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#1923068 02/01/22 05:00 PM
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We live in a time of amazing innovation. Self-driving cars, GPS satellites, 5G Internet, smart homes... a time that is closer to the Jetsons than the Flintstones. Innovations and progress are no more apparent than in the way football games have changed since the 1970's. 20+ camera angles, instant replay that can come instantaneously from NYC, computer-aided analytics covering everything from draft selections to play-calling. Even those super-cool and informative graphics that are superimposed on the field as the teams like up for the next play.

So someone must tell me why we still have this:

It's 4th and 1. Both teams line up. The snap/QB sneak. Big pile up. It is not certain that the offense has managed to reach the line to gain.

Now, dudes run out from the sidelines with two sticks connected by a 30 ft. chain to determine the outcome of the play. This aspect of the game has remained unchanged since the inception of the game. This is archaic, inefficient, and extremely vulnerable to inaccuracies. Inexcusable, in a playoff game with incredibly high stakes.

There must be a better way. We just shot a billion dollar telescope a million miles into space, and we can't develop a more inherently accurate means of determining the ball's exact location on the field? Stupid, I say.

So... here is the address at which I invite you to suggest your better alternative. I look forward to your ideas.

Cheers, clem


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I'm not an engineer, but some kind of chips in each end of the ball and sensors mounted on the first down poles on each sideline opposite each other would be better than what we have now.

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Originally Posted by Clemdawg
We live in a time of amazing innovation. Self-driving cars, GPS satellites, 5G Internet, smart homes... a time that is closer to the Jetsons than the Flintstones. Innovations and progress are no more apparent than in the way football games have changed since the 1970's. 20+ camera angles, instant replay that can come instantaneously from NYC, computer-aided analytics covering everything from draft selections to play-calling. Even those super-cool and informative graphics that are superimposed on the field as the teams like up for the next play.

So someone must tell me why we still have this:

It's 4th and 1. Both teams line up. The snap/QB sneak. Big pile up. It is not certain that the offense has managed to reach the line to gain.

Now, dudes run out from the sidelines with two sticks connected by a 30 ft. chain to determine the outcome of the play. This aspect of the game has remained unchanged since the inception of the game. This is archaic, inefficient, and extremely vulnerable to inaccuracies. Inexcusable, in a playoff game with incredibly high stakes.

There must be a better way. We just shot a billion dollar telescope a million miles into space, and we can't develop a more inherently accurate means of determining the ball's exact location on the field? Stupid, I say.

So... here is the address at which I invite you to suggest your better alternative. I look forward to your ideas.

Cheers, clem

I always found it interesting that ball placement is based on an arbitrary placement from some guy standing on the sidelines, but a measurement is to the millimeter with a chain from the sideline.

Agreed, they should be able to have something on the ball ends that is highly visible to a certain camera or something.


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I'm glad you brought this up. I've searched for viable info in the past and there was nothing there, now I've found this article from Nov 2021...

Apparently there are already "chips" in footballs. If you read below in "The big roadblock", you'll see a bunch of lame excuses and a hard to believe fact -- they say that RFID (radio-frequency identification) tech is only accurate to within six inches. They also say any kind of optical tech would be inconclusive because the ball is always surrounded by bodies (makes sense).

As far as the excuses. I don't understand how you can dismiss better tech because it's not perfect. In many cases we're trusting the eyes of a sixty-year-old from up to thirty feet away. There is one obvious "problem", and they spell it out well, we need to pair the tracking data with the point in time that a body part touches the ground. Obviously not perfect, but we're doing it now with slow motion cameras from different angles, that fail miserably when the ball is not visible... in those cases, the tech would seem to pair perfectly.

The worst part of those excuses is "well, will it really affect that many plays anyway?" Tell that to the team that is denied a playoff victory because we're still at neanderthal level tech, or the Cleveland Browns fans in 2021 playoffs, denied a TD because the fumble occurred before the ball broke the plane... according to an imperfect camera angle.

Anyway...


