DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Possible trades

Without reading it, I would venture a guess that how valuable or overrated it is as variable as the person throwing. Not two people are the same. Some people have the body, strength, proprioception, etc.. to be able to do something with consistent accuracy while foregoing consistency in other parts of the platform. Mahommes is the most freakish example of this exception, currently. It's a thing that comes to him without having to work at it. Drew Brees, however, worked at that stuff CONSTANTLY.

IFf Baker is one of those whom his accuracy is tied to consistency with his footwork - and we saw some pretty solid empirical evidence pointing toward this last year - then it's reasonable to question an association between the coinciding regression of his footwork and his performance. My only question is: when did the regression manifest? Was it before the season, or after the injuries began to pile up? e.g. did the injuries put him in a position where attempting to throw while maintain the footwork was painful? Given that he had toe, ankle, and knee injuries on top of the shoulder. All of those injuries in his legs could have been, and likely were, factors - especially when taken as a whole with the other injury.

QBs work with their own QB coach in the off-season?!?!?

Working with Andy Reid, Eric Bieniemy, and Mike Kafka in season isn’t enough?

Agreed but why would you want to trade Hunt.. Yeah, we have Johnston.. And he plays a lot like Hunt so maybe that a good reason.. But Hunt is so damn solid...

But you ignore Purps point and the point I have made. We don't use receivers. We could have a team full of Rashard Higgings receivers and do just as well. It been posted by Steve...Stefanski pretty much ran Diggs out of Minnesota. OBJ didn't do amything here, goes to LA and starts to look good.

A receiver drafted in the 1st round is a waste on this team. Even the 2nd round is a wasted pick. We don't use receivers enough to make a impact in the Stefanski O, and I am not even bringing in any QB question marks.

I am not so much trashing the Stefanski O....it is what it is. We can win. What we don't need to do is put very many resources in to wide receivers. Put them in to positions that will enhance Stefanskis ball control offense,

I don't disagree, but there is a disconnect somewhere. If it isn't the O in general, it is something else. Something is keeping out O near the bottom of the league. When Hooper was in Atlanta he was catching 70-80 balls a year. Now he looks like we are giving Chad Mustard another shot,

J/C

I have not read through this thread, but heard on Bull and Fox how some would advocate for Carr for 2 1st round picks. That seems high for a guy who may not be much better than Baker

To contradict your statements "I firmly believe that Stefanski and AVP along with Berry want a dynamic passing attack," and "You don't do that with a bunch of Higgins type guys," then what the hell were they doing on the team? You're not focused on a passing attack when your QB takes 10-12 less offensive snaps per game than the top tier QB's. Only 6 QB's took less average per game snaps than Mayfield (350 or more snaps). It's not good company either:

24. Mayfield CLE 34.8571 snaps per game
25. Z. Wilson NYJ 34.6923
26. Bridgewater DEN 34.3571
27. Mills HOU 33.7692
28. Wilson SEA 33.6428
29. Tagovailoa MIA 33.5384
30. Fields CHI 31.0000

Compared to the top 5:
1. Allen BUF 46.0588
2. Jackson BAL 45.2500
3. Brady TBB 44.5294
4. Herbert LAC 44.2941
5. Mahomes KCC 43.4117

If we just compare to Jackson in BAL, that's almost 10 more plays every game where the defense of BAL is not on the field. That's 10 more plays offensively with the opportunity to score. That is of course if your team is not running multiple TE sets in over 40% of the total offensive plays like the Browns did in 2021. Add to that fact the Browns threw the ball 250 plus less times than the top tier teams explain's a whole lot about the Browns record in 2021.

Just one other item considering the PFF ratings for QB's. Baker Mayfield had PFF Offensive Grade of 63.6 in which he played injured in 12 of the 14 games he started.
When you look back for a comparison, I found something interesting with the PFF offensive Grades when looking at Tom Brady "The GOAT:"
Year-2, 2001-Tom Brady 52.2 PFF Offensive Grade with a 11-3 record in games played
Year-4, 2005-Tom Brady 42.2 PFF Offensive Grade with a 10-6 record in games played
Year-7, 2008-Tom Brady 50.2 PFF Offensive Grade with a 1-0 record in games played (suffered serious knee injury in week 1)

The question then is Mayfield actually bad or is it part of the growing process and injury reasons? According to posters here, you would have been campaigning to replace Brady in NE after his year 4 showing and he wasn't injured either. Difference, the team supported and continued to build an offense around their QB's skill set. Until the Browns organization finally realizes that building the offense around what your QB does best, the team will remain wildly inconsistent.

Crazy that the bad QBs all took less snaps and the all the good QBs took more snaps. And then there is Seattle. . .

Also, all the bad teams except for Miami (40.8%) were below 40% in 3rd down conversions.

KC, TB and Buffalo were the three best teams in 3rd down conversion with KC being the best at 52.2%. LAC was the 6th best at 45.2%. Baltimore is the outlier at 36.4%, however Baltimore was the best in the NFL at 4th down conversions at 66.7%. Baltimore was also 5th best in the NFL at getting a 1st down on 1st down.

Extending drives = more offensive opportunities

Do you know how snaps/game was calculated (if it's just total snaps divided by # of games, then injuries (ex. Wilson and Bridgewater) would have an impact on the #)? Is that passing snaps or just total # of offensive snaps?

So you’re saying play action and multiple tight ends is not what Baker does best?

