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#1940914 04/27/22 05:07 PM
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Since Draft 2.0 is locked, I am starting Draft 3.0


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Jester #1940915 04/27/22 05:14 PM
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One of our weakest, if not the weakest positions on this team is kicker. The top rated kicker is Cade York LSU.
At what point do you draft him?

I would definitely take him with our 6th round pick if he is available.
I might consider packaging one of our 7th rounders with that 6th rounder to move up to get him.


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Jester #1940917 04/27/22 05:20 PM
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This seems reasonable to me. Would you lump kickers into the mix as BPA? You were suggesting moving up perhaps , so you feel a real need for this.


"Every responsibility implies opportunity, and every opportunity implies responsibility." Otis Allen Glazebrook, 1880
Jester #1940918 04/27/22 05:20 PM
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Never draft a kicker, unless you "have" to draft a kicker. frown


Can Deshaun Watson play better for the Browns, than Baker Mayfield would have? ... Now the Games count.
Jester #1940919 04/27/22 05:21 PM
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He might go in the 5th round. I'd use a 4th rounder. We won't be drafting starters in the 4th round so just do it. He would be the starter.


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Jester #1940924 04/27/22 05:31 PM
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Depodesta is labeled the chief strategy officer, (or at one time he was.)

No course of action the Browns have taken, since the day Depo was announced as, whatever, has seemed in conjunction, or a continuation of a developmental course leading to an end or a blossoming betterment of the situation than before from a previous point the Browns were at in the time frame that Depo was given the label of Chief Strategy officer,
which leads me to conclude, that from the time Depo arrived, the Browns, have had no consistent strategy that could be defended in any way,
unless of course, the constant change of course with the wind, remodeling every 13th month, chasing the shiny object of a big decision
like Scott Bakula on the tv show Quantum Leap, hoping with every decision, the next leap, will be the leap home.
Hazaah! Let's Go Browns!


Can Deshaun Watson play better for the Browns, than Baker Mayfield would have? ... Now the Games count.
Bard Dawg #1940997 04/28/22 04:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Bard Dawg
This seems reasonable to me. Would you lump kickers into the mix as BPA? You were suggesting moving up perhaps , so you feel a real need for this.


I don't see why you wouldn't lump kickers into BPA.

I do feel strongly that Kicker is a real need for us. Our current kickers stink at best.

I also feel the kicker position is very important. 1st, other than kick-off, every play they are involved in is a scoring play. 2nd, Many of those directly determine the outcome of the game based on if they do or don't make the late game Fg. 3rd, missed extra points a momentum killers. You drive down the field, score TD and make the extra point and you are up 7 and feeling good. Drive all the way down the field, score a TD and then miss the XP and everyone is deflated. All the momentum is gone. 4th, when you miss an XP, it just feels like all game you are chasing after that point. The other team scores and you are down 7-6. YOu kick a FG and now you are up 9-0 instead of 10-0 so instead of needing 2 TD to win or a TD&FG to tie, a TD&FG then wins it for the other team.


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Jester #1940999 04/28/22 05:06 AM
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When you are drafting a kicker, you have a very good chance the guy is going to be your starter day 1. Why some feel you should get those guys in FA is beyond me. I don't have a problem using a pick on a kicker. I don't have a problem using a pick on a punter or long snapper.

I'd draft both York and Ariza this year back to back unless there was somebody else who just jumped off the board. Who in here is satisfied with a weak kicking game? Who thinks it doesn't matter?


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I have long believed kickers are undervalued. Look at that rookie kicker for the Bengals did down the stretch and in the playoffs last year. The trouble is that there have been a lot of successful college kickers who flopped in the pros and vice versa. Hell, some flip flop back and forth while they are in the NFL. Hard to predict.

Jester #1941012 04/28/22 08:30 AM
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j/c

I couldnt possibly watch our kickers of the past 3-4 years and think we DIDNT have a problem there. It’s a huge issue for us to not trust a guy from outside 40 yards.

Upgrade the position, whether it’s this weekend or FA


"First down inside the 10. A score here will put us in the Super Bowl. Cooper is far to the left as Njoku settles into the slot. Moore is flanked out wide to the right. Chubb and Ford are split in the backfield as Watson takes the snap ... Here we go."
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What always happens at the draft?

Some team will make a pick and everyone will go What? Who?

Then there will be a player that many will pass on and then everyone will wonder how did teams pass on this guy?

There will be duds and there will be HOF'ers.

I have only looked at a few positions. Wide receivers, Edge, DL and even though the Browns are not in the QB market. I always look at the top five. This year I did not look that hard at qb but I did watch some.