Quote
Yes, the NFL puts microchips in footballs, but they’re not ready for prime time on key calls – yet
Henry Bushnell
November 16, 2021·8 min read
Late in the fourth quarter of a prime-time showdown, with the NFL’s last undefeated record in peril, Aaron Jones slammed into a wall of Arizona Cardinal defenders and disappeared.

Referees ran toward him. One signaled touchdown. Back in a New York office, and up in a stadium booth in Arizona, NFL officials questioned the call on the field. They scoured video for evidence. They watched one replay, then a second. Then a third, a fourth and a fifth. They needed proof that Jones’ backside had touched down before the ball reached the goal line. What they soon realized was that, with 300-pound men surrounding Jones, a single confirmatory camera angle did not exist.

What they also might have realized was that, beneath the surface of NFL games, technology that could’ve assisted them does exist.

For decades, the NFL has relied on stripe-shirted humans with imperfect judgement and obstructed views to spot footballs; to determine whether runners reach yard lines or goal lines; to pinpoint where balls cross sidelines. In real-time, it’s often impossible. Even on replay, it can be difficult.

But in 2017, the league inserted a coin-sized microchip into its footballs. The chips unlocked a bottomless vault of data, and an ability to track the ball’s location. Initially, they weren’t used to aid referees. According to people with knowledge of the NFL’s technology, that’s changing.

Matt Swensson, the league’s vice president of emerging products and technology, said the tracking data now enables officials to adjust spots after punts fly out of bounds. Swensson also said the NFL is testing systems that would “marry up data and video” during replay reviews of touchdowns, like Jones’ in late October, and perhaps tell officials whether a ball hidden among bodies crossed an end-zone plane.

“We're trying to get a complete digital record of the game,” Swensson said. “And over the past couple years, we've built and we're testing some things around officiating.”

Implementation of such a system, though, is not imminent. Automation of officiating processes isn’t inevitable. Because, as Swensson said, “when you get into ‘did the ball cross the plane for a touchdown,’” using the technology “gets a little more complicated.”


The big roadblock
This conversation, around technological innovation in refereeing, is not new. Dean Blandino, a former NFL vice president of officiating, remembers having versions of it 20 years ago, “when the technology was still in its infancy.” Ever since, the tech has improved, and proliferated in other sports. In tennis, the Hawk-Eye optical tracking tool rules whether a shot was in or out. In soccer, a similar system tells referees within seconds whether a ball crossed the goal line.

To casual observers, the concept seems replicable in football. But, as those who’ve tried to replicate it explain, the NFL’s challenge is far more complex. In those other sports, the sole consideration is the location of the ball in space. In football, officials must determine the location of the ball when or before a player’s knee, forearm or other body part touches the ground. That, said Blandino, who worked at the league for two decades and left in 2017, has always been “the big roadblock.”

Any real-time automated ball-spotting system would need to detect not only the ball, but also every body part of the ball-carrier, and every whistle blown to rule forward progress stopped. The system would then need to sync those processes, and communicate a definitive conclusion to an on-field ref almost instantly. Some believe that’ll never be feasible. Swensson thinks that someday, “it could be possible,” but he admitted: “We're just not there yet.” And even if technological advancements made it possible, officiating and tech experts question how such a system could be implemented without disrupting the flow of a game. Terry McAulay, who worked as an NFL official from 1998-2017, imagines that hypothetical communication system being “very distracting.”

The league has instead focused on exploring how ball-tracking technology could supplement replay reviews. “Theoretically and technically,” said John Pollard, a vice president at Zebra Sports, the NFL’s on-field tracking provider, “it's feasible to use RFID [radio-frequency identification] technology to do that."


Marrying the technology
RFID tech allows NFL officials staring at monitors in New York to read data on the flight of a football. The virtually weightless microchips inside the balls weren’t initially designed to precisely locate them. But Pollard said they’re capable of “supporting [the] locationing of the ball, or identifying where a ball goes out of bounds, or potentially crosses a goal line.”

