DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Maybe Romeo ain't so bad afterall...

What choice did RAC have?
We sucked on O and would RAC still have a job if he told Phil NO to Chud after RAC bombed out with Mo?
I doubt it. It's Phil righting this ship.

But that's okay. You can "pretend" that RAC still has some say in the matter if it makes you feel better.

See, that's the thing, I don't NEED to "read the defensive thread" to "see what you've figured out". Just because I wasn't "on the board" doesn't mean I haven't watched the games.


Yes U do because even though I WATCH THE GAMES..it doesn't tell me when the wrong schemes are being called, it doesn't tell me the internal things that contribute to the POOR play..
Rac has been more vocal about some of the things going on and several players have reveiled certain tidbits about whats going on..

Those are things your eyes CANNOT figure out..and since it seems very few truely UNDERSTAND that Rac allows the DC to the scheme , and he said he was going to have more imput it doesn't all fall on him.

Now I 'm not about to tread back through and repaste a bunch of quotes again so if you want to disregard it fine..I just know I'm glad I heard this because it makes a lot of pieces come together besides just KNOWING there's a lack of talent..

The DC is running things and thats where a lot of the breakdown is coming.
If a player says they were being schemed out of plays who does that fall on?
Not Rac..

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I just can't see how a head coach isn't allowed to pick his own CO.

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It happens, and it's happened quite a few times. I see your point, I just see that as each day goes by it seems to show how tight a grip Savage has on this team, and I don't see him as the type of guy who will deal with mediocrity or below at this point, he wants to see results. Plus when you rebuild like we had to, chances are the HC won't be around to reap the benefits of when we are true yearly competitors.

Someone would be nuts to think that RAC didn't have a say in whos hired on his staff and who isn't.. Either they are nuts or it just doesn't fit that persons agenda..

Either way, always consider the source......Always.

Oh i understand that...I just like to bicker with Pit.

Nuts? Thats extreme, but I don't see why it's so hard for others to accept that some of us might think that since Crennel made a terrible choice in Carthon that Savage had more say into who was going to be the next OC, it's not a far fetched stretch, it's just an interpretation, at least mine.

Funny isn't it? RAC was the "defensive guru" DC and our O looks MUCH better after Chud was brought in by Phil,yet with "RAC's guy" and RAC (the DC guru) our D sucks canal water.


Not hard to see..is Grantham Rac's guy as U imply? Or was abother DC (Mangini) wanted here but given a new deal to keep him in the Jets fold????
Now TG was brought in because of his familarity of the 34...

Fletch, I actually can debate with you because you can see things for what they are, thankfully. You aren't passing things off as facts.

Unfortunately, I refuse to believe that the GM is picking the HC's COACHING STAFF.

Why do you let Them draw you into this pissing contest ! .. Let it go and move on !

Thanks Clemdawg...just add a "ditto" to your Post.

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Nuts? Thats extreme, but I don't see why it's so hard for others to accept that some of us might think that since Crennel made a terrible choice in Carthon that Savage had more say into who was going to be the next OC, it's not a far fetched stretch, it's just an interpretation, at least mine.

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I completely disagree with you.. The reason is simple.. if you pay a man $500k a year to do a job and you won't let him pick his people because you don't trust him,,, then you fire him,,, on the spot,, he's gone..

That RAC is still here indicates clearly (to those that don't have an agenda of RAC hatrid that is) that Savage still trusts him,... meaning that he decides, with input from Savage no doubt, who is on his staff and who isn't...

To me, anything other than that scenario is ridiculous and only spoken by someone that wants RAC fired for reasons that are beyond reasonable... But that's JMO!

Unfortunately, I refuse to believe that the GM is picking the HC's COACHING STAFF.

Why is that so hard to believe? After watching Mo run the offense I find it perfectly reasonable to think that Phil brought Chud back with very little input from Romeo. It's not like Romeo had the record to back up any protest he might have made.

We're 5-3 and if you close your eyes when the Defense is on the field you can almost see the playoffs. We'll see how good this team really is this weekend. But after watching the Ravens get demolished last night I would not bet against the Steelers. Will that be a mini-referendum on RAC's coaching abilities? I don't see why not. We'll see on Sunday night.

You can disagree with me, but when it's happened before it doesn't bold well for your arguement. An example of a HC who had zero control on who his coaching staff was going to be and who the players were going to be, and thats Barry Switzer, and he was paid good money to basically babysit, so it's happened before, there are others, especially when it comes to younger HC's, but Switzer sticks out.