Hutchinson looks good. Not Myles good but damn good.

The guy who jumps off the screen to me is Thibideaux. I don't pay much attention to "rumors and gossip" type noise because I have no way to qualify that stuff. When I watch his game tape; I go wow. This dude has some serious get off. He is super quick and explosive. It doesn't take much to see that. Looks pretty obvious. I have listened to him being interviewed. Seems like a bright guy who is confident in his ability. He should be. He blows past people.

IMO football is not as complicated as some try to make it. RAS and measureables can show you athletic qualities, but they don't show how a guy plays. Kyle Hamilton ran a 4.59. He is a 6'4" 220lb safety. I don't care about his 40 time. Safety's are in motion post snap. Watch the tape on this guy. He might be the best player in this draft. Dude can ball.

Measureables don't tell about nasty attitude and how hard a hustles on each play. You have to want to hit. You also have to have instincts to play well. Your 40 time doesn't help if you are slow to react. Schwartz's speed doesn't mean he knows how to get open. Good football players know how to play.

When this draft is over some GM's who make big money to make these draft selections will end looking bad. And if it happens in two drafts; they may never be a GM again. Guys like Mike Tannebomb.

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Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
I have long believed kickers are undervalued. Look at that rookie kicker for the Bengals did down the stretch and in the playoffs last year. The trouble is that there have been a lot of successful college kickers who flopped in the pros and vice versa. Hell, some flip flop back and forth while they are in the NFL. Hard to predict.

I agree. Then again not many get drafted, so it's easier to point out the guys who flopped. I also think that teams don't really scout kickers the way they scout other positions, or maybe I should say as deeply. They also don't value the position as much. They say they do, but they don't.

First they feel they are dealing with undrafted players who are a dime a dozen. They seem to make kickers feel that if they miss a kick they get cut. QB's don't feel that if they throw a incompletion. My feeling is if you invested picks in a kicker, that helps build confidence in the guy. Kickers know they need to make kicks, but feeling like you will be cut with every miss doesn't help the kicker.


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Jester #1941027 04/28/22 10:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Jester
Originally Posted by Bard Dawg
This seems reasonable to me. Would you lump kickers into the mix as BPA? You were suggesting moving up perhaps , so you feel a real need for this.


I don't see why you wouldn't lump kickers into BPA.

So, hypothetically speaking, you'd be ok taking a kicker with a 1st rounder if that's how pure BPA shook out?


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oobernoober #1941036 04/28/22 10:31 AM
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Originally Posted by oobernoober
Originally Posted by Jester
Originally Posted by Bard Dawg
This seems reasonable to me. Would you lump kickers into the mix as BPA? You were suggesting moving up perhaps , so you feel a real need for this.


I don't see why you wouldn't lump kickers into BPA.

So, hypothetically speaking, you'd be ok taking a kicker with a 1st rounder if that's how pure BPA shook out?

Sebastian Janikowski.


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I was actually thinking about the Aguayo guy that was drafted by TB, but I was mistaken (he was selected late in the 2nd on a trade-up). But fair enough.... the Janikowski pick, as good as it was, was a decade (?) ago.


There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.

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oobernoober #1941057 04/28/22 11:08 AM
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It was over two decades ago and that is because it was a 1st round pick that played for 18 consecutive years (injured for the 18th year) for the same team that drafted him at a position of higher than average turnover.

That, to me, is a really solid first round investment.


Browns is the Browns

... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.

oobernoober #1941082 04/28/22 11:45 AM
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Not sure what you mean by "pure BPA".
Position value and need always get incorporated, even if just subconsciously.
Also, the draft isn't just pick the best player available, there is more strategy than that.

If I have player 1 rated a little higher than player 2 at a different position but the there are 10 players at player 1's position that are nearly equal while the next best player at player 2's position stinks and you need both positions then you take player 2 if they are rated nearly the same but not if player 1 is significantly better. Also, you judge when a player will be taken by other teams. Perhaps a team really like a player but doesn't think other teams will take him before the 3rd round, in which case you don't draft him in round 1. Yes you risk losing him so you need to be right. OR if you think a team ahead of you will take the guy you like, then you trade up ahead of them.

But I would not have an issue with taking a kicker in the 1st round but you need to be right. Like Justin Tucker right. Though I feel that way about any position in round 1 but more so with positions that are not valued highly like K, Lb, C, Rb. You can get hall of fame talent at those positions outside the 1st round because as a general rule, teams don't value those positions as highly.


