DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Watson continued (new grand jury)

That's entirely possible.

My complaint is not with people that don't believe that the 22 are lying. It's the people that are stating that 22 women can't be lying that I find illogical.

Well - your example is correct. If you flip the coin 22 times and they are all heads - the next toss is still absolutely 50/50.

But with regards to starting at 2 - what are the odds of the next 20 being heads in a row. That would be a better analogy here.

And we aren't talking about a coin - this is people and lives. I get the impression that folks think it would be easy to flippantly lie about this and carry on life as normal. I would think every person who made this allegation has had their life turned upside down.

It's not that folks think it would be easy to lie and go back to normal life. It's more the idea that people under 30 aren't always known for considering the consequences of their actions. This is the same generation that made the Tide Pod challenge a thing. Mix in a smooth talking lawyer putting images of dollar signs in their heads. Finding 22 people willing to bend the truth doesn't seem outside the realm of possibility.

Throw in the number of cases and apparent complete lack of evidence supporting it, consider the alleged evidence against their version of events and the grand jury decisions, and the potential of their lying seems increasingly possible - if far from definite.

It occurs to me the NFL may take the position that they will wait until the civil suits are settled or adjudicated before enacting a suspension, giving themselves the latitude to delay suspension until next year when the economic impact is greater, in light of the attention the low first-year salary has received. Any thoughts on this? Sorry if too astray from the thread discussion.

Well that's reasonable to an extent, some youths are less likely to consider all the ramifications of a situation. I think branding them all with that label would be wrong.

Bottom line is that it is entirely possibility that some of the 22 are telling the truth and that the truth will never be proven. There is also a possibility that Watson is entirely innocent and the victim of an elaborate sting and all 22 allegations are false - personally I believe that to be the smaller of the two possibilities. What isn't up for debate is Watson using over 40 different massage therapists and looking for sexual services from most of them. As others have said - time to move on. But to reiterate a point that Pit has made - the willingness and presumption of many to insinuate that licensed massage therapists should be viewed as virtual sex workers without standing and automatically to be dismissed is nauseating and says everything about any individual espousing those views and nothing about the women themselves. I know that's not what you have said - but that view has been widely expressed across many forum boards.

I've been debating about posting this memory ever since the DW stories dropped. It goes back 2 decades. This was my invitation.

__________

I took a call to play a series of engagements in Detroit. It was a Motown Soul/Gospel/R&B/Jazz review. A major project- lucrative enough that I took a week off from my main job to be a part of Music History. Several reading sessions, 3 intensive rehearsals, followed by 3 days of studio recording sessions and 2 concerts at the Fox Theater. When you spend that much time with the same folks, strangers become colleagues. Some colleagues become friends.

I met a young violist that week. Her uncle was the Jazz legend, Sir Roland Hannah. We're chatting during rehearsal break, and she tells me that viola was a love that she didn't want to pursue full-time, because of her uncle's stories of how grueling The Life can be. Instead, she loved playing only the gigs that she wanted to.

I ask her: "So- if you don't play The Life.... what do you do?"

"I'm a licensed Deep-tissue Massage Therapist."
"Wow. I've never met a masseuse before..."


"-And you still haven't. I apply medical manipulation to specific muscle groups. I'm a health care worker. A masseuse wears a bikini-"


I innocently (no- ignorantly) walked into that exchange, because I was oblivious of a distinction.
I'm no longer innocent or ignorant.


The distinction defines the difference.

Thanks, Clem. Reminds us that context is so essential....

I will continue to defend these 22 women’s right to have their cases heard in a fair and unbiased way without them being questioned and marginalized all over the place.

The number 230 million tells me that it’s a high probability that someone is orchestrating a disinformation and smear campaign. Maybe together with a “unknown” organization/owner/law firm that also has interest in that these women’s credibility is as low as possible in the public opinion. Ask yourself who benefits most if these women being crushed. Judging from what I’m reading at this place and on many other social media platforms they seems to have a relative high success rate among some men who maybe don’t like independent women who don’t accept being treated like prostitutes and without some decency.

Strong words but as elder man, a husband and a father of four daughters I’m embarrassed that many Browns supporters has such Stone Age view of what it means to be cornered and participating in something they feel uncomfortable with by someone with more power, money and reputation. Who will believe in a young massage therapist when she questioning the local hero who’s adored by hundred of thousand men? Listening to Andrew Berry and his stuttering at the press conference was bad enough, what a total train wreck of weak explanations.

