DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Will Baker Continue to Grow ?

Last year our schedule wasn't that difficult.

This year our schedule is way tougher.

Maybe Baker is just having some growing pains playing against harder opponents. And needs time to improve.

Just a random thought.

Would love to see him have a 4 td breakout game against the Bolts. He's due for a great game.

QBs I’d take over Baker as of 10/5/21:

Patrick Mahomes

Justin Herbert
Kyler Murray
Aaron Rodgers
Russell Wilson
Dak Prescott

Josh Allen
Tom Brady

Joe Burrow
Lamar Jackson
Matt Stafford

Too close to call:
Derek Carr
Ryan Tannehill
Sam Darnold
Jalen Hurts

everyone else... no thank you

You, sir, are a homer.

I agree with U on one point, Bake has not led a comeback against a decent D, he has failed every time in that category, bringing up the come back against the bUngles D last year was no great accomplishment … things u need to take into account that your too impatient to consider …

there’s a limited sample size … how many chances has he had in total? … not that many … and I could care less about Bake not leading us back in his first two years against a good D … we had beyond major issues those first two years starting with BRUTAL OL’S and one WR in VG … we STUNK on so many levels … relying on a rookie QB and a 2nd year QB in his third system to lead u back against any D much less a good one is simply having UNREALISTIC EXPECTATIONS …

He’s also a pup as far as being in the same system … this is the first time he’s not in a new system including a mid season change in year 1 …. from his draft class Sam has been in a by far a worse situation … Allen and Lamar have been in the same system for 4 & 3 years respectively …. They should be further along than Bake in crunch time due to familiarity … That has to be taken into account …. It took Lamar two trips into the playoffs in the same system (I don’t count year 1 when he ran Flacco’s O) to get a W, Bake did it in his first trip …

In this years KC game i have zero problem with the pick, he got hit but a clutch QB makes the throw on the play before, granted it was a tough throw rolling to his left but he had a wide open Njoku I believe it was down the sideline and Bake under threw it by 10 yards … that one’s on him …

I’m also not afraid YET that Bake is a choke … look at LeBruan in his first two championship runs he was a choke carried by Wade and crap I can’t remember the other dudes name then LaBraun became the man … some need time to grow into that roll .. and I’m not saying Bake’s a choke the sample size is simply to small … we’ll find out over the course of the next two seasons ….

Saying bake is an average QB is literally a JOKE and just shows your impatience at this point …

Breaking Bake down and before i begin I am THRILLED to have him as our QB especially on this team …. He has the best roster in the NFL around him … BAR NONE! We don’t need him to be Joe Montana but we will need him to bring us back in a playoff game against a good D something neither Lamar or Josh have done even though U heap praise on Lamar as this great come from behind QB … … completing a 4th and 20 against that D and having the best FG kicker in the history of the game break the record with a 64 yarder isn’t exactly a glowing accomplishment …

- he is incredibly accurate and can make any throw …. On the other hand he has very little to no touch … positives way outweigh the negatives … he can make throws most QB’s can’t …. the touch is what will keep him from being great IMO but he is all ready above average ….

- he is a leader, his teammates love him and that is HUGE ….

- he has the best run game in the NFL with a decent pass blocking OL … that opens a lot up for any QB

- he is very good when rolling right and very bad when rolling left (if he was rolling right I’d bet my last dollar he makes that throw in the KC game)

- he is a competitor which is a good thing … i wish he would avoid the hits when running as he's pretty smart and for a yard or two that’s INCREDIBLY STUPID!

- he’s mobile but not fast, he moves around in the pocket just fine …

- he’s short and thats obviously a negative …

- he’s in year 4 and for the first time he’s in the same system he was the year before … that’s HUGE for development …

He has his faults and shortcomings just like all but a select few do and he needs to continue to grow just like all 4th year QB’s … he has the arm talent and the surrounding cast to do it with ….

BOTTOME LINE: He has the ability right now to LEAD THIS TEAM TO A SB VICTORY and that’s all that matters ….

Baker will be fine. Some of the fans who rag on him were big Derek Anderson fans. Hahaha.

Seriously, I can’t imagine that it’s not an injury thing. My biggest complaint about him is that he doesn’t protect himself. That’s just being stupid. He needs to get over the compulsion to be the tough guy all the time.

