The DEs are undersized DTs with some speed. There are so many of them in college ball....Too slow to play 4-3 DE and once thought of too small to play DT...now with the one Gappers Tampa Cover two - they utilize a smaller faster DT so there are competition for them but many are available.

LBs...Small College DEs...too small to play DE in the NFL - There are many of them...a few will be sought after for 4-3 DEs as a specialty pass rusher but not many as an every down DE. NE used 4 college DE's as their LBs. But they had RAC coaching them up.

JMHO