Good Lord NO!

This is why I’ve said all along the price has to be reasonable. Carr is not a big enough upgrade from Baker to trade two first round picks.

I agree. But in a vacuum, I think Carr is a somewhat underrated QB in the NFL.

Both Bull and Fox have been wanting to move on from Baker for awhile and have been very vocal about it. This was more or less to troll the Baker bros and get people talking. They have 5 hours of airtime to fill.

First, Dustin Fox and Baker had their little Twitter dust up and now Wyatt Teller's wife is getting in on it.

Yup. If it was just a straight swap I’d do it every time.

Many great ones have. Tom House being one of the most notable.

Pitching guru Tom House also tutors top NFL quarterbacks

https://www.nfl.com/news/pitching-guru-tom-house-also-tutors-top-nfl-quarterbacks-09000d5d82acaf67

Why It's No Surprise to See Drew Brees and Tom Brady Playing Into Their 40s
Tom House was a pitching coach for some Texas Rangers who kept throwing well into their 40s. As a throwing coach for Drew Brees and Tom Brady, he has them uniquely positioned to keep doing the same.

https://www.si.com/nfl/2020/02/20/tom-house-drew-brees-tom-brady-40s-no-surprise

Tom House says half the league’s quarterbacks are seeking him out

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.c...eagues-quarterbacks-are-seeking-him-out/

Now don't get me wrong. I'm not trying to say a QB is wrong or isn't working hard if he chooses not to have a personal QB coach during the off season. He can also work with his coaches. At least I think so. I know the player contracts limit how much time a player is allowed to practice with team coaches. I have no idea if that includes the off season.

I'm simply pointing out that your premise of "Working with Andy Reid, Eric Bieniemy, and Mike Kafka in season isn’t enough?", doesn't really apply here. Tom Brady had Belichick and Brees had Payton as coaches and they both used House as their off season QB coaches.

cfrs was being sarcastic. Nearly all of the QBs in the NFL, particularly the best ones work with a private QB coach, except for Baker, which is the point.

Snaps by QB - not snaps by team. That's why you see Wilson on the low end of snaps due to his injury.

I do not have the breakdown specifically as to how many were passes compared to runs but I do know the Browns ran either a 2 TE set or 3 TE set over 40% of their plays meaning they only had 2 or fewer WR's on the field over 40% of their plays. I continue to read the Browns need a fallback plan for Baker - my question has been and continues to be what's the fallback plan when you can't run the ball? Running an explosive pass offense takes hours of practice and game situations to develop. The QB has to develop a rhythm and create a chemistry with his receivers. That is not developed by running 2 & 3 TE sets then magically sending out a 3 WR set 3-4 times a game. This scheme also eliminates any 2-minute drills and late 4th qtr comebacks because the chemistry is nonexistent. And as Aaron Rodgers stated, the Browns are not putting Mayfield in good situations. This goes hand in hand with the comment here on one of the boards that said we should not invest a lot in the WR group because we don't use them - and this is Baker's fault?

Like I've stated here many times, there is "NO" top tier QB going to ever consider coming to Cleveland knowing he will be throwing 250 plus less passes with a weak WR group. Truthfully, it would be career suicide.

For those who say Stefanski would change with a different QB need to look no further than what he did to Cousins his only year as OC in Minnesota - 2018 - Cousins had 606 attempts with 425 completions then 2019 with Stefanski as OC - 444 attempts (a 26.7% reduction) with 307 completions (a 27.8% reduction). He's done the exact same thing with Mayfield and as with the WR issues this is a trend not a one off. Every QB in the league knows coming to a Stefanski scheme means reduced production from the get go!

I wonder if we could swing a deal for Michael Thomas from the Saints? They're reportedly way over the cap, no coach, no QB (unless they re-sign Winston), and a good bet to be in rebuild mode. I'm not sure what Thomas' injury status is, but he might be available for a draft pick outside the 1st round, like a 2nd or maybe even a 3rd. A good get if he's healthy.

Michael Thomas and/or Calvin Ridley would be great choices to trade for even its a little more than what we want to give up to get them. However, Thomas hasn't played for a year and a half so that's a question mark but Berry could get that info. The other issue is Thomas' expectations. in 2018 and 2019, Thomas averaged 166 targets and 137 receptions for 1,565 yards per season. Why would the Browns go after such an explosive target who in his case would be looking at a 50% reduction in plays?

I believe there's talent out there the Browns need and most certainly could use at the WR position. It wasn't that long ago that it was thought that the Browns already had an explosive set with OBJ, Hooper, Landry and Higgins/Peoples-Jones. Getting a Ridey and/or Thomas might be talked about in the same breath but as long as we have a Head Coach that not only has a documented history of squashing the pass, he's upped his game in Cleveland. Honestly, either one of those guys would be a waste playing in the Stefanski scheme. You can't put two 1,000-yard receivers and an 800-yard receiving TE on a team that's going to throw the ball 250 less times than the top tier teams. Well, I guess you can but it sure seems like a waste of money when you have a coach that will refuse to use their skill set or have an offense built to their skill sets - maybe that's just me............... I mean he wouldn't do it with Diggs, Rudolph and Theilen; wouldn't do it with OBJ, Landry and Hooper; and I highly doubt he'd do it with a Thomas, Ridley and Hooper.

j/c

ya'll are blind if you don't see the entire team is behind Baker.

Heck, even the player's wives are calling out people.