An optical tracking system, like Hawk-Eye, can’t do this alone, because footballs are so often obscured by bodies. But the radio-frequency system, either in concert with optical tracking or on its own, could help on plays like Jones’ goal-line plunge, when visuals seemingly don’t offer definitive evidence. The NFL and its tech partners could sync ball-tracking data with replays. Officials could view the replay, and decide when a player’s knee or butt or elbow touched the ground. Tracking data could then tell them, at that exact moment, whether the ball had broken the goal-line plane.

“I think that's the way to approach it,” Blandino said.

Swensson called this “a first logical step.”

The experts who spoke to Yahoo Sports also pointed out that sideline plays — whether punts or lunges for the pylon — are easier for the tech to assess. “Because at that point, you're really just talking about the ball and a location,” Blandino said. “A lot of spots at the sideline, the runner doesn't step out of bounds … the spot is where the ball crosses the sideline.”

Swensson, though, believes the RFID tech will be most useful in short-yardage scrums, when sideline cameras don’t pick up the ball. And that, unfortunately, is where the RFID tech is least accurate.

Swensson and Pollard said that its error margin is up to 6 inches, more than half the length of a football. That doesn’t mean readings are off by 6 inches every time. But they can be. “There are limitations to any technology,” Swensson said. Then he added: “You don't necessarily know the orientation of the ball. The tag's not in the tip of the ball. A lot of things can add up. We're not comfortable using ball tracking alone to say, ‘Did the ball cross the plane?’”

The narrower the error margin, the more comfortable they’ll get. Swensson mentioned “a couple of inches, with a level of consistency,” as a potential threshold. It’s unclear exactly how Zebra and the NFL will reduce it, or how they’ll marry video and data, but the one inevitability is that both the video and data will improve.

“I think the two working in concert would be very effective — or will be very effective,” Swensson said. “I just don't think we're ready to pull the trigger on that yet.”


Is ball-tracking technology worth it?
A key aspect of that decision-making process will ultimately be a cost-benefit analysis. How many incorrect calls, unfixable under the current system, would the technology correct? And will that accuracy, as Blandino said, “supersede the cost, and the manpower, the research, the technology,” without interrupting the flow of the sport and confusing or disillusioning viewers?

There were more than 40,000 NFL plays last season. Just 364 of them were reviewed. More than a third of the 364 were of a catch, interception or incompletion. Only a fraction of the remaining reviews were of a spot or goal-line crossing. Only a fraction of those delivered insufficient evidence to confirm or reverse the call on the field. And only a fraction of those calls that “stood” should have and could have been overturned by introducing data into the process.

“The availability of more information and technology is something that is worth considering,” Pollard said, but then added: “Can I say that it would absolutely change and evolve the game ... significantly? I can't say that. I don't know.”

The impact, for now, would be marginal, perhaps a dozen consequential plays over five months. That won’t stop the NFL from flexing technological muscle, and seeking to improve the game in granular detail. Especially when millions of dollars ride on every result. But absent “a widespread trend,” as Blandino said, or “an issue that is happening every game,” pressure to implement a high-tech system will be low. Only an Aaron Jones-esque incident late in a playoff game could up that pressure.

Absent it, the league will continue rigorous testing, implementing technology behind the scenes but not yet communicating it to officials mid-game. The system that now allows the NFL to re-spot shanked punts was tested “for years,” Swensson said, before the league quietly deemed it ready for showtime. Any goal-line or first-down technology will undergo a similar process.

There are no target dates, no timelines. And there is no eagerness within the NFL to eventually replace refs with robots. But, Pollard said, “there's a future out there where more information and technology is going to be in the hands of officiating crews.”

And if it aids them, and doesn’t slow or harm the sport, it’ll be welcomed.

“I think there will come a time,” Blandino said. “where we can implement it seamlessly, and we can be more accurate.”

https://sports.yahoo.com/yes-the-nfl-puts-microchips-in-footballs-but-theyre-not-ready-for-prime-time-on-key-calls-yet-170309841.html#:~:text=Even%20on%20replay%2C%20it%20can,t%20used%20to%20aid%20referees.