Now I'm not saying it happens regularly, but at seasons end last year Crennel was on the bubble on if he kept his job, and that was widely reported. I just want this team to win and right now Crennel is getting W's and thats great I hope he keeps it up. I have no agenda, I just want the best for our Browns.

I agree. RAC had zero say-so....real say-so in who is in charge of the O or what they run.

Heck...Romeo didn't really have any say so after game 1 on who was going to be QB....Chuck was his pick.

DA didn't just emerge out of thin air. He had to show something in camp.

My money says everyone but RAC wanted DA to start, and thus the fast exit of Chuck.

Shoot.....it wouldn't surprise me to find out Lerner or savage called RAC on the sideline of the Steeler game and told him to pull Chuck or be escorted from the field by stadium security........yes...that is a joke...t Savage knows Romeo is a good guy and has good qualities, but the guy has to be saved from himself.

Romeo is good at carrying out and following a plan. I don't think he is good at making a plan and is too loyal to his people. Friggen Mo Carthon would have still been coordinator here had RAC had his way.

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Unfortunately, I refuse to believe that the GM is picking the HC's COACHING STAFF.

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big....Is Savage "picking" Crennel's coaching staff?

Or, is Savage involved in helping Crennel shape the offensive coaching staff?

Make no mistake about it, Savage is running this franchise and his influence can be seen everywhere we look.

Does Savage have such an ego that he would go to Crennel and say, this is the guy I'm hiring?

I seriously doubt it.

I believe Savage includes Crennel on every move being made within the franchise when it comes to players and coaches. These two individuals are working together to shape this franchise

We must remember that Savage's strong suit is judging talent...players and coaches as well as front office types.

I believe both Crennel and Savage have one common goal...to improve this franchise, and both have checked their egos and are working hard to bring in the best talent available.

So far, I would say that Savage and Crennel put together a pretty good offensive coaching staff...WOOF...mac

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An example of a HC who had zero control on who his coaching staff was going to be and who the players were going to be, and thats Barry Switzer, and he was paid good money to basically babysit, so it's happened before, there are others, especially when it comes to younger HC's, but Switzer sticks out.

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When were the Browns sold to Jerry Jones,,,, I didn't hear the news! and when was Barry Switzer hired to be the Coach of the Browns,, again, I didn't hear the news... I must be completely out of the loop here..

I am NOT talking about the Cowboys,, I'm looking at the HERE AND NOW... Lerner is the owner, Savage is the GM and RAC is the HC...

Don't sit there and use that as a reason to justify that it's possible... I didn't need you to tell me it's possible,, I knew that..

But look at the GENIUS that is Jerry Jones.. He runs a coach out of town on a rail that took over a team he just bought and went 1-15, and turned them in to a 3 time superbowl winner (that would be Jimmy Johnson)... If as you say, Swizter was a baby sitter, it wasn't because of a lack of trust on Jones part, it was because of an oversized EGO on Jones part..

I don't see either of those being the case here with the Browns...

I'm amazed you think that just because it happened somewhere else that it's happening here... and you say it without any regard given to the personalities involved.... Sorry man,, but that argument gets no cred from me... NONE

Whats ironic is that we are the ones being called closed minded but yet we have given Crennel his kudos, when due. Reality is that were looking at this issue more as a "whole" then alot of others are, but we are dubbed as having agendas, when not one of us want to see Crennel fail, we just see the big picture.

One thing is for certain if Crennel loses his job I won't gloat about it, because when/if this happens that means were losing and none of us want that.

You're money would be lost. RAC made the decision to pull Frye. Your conspiracy theory, as usual, is dead wrong.

RAC has zero say so? Based on what? Savage stated SPECIFICALLY that RAC was involved in the changes this off-season. What actual proof do you have to the contrary?

I also said that this wasn't a black and white issue there is some grey area involved and some of it isn't made publicly, why you ignored that part is beyond me, I am just saying it can happen an has happened before (which you agree with) and my reasoning is valid since of the mishap that is called Mo Carthon.

I guess we can agree to disagree.

Heck...Romeo didn't really have any say so after game 1 on who was going to be QB....Chuck was his pick.
DA didn't just emerge out of thin air. He had to show something in camp.
My money says everyone but RAC wanted DA to start, and thus the fast exit of Chuck.

I see the winds are swirling around your viewpoint again huh?

