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I believe posting a photo of a fully formed baby with hair, in a discussion about abortion is disingenuous and intended to induce an emotional response.

Most states with legal abortion have a 13-20 week limit. I think closer to 13 it better than closer to 20. But as I said - no-one is talking about trying to legalize 3rd trimester pregnancy's .... and no-one I know is advocating for later then the 'world record' for the baby who has survived at the youngest age.

Last edited by mgh888; 05/06/22 04:12 PM.

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It's been ruled on by the SC. It is settled law. And yet you fight it - so you want me to live by a different standard than you live your life by?


How many times was illegal abortion challenged before Roe V wade passed? My money is on a hell of a lot, but I never looked it up. But I do know the laws on abortion changed in one form or another all the time.


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I believe in telling the truth. Babies at that age have hair, fingers, toes, hearts that beat, etc, etc, etc, Would you have preferred I posted photo's of babies being aborted, or their photos after the abortion?


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Originally Posted by GMdawg
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It's been ruled on by the SC. It is settled law. And yet you fight it - so you want me to live by a different standard than you live your life by?


How many times was illegal abortion challenged before Roe V wade passed? My money is on a hell of a lot, but I never looked it up. But I do know the laws on abortion changed in one form or another all the time.

You might be right - I am no expert. But are you talking about rulings by the Supreme Court?
That have stood for half a Centaury and been used repeatedly as precedent?


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I wish this country would just focus on topics that actually effect us all.
Jobs, homelessness, the mental health crisis, traffic, inflation, roads…. Instead we squabble and waste time on stuff that only effects a small percentage of the population. Gay marriage, abortion, etc.
This country is doomed. On a grander scale so is humanity.
If I’m lucky I’ve only got about 25-35 years left. It’s going to be a long ride I think. It’s like being stuck on a never ending car ride with my crazy racist uncle, a charlatan like Joel Osteen, a screaming child that kicks the back of my seat constantly, while MrMagoo drives us off a cliff ala Thelma and Louise.


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Originally Posted by GMdawg
Originally Posted by mac
jc...

Should men be held responsible for the "fertilized egg" they helped to create..?

While the Radical RW Supreme Justices attempt to make a pregnancy the sole responsibility of the woman by denying women their right to an abortion everyone knows that MEN are 'at least' just as responsible for pregnancies as women.

The Radical RW Justices need to address the issue of 'responsibility' in the case of pregnancy and establish laws that hold the male half of the pregnancy liable for his actions.


Finally you post something I agree with thumbsup

GM...I'm throwing the BS flag...I've never seen you or any of these radical RW Anti's advocate for any kind of legislation that calls for the male half of a pregnancy be held liable for the life he helped to create...NEVER..!

The Radical RWers put a target on the backs of women and expect them to accept all responsibility.

Last edited by mac; 05/06/22 04:59 PM.



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Throw the flag all you want. I have always said the dad should support the child. I also think the dad should have the choice of raising the baby if he wants to keep it and the mother doesn't .


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And before you bring it up i also support paying taxes to help support the children.


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Apparently California is trying to legalize 3rd trimester abortion, and even AFTER birth.

https://www.lifenews.com/2022/04/05...es-bill-that-would-legalize-infanticide/

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Originally Posted by archbolddawg
Apparently California is trying to legalize 3rd trimester abortion, and even AFTER birth.

https://www.lifenews.com/2022/04/05...es-bill-that-would-legalize-infanticide/

Reading your article made me believe there might be an alternative perspective.

https://www.politifact.com/factchec...ia-bill-wouldnt-allow-mothers-kill-thei/


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you boys bout to be on a nasty drought like Lake Powell


“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”

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Originally Posted by GMdawg
Throw the flag all you want. I have always said the dad should support the child. I also think the dad should have the choice of raising the baby if he wants to keep it and the mother doesn't .

If you don't want an abortion, that is fine, don't have one. It is a personal choice.

But if you want to get the government involved in restricting someone else's personal decision, there is a fundamental problem with that.