Last edited by FATE; 02/01/22 05:41 PM.

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It boils down to whether there is technology that can make the entire surface of a ball "readable" thru obstacles. If not, change the rules so that the chip implanted in the center of the ball is what has to reach the line to gain, cross the goal line or stay in bounds.


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Wouldn't you just have two chips in the ball, one on each end?


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Interesting question.

That is right there with a digital strikezone in baseball.

AAA minors this year will have some games using an automated strikezone.

Yes the technolgy is here. Use it.

FATE #1923096 02/01/22 07:32 PM
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That would probably be better, or one at each end and 6 around the circumference at the middle. I wonder how much those sensors would cost? I wonder if Brady deflating the balls would have an effect?


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There are all sots of goofy situations. Take a fumble or onside kick. Most of the time you see who has control of the ball, guys pile on, lodge the ball loose.

My question is if a player has the ball and is on the ground, is it not down by contact the instant someone touches him?

Why not just have a scrum on every play a running back carries the ball or receiver gets tackled?

As for ball placement and measurements, you still have someone placing the ball. I guess we could go with chips or laser measurement. You could set a laser and shine it across the field. If after the ball is placed the beam is broken and shows on the ball, 1st down.

That way if the chains had to be moved as players run out of bounds, you could be sure the chains were placed back in a accurate placement. You have chains or markers on both sides of the field. Both aren't going to be disrupted on the same play. Set the laser so it hits a target on the other marker on the other side of the field.


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Originally Posted by jfanent
That would probably be better, or one at each end and 6 around the circumference at the middle. I wonder how much those sensors would cost? I wonder if Brady deflating the balls would have an effect?

.000003% of revenue

Probably not as much as the effect of Aaron Rodgers over-inflating them. laugh


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It's human error ! That's what makes emotions and the game worth watching.

Make everything perfect then it takes the emotions out of the game. Making mistakes is a part of life and when everything needs to be right and perfect then what will happen to our emotions ? Become robotic ? no thanks !

I would stop watching the game itself if it became perfect.. sit there watching a robot make a perfect call every time,, not for me.. Mistakes are a fun thing ! I know, I make them all the time

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RFID is not the correct technology. I am not sure what technology is, but GPS gets you within 3 feet from outer space. I am sure that we can get there if there was a want. We know there is a need. You need three points to triangulate from space.


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I'd like to take this moment to appreciate the current system of the chains and the orange marker. It is a part of the game that is not broken, it is a tradition, it adds to the character of the game of football. I think it provides 3 jobs per football game, so we're talking easily 10s of jobs in the NFL, if not dozens or scores. (A score is 20, so multiples of 20)
And then, if you include other leagues, that might adopt the change, the CFL, College Football, (measley unknown other college football, like, seriously had you heard of Appalachian state before they beat Michigan near 2007, I hadn't), and then High school football, not to mention ( Arena league!, and Spring leagues like the XFL and such)
So we're basically talking about more than 500 jobs across the USA, (and what if they play football all over the world, I just thought of that, what about Mexico, ). Do I want to take away a job, from a guy in mexico, who measures first downs, I mean what is he going to do?
I like the first down markers' system.
It's not broken, I don't think there is any reason to fix it.

Faster is not always better folks. ( I came up with a formula, the other day, it goes as such, "the faster a trip," like a plane ride or a boat across the ocean, "the less significance people will place on it." ) For instance, if you are about to go on an ocean voyage, it becomes a significant event in a persons life. However, if you are about to go from one room in your home to another, it holds no significance.
And if you think about it. If you always instantly knew, the outcome of these first down measurements, it would impact the way fans experience football games.
I mean, if you scratch off a lottery ticket, and you get two cherries in the first two boxes, isn't there something to, the instant in time before you reveal that final box you are about to scratch off and realize you didn't win squat.