How do U just ignore facts..oh never mind..U and your fellow wind surfers just do

How bout we travel BACK to last season WHEN RAC..yes RAC said there would be a QB comp this spring?
How bout we fast forward again to this spring when he SAID it again...
WHO MADE THAT CALL regardless of the coaching staff(lets get real and say Chud) wanted?
What happened ?
DA did NOTHING to upseat Frye..NOT ONE THING...and thats why Rac said Frye had a leg up..but having a leg up isn't he was head and shoulders better..it was marginal...

Rac yanked Frye from the Pukesburgh game..Phil already had a deal in place with Seattle..so he took it from there..
They DIDN'T want Quinn in yet so it was a calculated risk they took since Anderson didn't show them much of anything in camp..
Oh and Fletch U can clamour U guys don't have agendas but you're dead wrong as Peens post clearly shows..

And now he all of a sudden Anderson is playing great and the talk of the league and didn't show anything in camp??

Right.


You guys can think what you want.

Did you watch the pre-season games? Did you read the reports out of Berea? DA didn't look good. Period. You denying it deosn't mean he didn't, Peen.

Just as everyone said, this offense would get better as the season progressed because the OL would get better. But "you guys" can think what you want.

The line wasn't a problem in pre-season nor game one.

The problem was one qb had happy feet and the other wasn't playing free of fear.

Remove the happy feet and the fear and you end up with what we have.


Sorry man...RAC didn't have anything to do with that.....he is the one who put up with it and created it.

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I guess we can agree to disagree.

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Best Idea I've heard all day except for the one where Peen says he owes me a beer...:)

Again, you have proof of this opinion, right? The OL was a problem, as they hadn't come together yet. To suggest that 3 new starters and 1 in a new position didn't take time to come together and play up to their abilities is to speak in complete and total lack of using your football knowledge.

Posted on Sun, Jan. 28, 2007

McManamon on the Browns

Skilled coaches lost in staffing shakeups

Rosburg, Davidson walk; Atkins, Scherer take on new roles; GM Savage denies orchestrating changes

By Patrick McManamon

The Browns' offseason of change continues with four coaches not retained, two more departed, two retained in different spots and three hired.

Eventually the numbers will even out, but the people who left Cleveland voluntarily -- Jerry Rosburg and Jeff Davidson -- would not seem to be the guys Romeo Crennel wanted to lose.

In addition, two of the coaches who were let go quickly found jobs. Terry Robiskie was named receivers coach with the Miami Dolphins, and John Lott strength coach with the Arizona Cardinals.

The situation with Rosburg and Davidson is interesting.

Both are highly regarded in the league, and both did well in Cleveland.

Rosburg, especially, is given high marks for the way he handles special teams. In his tenure, the Browns' special teams were a bright spot.

But his contract expired after last season, and the Atlanta Falcons lured him south with a three-year deal.

Davidson was promoted to assistant head coach in the offseason, then named offensive coordinator in October when Maurice Carthon ``resigned.''

In a rare interview in November -- assistant coaches must be given permission to speak to the media -- Davidson spoke with jubilation at coaching with the Browns.

``I grew up in a small town near Akron called Doylestown,'' he said. ``I grew up listening to the radio at my house or watching the Browns on TV at a friend's house. I was a Browns fan growing up. This is a dream come true to be here as a coach, regardless of what my realm is as a coach.''

The dream ended in a hurry.

And it ended with Davidson being given 10 games to call plays using someone else's offense. To expect Davidson to change the system in those 10 games was just not realistic.

That being said, Davidson certainly seems to have been judged on those 10 games.

His interview seemed perfunctory, and sources said he almost knew he had no chance to keep the job.

Apparently, Davidson did not hold back on his evaluations of players in his interview, either.

He told General Manager Phil Savage -- who led the search and hiring -- that there were large needs on offense, and some of his criticisms went right to players signed the past two years.

The Browns would have liked him to stay as line coach, but apparently Davidson felt staying was not a viable option. Nor did he really believe he was wanted.

Davidson and Rosburg could not be reached for comment, and Savage said through the team's media relations department that he did not want to comment on departing coaches.

It's not known whether Davidson's blunt personnel assessments hurt his chances, but Davidson was respected by many players -- Trent Dilfer always spoke highly of him -- and the Carolina Panthers thought enough of him to make him their offensive coordinator.

Few in the league quibble with the fact that new offensive coordinator Rob Chudzinski is a bright young coach. They wonder about his experience, but agree he's knowledgeable.

Coaching staffs change; it's a fact of life in the NFL. And the Browns' staff is changing.