They may not have share your opinion and they have as much right to their opinion, as you have for yours.

Your views and opinions are yours, not mine or anyone elses.


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Did i say you or anybody else had to agree with my opinion. Hell no i didn't. SOME people agree and others won't just like with you and your opinions.


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Originally Posted by GMdawg
Did i say you or anybody else had to agree with my opinion. Hell no i didn't. SOME people agree and others won't just like with you and your opinions.

GM...you see, as long as you Radical RWers can make the woman fully responsible for that fertilized egg by putting her in jail should see seek an abortion, THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT THE PREFERRED POSITION you radicals are seeking.

Show me the examples where Radical RWers advocate

You don't hear any of the radical rw justices advocate ANY RESPONSIBILITY for the male half of that fertilized egg.
...you don't hear any of these extremist republican law maker in the house or senate say one word about the male half being held responsible for the pregnancy he created...DO YOU..?

Show me one example where the male half is threatened by law and forced to pay for half of every expense accrued...
...prenatal and postnatal for medical expenses as well as all related expenses until the child is on it's own.

If Radical RWers would suggest such laws for the male half, folks might to discuss the anti-abortion viewpoint.

But the facts are 99.9% OF YOU RADICAL RWERS want only the woman be held responsible and not one mention of SHARED RESPONSIBILITY.

Last edited by mac; 05/06/22 09:30 PM.



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Originally Posted by mgh888
Originally Posted by archbolddawg
Apparently California is trying to legalize 3rd trimester abortion, and even AFTER birth.

https://www.lifenews.com/2022/04/05...es-bill-that-would-legalize-infanticide/

Reading your article made me believe there might be an alternative perspective.

https://www.politifact.com/factchec...ia-bill-wouldnt-allow-mothers-kill-thei/

Well, I'm certainly no attorney, but a lot of wording in your link makes..........well, no sense to me.

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I think the headline and premise of your article and what you claimed in your post is faulty. Jmo. I don't believe the law is intended to legalize what you claim... It sounds like maybe there are loop holes that could be argued in a court of law that makes what you said possible, but maybe it could also be argued in a court of law that it was not possible. Idk.

Unless the mothers life is in absolute grave danger I couldn't imagine why legalized late term abortions would be needed. But I'm not an expert and haven't read or studied this.... I did read one woman talking about her child, if born, would be in a state of near constant seizure and not be able to survive. But I didn't dig deep and not sure if her child was born and died or was terminated or simply not sustained once born.


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We can get caught up in all the legal stuff and BS floating around.

In the end it boils down to right and wrong. Killing other humans is wrong. It doesn't matter the stage of life.


If everybody had like minds, we would never learn.

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GM...you see, as long as you Radical RWers can make the woman fully responsible for that fertilized egg by putting her in jail should see seek an abortion, THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT THE PREFERRED POSITION you radicals are seeking.

LMAO Man you swing and miss more than Joey Gallo rofl

Quote
But the facts are 99.9% OF YOU RADICAL RWERS want only the woman be held responsible and not one mention of SHARED RESPONSIBILITY.


just keep swinging and missing Mac.

Last edited by GMdawg; 05/07/22 07:28 AM.

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So where’s the policy being sent forth from your side to punish or hold accountable the male half of the unwanted pregnancy? There is none. But you all are perfectly content forming policy that forces the woman to raise an unwanted kid.
Show me actual written policy or your ‘wish’ to have men held responsible is garbage lip service.
Face it, the men of the GOP don’t give a rats arse if a woman craps out an unwanted baby and has to raise it alone. Imagine loving a baby you’ll never know so much that you want it raised by a mother that didn’t want it. Such love.


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Originally Posted by Ballpeen
We can get caught up in all the legal stuff and BS floating around.

In the end it boils down to right and wrong. Killing other humans is wrong. It doesn't matter the stage of life.

Killing other humans is wrong. An abortion at 12 weeks of an unwanted fetus is not that. But you go with your emotional play - it's all you have while you try to dictate and control what others can and cannot do with their bodies.