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I think where a disagreement between fans often happens surrounds position value. Often times fans think that BPA is based strictly by on field performances by players regardless of position. Others, such as myself believe more goes into BPA on NFL draft boards. And maybe not all NFL draft boards. Some positions it's far more rare to find top tier talent at those positions. QB's, LT's, DE's and CB's come to mind. I call those the premium positions. They are also some of the most expensive positions to sign in the FA market and extend the contracts of.

Usually you will see more of these positions drafted early if the talent is there in a draft to justify it. I also believe with the rarity of talent at these positions and the cost to obtain them, their positions are elevated on draft boards. At some point a better player at a different position and team needs come into play as well. Just look at our past two drafts. In 2020 most understood how badly we needed a LT. They also knew we needed secondary help. Wills and Delpit were our first two picks. Were they actually the best players available? Or was it a combination of them being amongst the top five rated picks remaining on the board combined with need?

In 2021 it was Newsome and JOK. I'm no expert by any means but to me JOK was hands down the best player remaining on the board and had been for more than a few picks. At #26 Newsome was a steal as well. But as you can see in both years they used our first round pick to address what I call a premium position. So do I think that a players position influences his BPA on a draft board? Yes. Do I think team needs plays a part as well? Yes.

So no, to me a kicker would never enter into a first round pick conversation based on the value of the position alone. But where I think a kicker does enter into the conversation is much as Peen describes it. Late third and fourth rounds. At that point in the draft your odds of drafting a starter are slim. If there is clearly a superior kicker on the board I think the odds swing in your favor of making a kicker a legitimate choice at that juncture.

As examples.....

KC isn't going to select a QB in round 1 even if he is the highest rated player on their board.

The Browns just extended Ward and with the depth at the CB position it would be hard to imagine they would draft a CB in the first round even if he were the top rated player on the board.

If any team has a LT they felt was great at his job or just extended him long term it would be difficult to imagine they would spend their first round pick on a LT.

Are there exceptions to that rule? Certainly. But those are the exceptions, not the rule.

The value of any draft pick will vary from team to team according to the circumstances.


Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.

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Bunch of guys in their twenties who will make over a million dollars a year in their first job out of school.

Imagine that. Most of them will be out of football by 30. If they play their cards right; set for life.

I get a kick out of the draft. It lets everyone play GM for a day. Everybody makes a mock draft. Most of them are guesses based upon other peoples guess.

Free agency is not over. Some teams will be cutting players after the draft; and some cuts after June 1st.

I wonder what our roster will be July 1.

I am at peace with the this draft. I have full confidence in Berry. Andrew and his staff are fully prepared. We will get some good players.


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Agree with them or not, I have no doubt this front office will be completely prepared going into the draft tonight. I completely doubted that with Farmer. I firmly believe that Farmer and the Browns were planning on drafting Mike Evans in the 2014 draft. But when TB took him one pick ahead of us, we weren't ready, so we panicked and picked Justin Gilbert because we weren't prepared and didn't have a contingency plan.


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So it seems like we know who the first two picks are at this point. The Jaguars are going to take Walker and the Lions will take Hutchinson.

The Texans are a wildcard at the third pick for two reasons. They are stupid and they need everything. I’d guess they take a corner.

I think the Jets, who also need everything, just take whoever they have at the top of their board.

The Giants are no longer fun because Gettleman is gone. I think they draft an offensive linemen.

Carolina has the potential to go full stupid and take a QB at six but I think they’ll try to trade down. If they don’t trade down I’d guess they take an offensive linemen.

If I were the Giants I’d try to trade down from this spot. If they don’t they will probably take a corner.

The Falcons are another huge wildcard. They can take basically any position and have it be an upgrade. I think this is where the first receiver goes. Or Malik Willis.

Seahawks take Thibodeaux or trade down.

Jets take the second receiver here.

Commanders take Kyle Hamilton.

After that pick it starts to get extra messy.

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I am pre devastated about us not taking the Punt God.

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Originally Posted by cfrs15
So it seems like we know who the first two picks are at this point. The Jaguars are going to take Walker and the Lions will take Hutchinson.

The Texans are a wildcard at the third pick for two reasons. They are stupid and they need everything. I’d guess they take a corner.

I think the Jets, who also need everything, just take whoever they have at the top of their board.

The Giants are no longer fun because Gettleman is gone. I think they draft an offensive linemen.

Carolina has the potential to go full stupid and take a QB at six but I think they’ll try to trade down. If they don’t trade down I’d guess they take an offensive linemen.

If I were the Giants I’d try to trade down from this spot. If they don’t they will probably take a corner.

The Falcons are another huge wildcard. They can take basically any position and have it be an upgrade. I think this is where the first receiver goes. Or Malik Willis.