I appreciate the chain gang, the measurements, the current system. and Yes, I believe We Can Do Better, it's nice to see the positivity.
I believe,
commiting to the current system. Would be welcome change. A Change- of, bucking the trend that all changes are better.
A Change that a commitment, to the Integrity of the game, as is, (instead of just chaning everything willy-nilly like they've done since goodell became commissioner.
That
It would actually be doing better, to commit to not changing the current system, and hold an appreciation for it, as it is.
Like ART.
You could change the Mona Lisa every 3 weeks, constantly designing a more aesthetic face, But! there would be no significance, over time to the thing in front of you, in the end.

And besides. We already have Madden as a video game. And they make those, new every year right?.


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I do buy the argument of "would it really make a difference" in that they have so many other things they need to fix first.

I still don't think we know what a catch is. We definitely still don't know what PI is. We've given up on offensive holding. We have the NFL trying to tell us that the whistle in the Raiders-Cinci game came after the catch when it clearly didn't.


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I'd prefer they fix everything simultaneously but I get your point lol.

You've got me thinking though. With any big corp you have to put on your "evil" cap and do some critical thinking... when everything they do seems so counter-intuitive.

Maybe avoiding all such tech is paramount to "excusing" every bad call under the guise of "c'mon people, these guys have a really hard job!"


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I'm slowly becoming more and more cynical regarding NFL officiating, but someone earlier on did make a great point and I'm going to jump from there.

Significant portions/plays in the game come down to 1-2 pairs of 60'ish year old eyes standing (or running, even) 10-20 yards away. I think introducing advanced tools into the game might be more pointless than anything when that extra accuracy/reliability is offset by the human element in the process that's right before/after (ex. yes the ball went forward but was it a fumble or an incomplete pass; no, the ball didn't make the marker but was it spotted correctly by the judge that somehow was able to see through the mass of bodies from the sideline and accurately judge where the ball was when the knee went down; when DID that play clock actually start).


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Can't disagree with any of that, but tech has it's way, in the end, either way. Look at the past five years of "super-slow-mo" and it's influence on the game. I hear Tony Romo's voice in my head "Oh, ohh, OHHH, WAS THAT BALL MOVING?" as we're all trying desperately to judge what exactly is a catch. The replay booth is now a "real time" jury, judging every play as it's going on... buzzing down to the field when they see something wrong. What I'm saying is -- the path will continue anyway, may as well involve other helpful tech.

That said, my cynicism says the NFL loves the "WWF" aspect because it attracts eyeballs and gives every casual fan a spot at the water cooler Monday morning as everyone argues about blown calls, teams getting robbed, etc...


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The officiating cost us two games this past season IMO: Packers game and chargers game.

Ticky-tak pass interferences calls are the worst because they are so impactful. They are ruining the games for me.


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Part of me wishes we could just go back to when the call on the field was the call, period. As it is now, you never know if what you saw will stand, and the endless slow motion replays of a knees hitting the ground, receivers feet being inbounds, and balls being in possession, etc, get very tedious.

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Then the part of me that wishes that, looks back...

Remember when we would watch games twenty years ago and marvel at the job officials would do?

Ball placement -- spot on almost every time.

PI? You'd watch the replay and think "Wow, how did he see that at full speed? Dude is ACE!" Toe tap in the endzone... replay shows a ref five feet away focused on the grass, making the right call every time.

At least that's the way it seemed to me.

It was really a different degree of excellence that has constantly degraded over time. Add in all the judgement calls, pile on "don't let anybody get hit hard without throwing a flag", mix in a little "we should all get together like a jury and discuss every penalty"... and it almost feels like a point of no return. Especially when you add the layer of refs throwing hip-checks to change the outcome of games.

I'd go back in a heartbeat, but crappy (seemingly biased) talent, 160 frames per second in HD, iced with Tony Romo's wild eyes, would never let that happen.


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100%... why we still have two dudes holding a chain on the sidelines is beyond me.... we have the ability to use technology... put a damn chip in the ball and lets figure this out


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