Well, that was pretty clear.. Thanks Clem.

You know it occurs to me that the only person saying all 22 women lied is Watson.

"The number 230 million tells me that it’s a high probability that someone is orchestrating a disinformation and smear campaign. Maybe together with a “unknown” organization/owner/law firm that also has interest in that these women’s credibility is as low as possible in the public opinion. Ask yourself who benefits most if these women being crushed."

I see what you are saying, it could easily be just the opposite. Very rich young athlete is targeted by someone looking for financial gain. Maybe one or two of the women had a bad experience with Watson, so the lawyer investigates who else had interactions with him. They devise a plan to get together and for a story that could lead to big financial gains for all. Also, none of these women have been "crushed", and their identities are not even talked about. But Watson's character has been and still is being attacked daily. Who's to say that someone in the Texans organization isn't behind this? None of it came out until he wanted out.

My scenario is hypothetical just like yours. It is not what I believe, I want to make that clear. But just as easy as it is to say Watson isn't being truthful, and can be deduced that maybe those bringing the charges are not being truthful.

My feeling is that something took place, but at what extent? Two grand juries came to the same conclusion, and that is all I have to go on.

As this relates to DW, most of the accusers were not licensed massage therapists though. I'd like to see the Instagram ads showing how the services were advertised. I really can't wait for this civil trial to see the evidence and what the actual depositions say. I'm trying to be open minded about this, looking at what we actually know from both sides. I believe the media headlines are really skewing things. Like calling it a "sexual assault trial" when only 2 of the accusers are actually claiming sexual assault. Everywhere you look, the article will say 22 massage therapists are filing suit, when actually only 8 or nine of the accusers are actually massage therapists. When the few actual facts we have in this case need to be distorted like that, it's cause for concern. I'm also looking at the fact that not one of these accusers filed a complaint until they were contacted by Buzbee.

You do have to look at the fact that there are 22 people accusing DW of wrongdoing, and that the Texan employee that arranged some of his massages plead the 5th. I don't think there's any doubt that DW was looking for sexual encounters when he booked massages thru Instagram, and he admitted they took place.

Were actual crimes committed? Being a Browns fan isn't easy.

Which in no way addresses the topic of the allegations against him, yet again. Which I expected. . Once again arch it seems you still have a problem understanding punctuation. A question mark means someone is asking you a question. A statement would be required to accuse you of saying something or putting words in your mouth.

You're welcome.

In other words, "Well he didn't assault all of them so he must not have assaulted any of them."

And getting a indictment from a grand jury is high, like 98.5% high or higher. If the grand jury sends back a no bill, the evidence is as flimsy as it gets, or non-existent. On a 12 person panel, all states are different, but 1/3 voting true can send something to trial.

In many of the no bill cases, the DA may not have even pursued the issue except for the optics of the matter.

No different than saying, "he didn't assault all of them, but he must have assaulted some of them".

That sounds great if these allegations had been made after he signed that contract. But that's not how it happened. He was still rich if that's your point. But the "230 million" part is factually bogus.


Probably the same group of people they used to steal the election.

As for the owner of the Texans. Let's look at that for just a second since that's one of the conspiracy theories being floated around. If you had a top 5 QB that you felt may force your hand into trading him, why would you want to make up some crazy story that might diminish his value? Why would you want to decrease the competition among other teams because some teams may actually care about the morality factor here?

Attempting to devalue an asset makes no sense. Then of course there's the other theory when an attorney rounded up 22 random women who all just "happened to" be called by Watson for massages and coordinate a concocted story that provides a timeline and repeated similar and escalating offense. Yeah, that makes sense. lol

Then one would have to ignore that having this many message therapists is triple and quadruple what other NFL players have.

Lastly but not least is the latest crazy twist. "DW must be a sex addict". Yeah, sure.....

If this were actually true he would be calling escort services, not massage therapists. But people somehow can't differentiate who you would call to get a hooker and who you would call to get a massage.

But just ask Bull Dawg, that isn't logical.

Actually it's not even close to the same thing. But I think you know that. For it to not to be any different I would have to believe that those saying he didn't assault them were all liars. That a lawyer tried to concoct a story, get all of those women to lie and claim he didn't assault them. The mental gymnastics it would take to come to that conclusion is quite different.

22 accused him of sexual assault... some of those 22 admitted they lied

18 said that he was perfectly appropriate with him

he's denied it all

2 grand juries decided there wasn't enough evidence to bring criminal charges...

at this point who the hell knows what actually happened...