Having a chance to go back in time to some reactions to the week after the opening day loss, of 2020, maybe it was a different loss, maybe it was a different game of 2020, there were some who wanted to switch qbs after a bad game. Well later games had better play by the QB.

But! He wasn't injured, and he wasn't playing behind an injured left tackle.

Mayfield was sacked 5 times by the Bears! What are the Browns doing to provide pass protection???

Playing him behind three banged up starting linemen. I think he got the yips from being sacked so many times this year.

If your quarterback gets the yips from being sacked too many times in a few games then you need a new quarterback.

I think to this point in his career Baker Mayfield has shown to be a good QB. Not an elite QB, but a good one. When he has time to throw and he is on his game, he can be as good as anyone. He is streaky though, he will have stretches of phenomenal play followed by stretches of abysmal play.

The key thing to remember is that he is currently playing in the most talented, highest-paid offense in the NFL, complete with a head coach calling the plays that just won Coach of the Year. Can we win an SB this year with Baker? I think we definitely can, but moving forward the answer is not so clear.

Baker is the worst QB in the NFL when under pressure. He gets jittery and nervous when a slight breeze blows by him in the pocket. If we are going to pay him 40M per year we probably are not going to be able to afford the #1 Offensive line in the league. Who knows how long we can keep the 2-headed monster we currently have at running back either. Baker has not shown himself to be NEAR good enough to win an SB while being the focal point of an offense.

The fantastic thing is that the Browns organization is no longer a dumpster fire, but the model the rest of the league is trying to catch up with. Unlike the past couple of decades, we actually have the capital to move on from a middle-of-the-road QB if and when we deem it necessary. I'll trust our Front Office to make the right choice when a choice needs to be made, but for now, Go Browns!

JC...

Baker has a top 3 OL core, top 3 RB core, top 3 WR core, and probably a top 5 TE core...He is in his second year of a system, that he has familiarity with from the year prior....Oh yeah, and his HC won coach of the year last year. However he (Baker) has struggled mightily.

This offense was supposed to be a juggernaut and put points up through the air...only the ground game is really putting up our points...We have too many potent pieces for this air game to be struggling so badly.

I cannot tell you why Baker is playing so off...Could be anything at this juncture. From just eyes alone...He doesn't look comfortable, and it seems his passes are coming out off (on replays last week, a ton of his passes were awful ducks...which I can't recall him ever throwing so much awful projected passes in one game) I am no QB guru, but coaches really need to get him on track. I want Baker to reclaim himself, and lord knows...I don't want to have to go searching for a QB in the draft anytime soon.

I am in hopes, that coach and Baker get this figured out....Because there is no excuse for this passing game to be so bleak. Not with all that talent, that is set before Baker.

Very good. Elite no. Real strategist. Serviceable.
(Good to have ya back.)

I think there is no way the Browns can win a Super Bowl this year with Baker Mayfield as the Qb, but that is a very unpopular opinioin, and I hope I'm wrong, hope it with my heart. so shhhh.

And it has nothing to do with bad play this week, everything to do with never seeing the Browns current offense do what Carr did as the Raiders forced OT with that FG after two snaps! in week 1 MNF. And other teams that can do similar things to that.

Baker started to look poor after the shoulder injury.

I hope it is a self healing injury and not something that requires surgery. I suspect he will look better and back to normal when he gets back to normal.

j/c

Baker has a lot of talent around him, not the least of which is the OL and RB which I wouldn't trade with anyone other team --- but I think we need to dial back some of the talk about "top WR's" and "top TE" support. There are a lot of teams with a set of WR's I'd happily trade for. One of them is in our division.

PFF has CLE WR ranked way down at 14th ... you may not agree with that. But Top 3?? No way. And while I like all 3 of the TE's - none of them is a legit TE stud. Again - using PFF as a guide - they have our best TE ranked 17th best in the NFL.

https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-pff-tight-end-rankings-2021-nfl-season

https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-ranking-all-nfl-receiving-corps-ahead-of-the-2021-season

That's just nuts. I see 3 on your list that I would contemplate only if I had to.

Then, you sir, are a homer.

SO. You sir are a hater.

How so? I said Baker is the 12th best QB in the league (13th if you include DeShaun Watson). I think that’s pretty generous. Also, I compliment Baker profusely when he does well.