Seahawks take Thibodeaux or trade down.

Jets take the second receiver here.

Commanders take Kyle Hamilton.

After that pick it starts to get extra messy.

I think those are reasonable predictions. I think the first two spot on.

I think the Jets take a WR and a corner at 4 and 10. Not sure of the order.

Giants should take one of the top 2 OTs at this spot. Not sure if they prefer the guy from 'Bama or the one from NC State.

The Panthers would be wise to trade down and acquire more picks.

I really have no idea what the Giants will do here. Things have been quiet there. This guy is no Gettleman.

Falcons take a WR or maybe Malik?

Agree on Thibodeaux for Seahawks.

Lot's of good players for Washington. One of the top 2 corners should be available. I hear they want a receiver to pair w/Scary Terry.

I'll add that there is a possibility that seven WRs go in the first round.

My biggest question is Hamilton. He's a very good player, but I'm not sure where he is a match?

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Atlanta would be parting in the streets if they get their home town hero, Malik Willis @8.


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I should add that I have never attempted a mock draft in my life. I'm too anal to have one surprise pick throw the entire draft into a tizzy. I used to make "Big Boards." That's more logical in my way of thinking.

I think it will be interesting to see if Gardner or Stingley is the first corner off the board. Likewise w/Garrett and London. Same w/the two OTs. Thibodeaux has quite a bit of range. I wonder how NFL teams rate him? I think a guy like Karlaftis could fall quite a bit from his early-season rankings. The RB from Iowa State is a very good player, but we know the story of how RBs are perceived.

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Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
I should add that I have never attempted a mock draft in my life. I'm too anal to have one surprise pick throw the entire draft into a tizzy. I used to make "Big Boards." That's more logical in my way of thinking.

I think it will be interesting to see if Gardner or Stingley is the first corner off the board. Likewise w/Garrett and London. Same w/the two OTs. Thibodeaux has quite a bit of range. I wonder how NFL teams rate him? I think a guy like Karlaftis could fall quite a bit from his early-season rankings. The RB from Iowa State is a very good player, but we know the story of how RBs are perceived.

LOL ....yes, every mock draft gets slaughtered year in and year out, because there is just so many variables, and now you add a deep Draft of red chip propsect w/o any true blue chip, slam dunk talents and now you have a perfect strom (which we are merely observing the first night) which should give us plenty to talk about.


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Originally Posted by cfrs15
So it seems like we know who the first two picks are at this point. The Jaguars are going to take Walker and the Lions will take Hutchinson.

The Texans are a wildcard at the third pick for two reasons. They are stupid and they need everything. I’d guess they take a corner.

I've got two bets on the first 3 picks:

1) Walker
2) Hutchinson
3) Stingley

Got it at +225 and is the Vegas favorite for the first three picks.

Also went with

1) Walker
2) Hutchinson
3) Gardner

Have that one at +800. Go Gardner!


At 4, I think the Jets take either Stingley or Gardner. Whichever one the Texans do not take.

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Texans take Neal at #3 - IMO.

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Originally Posted by Milk Man
Originally Posted by cfrs15
So it seems like we know who the first two picks are at this point. The Jaguars are going to take Walker and the Lions will take Hutchinson.

The Texans are a wildcard at the third pick for two reasons. They are stupid and they need everything. I’d guess they take a corner.

I've got two bets on the first 3 picks:

1) Walker
2) Hutchinson
3) Stingley

Got it at +225 and is the Vegas favorite for the first three picks.

Also went with

1) Walker
2) Hutchinson
3) Gardner

Have that one at +800. Go Gardner!


At 4, I think the Jets take either Stingley or Gardner. Whichever one the Texans do not take.

Looks good.


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Originally Posted by Jester
Not sure what you mean by "pure BPA".
Position value and need always get incorporated, even if just subconsciously.
Also, the draft isn't just pick the best player available, there is more strategy than that.

If I have player 1 rated a little higher than player 2 at a different position but the there are 10 players at player 1's position that are nearly equal while the next best player at player 2's position stinks and you need both positions then you take player 2 if they are rated nearly the same but not if player 1 is significantly better. Also, you judge when a player will be taken by other teams.
That goes down the road to bad drafts, I learned this, at 3-4 years old.

You can't over think a draft or you end up with bad drafts, We used to draft our matchbox cars every day, and you had to assemble a team of matchbox cars that could do different things, and we would, almost every day, maybe twice a day. So One thing was certain, that if you see something TAKE IT!!!, when you see something, and hope to get it later, BLAM you are squat out of luck, it happens every time, you watch another take your car, your car, the car you were going to take, your guy, your player, the player you were going to take,
and, the waters get thin, the resources become scarce FAST.