That being said, the staff would look a lot stronger with Davidson and Rosburg on it than it does without them.

More change

The team announced Saturday that Dave Atkins had been moved from running backs coach to special offensive assistant, Rip Scherer had been promoted to assistant head coach/quarterback coach and Anthony Lynn had been hired from the Dallas Cowboys to coach running backs.

Soon the team will announce that former Houston Texans assistant Steve Marshall will be the line coach. Marshall was not in coaching last year after being fired by Houston in 2005, a year when the Texans gave up 68 sacks.

He was recently hired to work at Alabama, but prefers the NFL.

Atkins' shift hardly seems like a promotion, and according to one league source, it came after some back-and-forth with Crennel and Savage.

Crennel wanted Atkins to stay, and Savage wanted a change, a league source close to some of the Browns' coaches said. The move seems like a compromise.

Savage, who has taken a much more active role in the coaching staff's makeup, made a veiled reference to Atkins in his postseason news conference, when he said that Reuben Droughns' disappointing season was partly affected by training camp, when he didn't get enough ``at-bats.''

Savage seemed to understand the reasons, but still said it might have affected Droughns. How serious was the discussion about Atkins?

Serious enough that some coaches on the staff wondered if it would cost Crennel his job, according to the source.

Meanwhile, Alfredo Roberts takes the job of bringing along Kellen Winslow.

Winslow is a talented and dedicated player, but his energies sometimes need to be channeled. Roberts played tight end at the University of Miami and was a teammate of Chudzinski's.

On the changes

Savage said that talk he is calling the shots on coaching changes is ``almost comical in a way.''

``I've never had a coach come to me and say `This is what we are going to do' or `This is the play we are going to run.' The coaches don't report to Phil Savage, I promise you that,'' he said. ``Romeo is responsible for the coaching staff. Do I have some input or suggestions? Absolutely. Does he have input or suggestions to make when it comes to personnel, free agents or the draft? Absolutely.

``It's his coaching staff just like it's my scouting staff.

``The other factor to weigh in on all of this is, as GM, I can stand back a little bit from being in the eye of the storm. Sometimes the coaches are so involved in what they are doing on a day-to-day basis, a general manager can bring a little more of a perspective to it than someone who is involved in the fight on a day-to-day basis.

``Romeo is in charge of his coaching staff.''

As for changes that have been made, specifically the four coaches not retained, Savage said: ``I would say that when we talked about things and issues that we felt we were having, in the end, the best thing to do was make the moves we made.''

Brownies . . .

• One of the decisions Savage must make in the offseason is whether to bring in a veteran quarterback. He did not sound committed to the idea, saying, ``When you look at what quarterbacks are available on the surface right now via free agency, you probably wouldn't be overly impressed with that list.'' The best option might be to wait to see if Jake Plummer is released by Denver.

• His thoughts on the position? ``I think Derek (Anderson) certainly played himself into discussion with what he's shown over the last three or four weeks of the season. Charlie has played more, and Derek will have to beat him out. Is it a competition? Sure it is.''

• Savage said that half the interior offensive-line starters were taken on Day 2 of the draft or via free agency. ``History shows that you can find the center and guard spots on Day 2 of the draft,'' he said.

• An exception: Pittsburgh. Jeff Hartings, Alan Faneca and Kendall Simmons all were first-round picks. And the Steelers always run the ball well.

• New Steelers coach Mike Tomlin was an intern under Chris Palmer in Cleveland in 1999. Tomlin, a ``cover-two'' disciple, quickly put to rest thoughts that he would change the Steelers' defensive system by retaining defensive coordinator Dick LeBeau.


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Patrick McManamon can be reached at pmcmanamon@thebeaconjournal.com


web page


From this thread earlier this year...

https://www.dawgtalkers.net/showflat.php?...=true#Post97916

This is a message board B......and opinions need no proof.


The fact remains Romeo wasted too much time on Chuck....among many other problems.

But we have been through all of this before........I said what I needed to say. I don't need to keep rehashing this stuff over and over.

The NFL Net is about to talk Browns...I am going to go watch that.

Opinions do need to be based on reality, though. I can have an opinion that global warming will make the sky turn green, but that is an absurd opinion.

The article P just posted not only shows RAC and Savage working together on the coaching staff, but Savage also flat out sets the situation straight.

Enlighten me a bit was this article to refute my comments or add to the responses?

For me it just shows that both Rac/Phil discuss whats best and make moves regardless if the GM or Coach likes the change..

U did say something that was posted in articles several times...