What you think and what I think don't jive, Mr. Hater. Baker is top 5 in my book, and definitely no less than top ten. Patrick Mahomes, Tom Brady, Aaron Rodgers, Baker, Lamar Jackson, Kyler Murray, Matt Stafford, Josh Allen, Dak Prescott, Russell Wilson, Justin Herbert, Joe Burrow is the order I grade your top list in, I wouldn't even bother with the last 4, they are all above average scrubs.

This is straight nuts.

This is from before the season:

Mike Sando did his QB tiers on The Athletic.

Quote:
The all-star voting panel included seven general managers, five head coaches, 11 coordinators, 15 executives, seven quarterbacks coaches and five others working in front offices or in other coaching capacities.


Because it is a subscription site I won't post the whole thing but I'll post the order and Baker's write up.

Tier 1 - "A Tier 1 quarterback can carry his team each week. The team wins because of him. He expertly handles pure passing situations. He has no real holes in his game."

1. Aaron Rodgers
2. Patrick Mahomes
3. Tom Brady
4. Russell Wilson
5. DeShaun Watson

Tier 2 - "A Tier 2 quarterback can carry his team sometimes but not as consistently. He can handle pure passing situations in doses and/or possesses other dimensions that are special enough to elevate him above Tier 3. He has a hole or two in his game."

6. Josh Allen
7. Lamar Jackson
8. Matthew Stafford
9. Dak Prescott
10. Justin Herbert
11. Matt Ryan
12. Kyler Murray
13. Ryan Tannehill
14. Joe Burrow

Tier 3 - "A Tier 3 quarterback is a legitimate starter but needs a heavier running game and/or defensive component to win. A lower-volume dropback passing offense suits him best."

15. Derek Carr
16. Ben Roethlisberger
17. Baker Mayfield
18. Kirk Cousins
19. Jared Goff
20. Carson Wentz
21. Jimmy Garoppolo
22. Daniel Jones
23. Ryan Fitzpatrick

Tier 4 - "A Tier 4 quarterback could be an unproven player with some upside or a veteran who is ultimately best suited as a backup."

24. Sam Darnold
25. Jameis Winston
26. Teddy Bridgewater
27. Cam Newton
28. Andy Dalton
29. Tua Tagovailoa
30. Jalen Hurts
31. Drew Lock
32. Tyrod Taylor
33. Taysom Hill
34. Joe Flacco

About Baker:

Quote:
Tier 2 votes: 17 | Tier 3 votes: 33 | 2020 Tier: 3

Voters like Mayfield. Most also see the supporting cast and offensive coaching helping him more than the other way around. Dividing credit along those lines makes it tougher for some to place Mayfield in Tier 2.

“Baker is probably in the 2 category, but you don’t really know with him,” an evaluator said. “You know they got a new head coach and they called it right, but they also didn’t do as much as they could have done with a legit QB.”

This evaluator compared Mayfield to prime Cincinnati Andy Dalton, but when Dalton was at his best, in 2015, his Bengals ranked fifth on defense and special teams. Mayfield’s Browns were 24th last season and still went 11-5. A different evaluator put it another way, calling Mayfield more point guard than shooting guard, but a GM called Cleveland the greatest threat to Kansas City in the AFC, thanks in part to Mayfield.

“He does benefit from a great offensive line, he has a great running game, but I do think he makes that thing go,” this GM said. “When Odell (Beckham) got hurt and they started to take off, I think that was because Baker could be more of himself. If you truly are a product of the talent that is out there, and are truly a 3, when you lose an all-pro receiver, your play should tail off. But his play improved when they relied on him to use other weapons.”

The schedule was a factor. Cleveland played a disproportionate number of games against top defenses early in the season, before Beckham was injured.

“Mayfield can throw an 18-yard deep curl route like it’s a hitch — it’s that easy for him,” a former offensive coordinator said. “The problem just comes in with the vision sometimes. He’s so accurate, and I think he’s settled down. They didn’t give him the contract yet, so they got the leash tight and should get the best of him — he wants the contract and wants to be thought of in that way. He’s figured it out. It will be about winning, all about ball.”

Mayfield’s 2020 numbers closely resembled 2019 numbers for Cousins: within two completions and 50 yards, with the same number of touchdown passes. Mayfield had two additional interceptions, two fewer sacks, two additional completions longer than 15 yards and a similar EPA per attempt. A common denominator: Browns coach Kevin Stefanski called pays for both.

“I think Baker is more talented than the guys Stefanski had in Minnesota, and then he has the leadership, he is one of the guys and he can extend plays better,” a defensive coordinator said.