As someone on the radio said this week - if it was Man that got pregnant, abortion would be a statutory right without ANY doubt.


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Originally Posted by GMdawg
Quote
GM...you see, as long as you Radical RWers can make the woman fully responsible for that fertilized egg by putting her in jail should see seek an abortion, THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT THE PREFERRED POSITION you radicals are seeking.

LMAO Man you swing and miss more than Joey Gallo rofl

Quote
But the facts are 99.9% OF YOU RADICAL RWERS want only the woman be held responsible and not one mention of SHARED RESPONSIBILITY.


just keep swinging and missing Mac.


GM..you are a great example of the BLAME IT ALL ON THE WOMAN radical RW crowd...

You refuse to take seriously the position of SHARED RESPONSIBILITY FOR AN UNWANTED PREGNANCY and post after post you and your fellow Radicals support the position of BLAME IT ALL ON THE WOMAN.

You treat the subject of Shared Responsibility as A JOKE every time the issue is brought up. You can't argue the merits of a SHARED RESPONSIBILITY position because you have been brain washed to simply "blame it all on the women".

Thankfully, your extreme views are not supported by the majority of Americans.




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For those women that are stuck in GOP land… Amazon has a generic form of Plan B for under $15. It has a multi years long shelf life. Stock up.


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Originally Posted by mgh888
I think the headline and premise of your article and what you claimed in your post is faulty. Jmo. I don't believe the law is intended to legalize what you claim... It sounds like maybe there are loop holes that could be argued in a court of law that makes what you said possible, but maybe it could also be argued in a court of law that it was not possible. Idk.


The original text of the bill said a women would not be held liable or penalized for a perinatal death. That extremely vague. If it's not the intention of the bill then they should word the bill as they intended. This is how we get so many loop holes in our laws. Wicks seemed to be mad when called out on this. It has since been changed to say 'perinatal death due to pregnancy-related cause.' This is why checks and balances is important. If this bill were not allowed to be challenged, murdering a newborn would be legal in California.


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Originally Posted by GMdawg
It's not about politics at all to me. Maybe it is to you. To me it's about slaughtering innocent babies.

I didn't mean it was political to you. I tried to explain that by explaining how politicians use it in political campaigns for votes.

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Your wrong bro. I said thats why I voted for Trump. I also said I would have voted for Tim Ryan if I could in the last election.

Trump is Republican and I think I know you well enough to say there's really not much else that caused you to make that decision.

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Funny I have been saying that since 1973.

And many will feel the same about overturning Roe vs Wade if that in 2022.

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I expect others to do as I do don't kill babies. No more no less, and if you knew me long enough you would know that I have been carrying on about it since 1973.

And others will do just as you have done since 1973 if Roe vs Wade is overturned. Just for different reasons. And that's why I asked you why you would expect anything different from those who disagree with you on the matter?

It's not personal it just seems like you're expecting a double standard from those who disagree with you about abortion rights.


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The text of the bill should be clarified to avoid any ambiguity.


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Originally Posted by mac
Originally Posted by GMdawg
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GM...you see, as long as you Radical RWers can make the woman fully responsible for that fertilized egg by putting her in jail should see seek an abortion, THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT THE PREFERRED POSITION you radicals are seeking.

LMAO Man you swing and miss more than Joey Gallo rofl

Quote
But the facts are 99.9% OF YOU RADICAL RWERS want only the woman be held responsible and not one mention of SHARED RESPONSIBILITY.


just keep swinging and missing Mac.


GM..you are a great example of the BLAME IT ALL ON THE WOMAN radical RW cr0wd

You refuse to take seriously the position of SHARED RESPONSIBILITY FOR AN UNWANTED PREGNANCY and post after post you and your fellow Radicals support the position of BLAME IT ALL ON THE WOMAN.

You treat the subject of Shared Responsibility as A JOKE every time the issue is brought up. You can't argue the merits of a SHARED RESPONSIBILITY position because you have been brain washed to simply "blame it all on the women".