That's why the only way to draft is Best player available, get your needs met EARLY, in the positions you need.
One Can't be a good drafter, if they are trying to, be considerate of if the pick looks valueable or not, NO, that's not how it works,
how it works is,
IS the PLAYER, a good player and one you want, because in the near future, that's what you will be stuck with.

I just HOPE, the Browns, with every pick/selection they make, can find award winners and all conference players, Sure! BUT!
MORESO,
I just HOPE, they find PLAYERS, that ... (beyond the dancers, and prima-donas and showboating) which shouldn't come until they put a full days work in on gameday) They Find Players That,
have Shown, they are not adverse, to putting in a full days work on a football field on gamedays.

Look at the UDFA charlotte Rb from the Browns from 2020, He didn't play, because of injury, but he had 5000 college rushing yards. I doubt anybody gets to 5000 college rushing yards, ANYWHERE, even in any obscure university, unless they show a willingness to put in a full days work on the football field on gameday. (getting to 5000 yards shows, you had to learn how to put in a tough day, somewhere along the line)

In the end you are selecting these guys to play football, on the football field, on gameday, and a full days game.
Nothing else should matter,
Nothing about image, or community involvement, the Main thing is to play Football, on the Football field, on gamedays, and a Full Days Work with Full Effort.


Can Deshaun Watson play better for the Browns, than Baker Mayfield would have? ... Now the Games count.
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Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
I should add that I have never attempted a mock draft in my life.

Well your life is not over yet, you should attempt a mock draft today, and see how the process goes.
And, I'm pretty sure one single pick does not have the power to throw an entire draft into a tizzy, that is the beauty of the process, the process proves the value and it dispels misconceptions, even when people reach, because getting what you valued, early, is a feeling like no other. Missing out, because of waiting, is also a feeling like no other.


Can Deshaun Watson play better for the Browns, than Baker Mayfield would have? ... Now the Games count.
THROW LONG #1941256 04/28/22 06:52 PM
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Berry is quite the outlier......again.


Milk Man #1941277 04/28/22 08:27 PM
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🤑

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cfrs15 #1941278 04/28/22 08:28 PM
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Three for three

Milk Man #1941279 04/28/22 08:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Milk Man
Originally Posted by cfrs15
So it seems like we know who the first two picks are at this point. The Jaguars are going to take Walker and the Lions will take Hutchinson.

The Texans are a wildcard at the third pick for two reasons. They are stupid and they need everything. I’d guess they take a corner.

I've got two bets on the first 3 picks:

1) Walker
2) Hutchinson
3) Stingley

Got it at +225 and is the Vegas favorite for the first three picks.

Also went with

1) Walker
2) Hutchinson
3) Gardner

Have that one at +800. Go Gardner!


At 4, I think the Jets take either Stingley or Gardner. Whichever one the Texans do not take.

I'm now a billionaire!!!

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Originally Posted by Milk Man
[quote=cfrs15]

I've got two bets on the first 3 picks:

1) Walker
2) Hutchinson
3) Stingley

Got it at +225 and is the Vegas favorite for the first three picks.

Looks like that one paid off, nice bet

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Milk Man #1941283 04/28/22 08:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Milk Man
At 4, I think the Jets take either Stingley or Gardner. Whichever one the Texans do not take.

I should have bet on the #4 pick.

Jester #1941284 04/28/22 08:37 PM
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G-Men Up here goes the first OT Icky Ikwanew

Last edited by PastorMarc; 04/28/22 08:38 PM.

John 3:16 Jesus said "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."
Milk Man #1941286 04/28/22 08:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Milk Man
Originally Posted by Milk Man
Originally Posted by cfrs15
So it seems like we know who the first two picks are at this point. The Jaguars are going to take Walker and the Lions will take Hutchinson.

The Texans are a wildcard at the third pick for two reasons. They are stupid and they need everything. I’d guess they take a corner.

I've got two bets on the first 3 picks:

1) Walker
2) Hutchinson
3) Stingley

Got it at +225 and is the Vegas favorite for the first three picks.

Also went with

1) Walker
2) Hutchinson
3) Gardner

Have that one at +800. Go Gardner!


At 4, I think the Jets take either Stingley or Gardner. Whichever one the Texans do not take.

I'm now a billionaire!!!

Nice hedge with Gardner. That's good money management. Taking profit and open to huge upside. I dig it.


HERE WE GO BROWNIES! HERE WE GO!!
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Jester #1941287 04/28/22 08:43 PM
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Wow took the DE


John 3:16 Jesus said "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."
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