It has been stated many times in articles that the Browns wanted DA to win the starting job. They felt he was better than Frye but did not come through.

They did want DA to win the job outright...he had the arm to make the throws Frye couldn't..
In Savage's recent pressers he admitted had Anderson beat him out they would have traded Frye immediately...it didn't happen that way.

BTW to the rest of you..Rac has this team believing it can win..

LOL, It wasn't "clear" last year about Frye. That's why there was a QB competition. Savage didn't step in and stop RAC, he was in agreement with RAC. In fact, it was reported MANY TIMES that DA was going to be cut. What saved him was the FACT that Frye had market value and DA didn't. Either QB was just a stop gap at that point, so they traded the one with trade value and got Dorsey back into camp.

Wow, for you to go to such lengths scares me, Peen. You're a good guy, but your theories on things almost make me wonder how much tin foil you go through a month.

I'm an old man and my memory may be faulty here.. but as I recall neither of the 2 QB's distanced themselves from the other. I went to camp and thought DA looked better and had more of an NFL arm, the question was would he "get it" upstairs..

I recall hearing that the coaching staff liked DA better but again there was no clear cut winner.. so the competition continued until a starter had to be named. IMO.. Chuckie got the job for no reason other than he'd been the previous starter. I remember thinking that CF was not NFL starter material but was willing to let him grow into the job.. my son was flat out disgusted with CF and wanted him gone a long time ago..

It's just me opinion and it's an opinion.. but I venture that this is more Savage's team than it is Romeo's

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Romeo is good at carrying out and following a plan. I don't think he is good at making a plan and is too loyal to his people. Friggen Mo Carthon would have still been coordinator here had RAC had his way.

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Peen...after the Pats won the Super Bowl and the Browns hired Crennel 2 days later, on Feb. 8, 2005, who was available to be hired as the Browns OC?

What choices did the Browns have beginning Feb. 8, 2005 when it came to filling their coaching staff?

Peen...I hate to keep asking you questions but just what is a "head coaches" job in the NFL?

It varies, doesn't it?

...Some coaches are experienced on the offensive side, some are experienced on the defensive side.

...I don't know of any, first time head coaches who were experienced in both offense and defense, which would be the ideal qualifications for a first time head coach.

...Interestingly, the side of the ball that Crennel had experience with, the defense...the Browns defensive coaching staff remains intact, going into the 3rd season. Is our defense playing well this season?...NOPE...and IMO, we can look for some changes in (player) personnel during the offseason.

When I look at Crennel, I see a guy learning to be a head coach. He is gaining valuable experience and yes, he has made some mistakes. After all, Crennel is a first time head coach and while some may have thought the Browns were headed for instant success...maybe those fans were a little "unrealistic".

Do we see improvement?....YEP. It's been slower coming than most of us wanted but we are beginning to see this franchise grow.

Many seem to forget how poor this franchise was when Savage and Crennel took it over. The front office had vacancies in management, scouting, player personnel and the support staff needed to be rebuilt in addition to coaching staff and players.

Peen, some fans do not believe Crennel is head coach material, but those fans forget, their opinions do not matter much.

It's the opinions of the players and coaches that matter the most and these players have not quit on Crennel and the coaching staff is working hard to produce those wins. I will agree that the Carthon situation exposed the loyalty that Crennel has in his coaching, to the point of being a fault.

Like I said, Crennel is a head coach in training and Browns fans must show some patients with him...

I'm sure you agree with that Peen...PATIENTS....WOOF, WOOF...mac

Your memory is correct. In fact, the reports were that out of OTAs DA had the edge only to regress and Frye caught up with him. Once Quinn was signed, it was reported Frye become much better (coincidence or responding to competition, I don't know). So, that is why Frye was named the starter.

Frye was a project when drafted and thrust in too soon. Then he didn't fit the new system that is in place now.

I respect your opinion, but to say that RAC has "zero" input on anything is nothing more than a slanted view by some.

but I venture that this is more Savage's team than it is Romeo's
Yes and no...from their comments regarding personnel...Phil talks to Rac and the coaches and sees what types of players they need...
Then he goes out and gets them.
Thats why Kam is here..Phil asked the coaches what they wanted ..a run stuffer or a pass rusher..Rac voiced his D would look better with a pass rusher..


Now Phil will do certain things(still consulting them) like look like he's the HMIC..shipping off players who are not a fit and bringing in guys who are better fits...
However it's still done with everyone's input..
He does have final say over the roster.