The Civil Suits need to play out... but frankly, no one has any idea who is telling the truth...

Yeah, nobody knows if all 22 women are lying or not. I mean they're massage therapists right? If someone thinks that's a remote possibility of what actually happened they're convincing themselves of opening their minds to terrible odds.

/quote]

22 accused him of sexual assault... some of those 22 admitted they lied.[/quote]

I'm pretty sure that is not accurate. I don't know the actual number, but IIRC only a few accused him of the "crime of sexual assault", again IIRC most accused him of harassment or crimes less to that degree. I know it doesn't make it right so please don't jump om my statement for that, but this is why there is so much disinformation in the world.

Posters have written numerous "possibilities" of what happened between DW and the 22. Some are more plausible than others but none are so bazaar that those scenarios could not have happened. After the Duke case I wait until everything is known, at least until it seems like all info is out there that will be. I don't like what he is accused of, but I also didn't like a lot of what some other guys have done who have played for the Browns the past couple decades. Hopefully time will sort this out.

I will be a Browns fan going forward. Someone else pointed out the other day, if you stop being a Browns fans over this, but continue to watch the NFL or choose another team, your moral outrage is far too limited. IF DW were to remain with Houston and you still watched the NFL, your outrage is a bit narrow.

Now the narrative will that the 18 were paid to back him, and this is a ploy to clear him. I'll sit back and wait, I'm sure the usual suspects already have made this conclusion. Just like the ones who claimed the Haslams were hiding during the press conference, until they did a press conference.

That is also a distinct possibility. Things like that do happen. Not sure if cops would investigate that type allegation if the GJ is not longer convened & will be looking at it.

So making that claim about his accusers is fine, but if you see the same claims made in the other direction it's not fine? Hmmmmmm..

Anyone making that claim in either direction are being foolish. But it hasn't stopped a lot of people. And I didn't see you make an objection to it then. You only object to such a claim depending on which direction the accusation is directed. Why am I not surprised?

Here we go again with the Duke case. In the Duke case it was the word of one woman, not twenty two. But you keep comparing them because it makes it sound better. These two situations aren't even close to the same thing.

No offense, but neither you nor anybody else gets to define my fanhood, or degrees of "moral outrage" (your term, not mine). You're entitled to think what you will of my attitudes, but that's the extent of it.

J/c

Re: Pit's post name dropping me

Conflating probability and certainty is illogical. Ascribing population statistics to a sample whose distribution doesn't reflect the makeup of the larger group is illogical. Denying the possibility of the statistically improbable is illogical.

What you believe may be true. However, your argument is flawed.

I really don't want to post much more in this thread because it's creepy how some think they can tell others what to think, but this reply seems level-headed and objective to me. It would be nice to have intelligent conversations about topics such as this, but things are the way they are.

When some of them have already said that they lied and two grand juries decided to pass, I'd rather wait to see how the civil trial comes out before convicting the guy....

prior to these accusations Deshaun appeared to be a model NFL player...

If you go to nightclubs over a span of a year or two and meet 50+ women and 22 of them afterwards complain about your behavior then you have a problem you must address. Maybe you’re not doing something illegal but the sheer volume of numbers should tell you that something you do isn’t appreciated by most women. If you don’t by this time understand that your social competence is letting you down then there is probably a huge risk that if you continue to interact in the same way with women something will probably in the future go to a place close to disaster. It’s not rocket science to understand and predict this.

Being a morally questionable individual isn’t illegal but at the same time it’s not exactly an asset if you’re going to be the poster boy of a NFL organization. Some of you don’t care as long as the Browns win games but for me and many others it’s problematic. It itches me and make me feel uncomfortable.

I want to like our QB. I want to like DeShaun Watson. I want to cheer with full joy whenever we win a game. Just like the rest of you. Unfortunately it’s hard to overcome Watson’s past history without becoming thoughtful. Every time I see one of my daughters or probably any other women when watching and cheering for the Browns I will lower my voice and maybe be a little less cheerful. That bothers me.

My best case scenario is if DeShaun Watson starts to show a little bit of remorse. Address publicly that he probably has a problem with interacting with women and accept that in these situations we all need some counseling and help. Nothing wrong with that and most women will easily accept such scenario instead him just trying to deny everything. It’s easier to forgive then to forget.

Never ever underestimate peoples willingness to forgive and at the same time our stubbornness to remember.

I think the Duke case is a great example to pay attention to. The main point being, wait until we know as much as possible, 1 accuser or 100. I am sure as heck not defending DW, nor am I calling the 22 liars, but if you don't see a parallel it sounds like you want him to be guilty.