Not that “better than Cousins” is necessarily the goal.

“I don’t think they see him as being special in any category,” a former head coach said. “He is good enough because of what they do. Baker has more grit than Cousins, and he is going to play better in critical situations. He’s accurate, but not exceptional.”

I was talking cores, not the individuals per say. (Hooper, Njoku, Bryant) vs say whom they have ranked at #4 Kyle Pitts...So Falcons core (Kyle Pitts, Haden Hurst, Keith Smith) vs ours...Pff was grading only the individual TEs...And trust me, there's no way I would ever say Hoop is a top 5 TE (I actually wasn't thrilled of his signing, as he was only merely good-very good...while getting an elite contract) and top 5 TE core, may be a little off for me...But we for sure have a top 10 core on hand.

WR cores I did totally forget about Tampa, and their depth numbers there, and the Cowboys as well...ditto with Cincy, heck Auden Tate barely sees the field for them. However PFF rankings on there are a little suspect, as they are including TEs in their WR groupings. Which is throwing some things off. They also have the dolphins WR core above us...which I'd take our core over there's all day. And heck the Titans at #5 (Titans have absolutely no one behind Julio and AJ...and it showed last week, they are basically running with practice squad prototypes out there) But from top to bottom our core has to be top 10 all day...(probably right that they may not be a top 5 core...but close)

Regardless, you put our top 3 OL core, top 3 RB core (which he may have the best core in the league), Top 10 TE core, Top 10 WR core into say Lamar Jacksons lap....that's an easy super bowl projection there ( I mean obviously defense matters...I'm just talking terms on our offensive woes we have-aerial)

I really like Baker.... no way he's top 5 right now in the league..... I think he's a solid QB and has the moxy this team needed to get going in the right direction.... not sure he's the long term answer, but I'm overall happy with his play this year...

Minn was a rough game... hoping he plays better this weekend.

Is it possible that this might actually be the problem?

Our run game is dialed in because we consistently hand the rock off to 1 of 2 players, Chubb or Hunt. We don't cycle through 7 or 8 different guys who can run the ball. There is a consistency in that part of the offense.

In the receiving game when we talk about a particular WR or TEs production, we often view it through the lense of maybe not enough balls to go around.

But what if we view the same issue from the position of the QB? Maybe there are too many people to get the ball to?

Most QBs find rhythm with there #1 and #2 WR, and hope they can trust #3 WR to be where he needs him in a pinch. They have rhythm with usually just the #1 TE. Normally we don't expect the QB to have the same relationship with the #4,5 and 6 WRs etc.

But because we have such ridiculous depth on our roster, we expect Baker to have the same relationship with the #1 through 6 WR and #1 through 3 TE. That's 9 pass catchers.

Baker certainly has other areas to work on but I wonder if expecting him to have such well developed 'relationships' with so many different pass catchers isn't stretching him a bit thin.

No. He’s either the best or the worst. Try again!

Remember when Peyton Manning had Marvin Harrison, Reggie Wayne, and Edgerrin James and he was terrible because they were all too good?

It's the expression of nervous/anxious energy along with the fact we KNOW he can be better, yet here we are looking at the prospect of this one thing unraveling what should be an epic season.


It's keeping it interesting and fun, lol

I just hope Baker wakes up Sunday morning feeling “dangerous”.

LOL....I don't know about that one way or the other, but when you get right down to the matter, every incomplete pass thrown is a potential TD pass missed...lol

I think you may be on to something here it's a lot for one person, and as you mentioned perhaps it's simply to much???

One big issue I see with Sando's article is that he has Lamar in tier 2 but his description of tier 3 is exactly what Lamar is.

Nearly the very same list of morons pushing their agenda.

They would rather see the Browns loss then win I swear.

JAYBIRD,

Piggybacking on what you said, maybe in the same way that it took Sashi>Dorsey>Berry to get this sorry organization turned around, it's gonna take more than just Baker to get us all the way to SB contention. No doubt in my mind he was the right guy at the right time for us, but 5 years later? Maybe not so much.

Baker can put all the doubt to rest, but it is up to him...his fans cannot do it for him.

j/c:

It's not like Baker can't be good. He's shown that he can. The ability is there he just has to work through the problems he's having now. He has the ability and coaching to do it.

Ouch. I'm going to go throw up now.

Can we have anything nice?

He’s just a hater. How dare he question the best QB in the league?