I don't know how much you know about it, but when I first heard about it I was thinking but of rich kids taking advantage of a poor woman who has to strip to earn a living. I am sure when the news first came out if someone "guessed" maybe the DA invented evidence & DNA was lied about & the supposed victim was shown only Duke lacrosse players pics to ID and her initial physical description of the assaulters were not even close to the players identified.

By the way, I hate Duke and could care less about lacrosse.

Dave, I have no idea of anything you have posted on here. IN fact, I had to check your sig to see how many posts you have made. I was stunned to see it was over 13,000 and if my life depended on it I couldn't recall your DT name. Only saying thus because you appear to have thought my point was directed at you. I can only assume I must have read some of what you posted in the past but my point was to posters that were unable to support the Browns because of the accusations against a player they traded for. I thought, if so, how can you watch any of teams that tried to trade for him at all. The NFL will eventually have to decide when he is able to play so the NFL admin will be allowing him to play. Of course no one has to listen to me and be fan of any team in particular. I haven't posted a lot about this because I am waiting for as much detail as possible to come out.

From the court of public opinion...

Jim Thome’s Wife Says Family is Canceling Browns Season Tickets After Deshaun Watson Trade
JOSEPH SALVADOR7 HOURS AGO

Andrea Thome, the wife of former Cleveland baseball player Jim Thome, announced on Twitter that her family canceled their season tickets for Browns games Friday after the team introduced quarterback Deshaun Watson.

“Officially cancelled our Browns season tickets today and asked for a refund as they were paid in full,” she said in the tweet. “Very sad after 40 years as a fan, but this is my line in the sand. I believe women. Especially when there are 22 of them. That press conference did nothing to change my mind.”


Cleveland introduced Watson during a Friday press conference after a Harris County, Texas grand jury returned nine “no” bills on nine criminal complaints against Watson, who is still facing 22 active civil lawsuits that detail graphic accounts of sexual harassment and sexual assault that occurred during massage therapy sessions.

These accounts range from Watson refusing to cover his genitals to “touching [a plaintiff] with his penis and trying to force her to perform oral sex on him.” According to Jenny Vrentas of The New York Times, the criminal complaints he previously faced involved similar descriptions, including Watson’s ejaculating on them and either other forms of sexual assault or attempted sexual assault.

During the press conference, Watson denied assaulting, harassing or disrespecting any woman. But the Thome family, as well as some other fans, don’t seem to be buying it. Andrea added that if the Browns don’t refund the tickets, she would auction off every one of their tickets and publicly donate the money to different women’s crisis charities.

Her husband, Jim, is a Hall of Famer who spent 12 seasons in Cleveland, where he was named an All-Star three times. FF

https://www.si.com/nfl/2022/03/28/j...eason-tickets-after-deshaun-watson-trade

A guy is maintaining his innocence, and you want him to stop doing that? You want him to stop denying the things he didn’t do? Show remorse for something he isn’t guilty of?

Yea, I wouldn’t do that either if I was innocent.

One thing I frequently come back to is the one part of the text that was shared by his 'handler'. She said something to the effect of 'these guys don't get told no very often'. I very much agree with the part of your statement I quoted above. As a fan trying to figure out how to root for a team with a guy with a past like Watson's front-and-center, I worry that his situation will linger in this weird grey area forever. Neither side in the debate will be proven right or wrong.

Don't know if it's true, but the saying is, you can get a ham sandwich indicted LOL

I posted a link. Nationally only 5% of all sexual assault cases reported to the police end up being prosecuted. 0.7% are convicted.

Anyone using the GJ decision to sway their opinion might be assuming that ham sandwich can be indicted, but with regards to this area of criminal prosecution that is not rhe case. It's why, based on studies, 31% of assaults don't even get reported. I guess people could accuse women of lying about being sexuay assaulted and not reporting it to the police? But I don't see a motive or angle for doing that.

I am not saying it is right, wrong, your numbers are wrong, my numbers are proof or anything like that.

The fact is it is very hard to prove beyond the accusation, so it is what it is. We can't just start taking peoples word or you start making people prove innocence, and how do you do that? You can't, especially in a case like this.

That is why these cases are few to go to trial and fewer result in conviction. Without proof, what do you have?

I'll ask a very basic question to anyone who wants to answer.

Do you believe that proof is needed to convict someone of a crime? Yes or no is the only answer needed. Yes or no?