Thankfully, your extreme views are not supported by the majority of Americans.

Now your back to telling fairy tales Mac.

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You refuse to take seriously the position of SHARED RESPONSIBILITY FOR AN UNWANTED PREGNANCY and post after post you and your fellow Radicals support the position of BLAME IT ALL ON THE WOMAN.

Now your just reverting to lies. notallthere

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You treat the subject of Shared Responsibility as A JOKE every time the issue is brought up. You can't argue the merits of a SHARED RESPONSIBILITY position because you have been brain washed to simply "blame it all on the women".

Your going to have to start calling me Jepeto rolleyes


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And many will feel the same about overturning Roe vs Wade if that in 2022.

A lot, and Many of them will hear the same thing from me, that they kept telling me.

Shut up and deal with its the law. That's not a double standard, it's simply treating them as they treated me.


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Originally Posted by PortlandDawg
So where’s the policy being sent forth from your side to punish or hold accountable the male half of the unwanted pregnancy? There is none. But you all are perfectly content forming policy that forces the woman to raise an unwanted kid.
Show me actual written policy or your ‘wish’ to have men held responsible is garbage lip service.
Face it, the men of the GOP don’t give a rats arse if a woman craps out an unwanted baby and has to raise it alone. Imagine loving a baby you’ll never know so much that you want it raised by a mother that didn’t want it. Such love.

Gee when did I become a member of the house or senate? Am I a congressman, or any other type of government employee? If I am I'm going to have to get busy forming more policies.
nanner

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Show me actual written policy or your ‘wish’ to have men held responsible is garbage lip service.

Hang on I'm busy writing laws by myself naughtydevil

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Face it, the men of the GOP don’t give a rats arse if a woman craps out an unwanted baby and has to raise it alone.

IMO some of them do, and some of them don't. But hat has nothing to do with me, as I think men should be held responsible and would vote for that.


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I guess where the miscommunication came form is that I thought you expected them to be quiet about even while you never have been. Maybe that's not what you meant.


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Originally Posted by GMdawg
Did i say you or anybody else had to agree with my opinion. Hell no i didn't. SOME people agree and others won't just like with you and your opinions.

Nope, you didn't But you when you state your position on on the internet, don't expect everyone to agree with it.

You are not going to change anyone's position on the subject. You are just trolling for a response as far as I can tell, and then complaining when you get one.


There will be no playoffs. Can’t play with who we have out there and compounding it with garbage playcalling and worse execution. We don’t have good skill players on offense period. Browns 20 - Bears 17.

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I think it runs much deeper than that. GM and I disagree on whether Roe vs Wade should stand. Knowing him as I do, he's not trolling. It's just an issue he's very passionate about and it's very close to his heart. Perception is a funny thing when all you can see it the printed word. Especially when you don't know the person. I'm not trying to argue with you about it. I just know GM. He is as honest and genuine as anyone can possibly be. And while this part certainly isn't directed towards you, he's certainly not some right wing extremist as I've seen others try and claim in this thread.


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He’s an admitted one policy voter. So he votes to stop abortion. In doing so he also votes to cut the programs that support those kids born into bad situations. If he actually cared about babies as much as he drones on about he wouldn’t be a GOP voter.


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jc

I don't believe in your religion. I believe in you right to worship. I don't not believe you have the right to force your beliefs on others.

You believe it is murder and you are about saving lives. I consider the life of the mother, the mothers right to choose, AND I DO NOT THINK SCRAPING CELLS EVEN WITH A HEART BEAT IS MURDER.

So all your holier than though BS about killing babies is wasted, because they are not babies, they are part of the mother until born. But I digress, setting the limit to viability was more than a fair compromise. Republicans are not the boss of me, never will be. Yep, that's my stance. CHOICE or NO CHOICE... Choice is the only answer. Unless we can start forcing things on and into people bodies, maybe we should start with vaccines mandates and vasectomies at 13. Then we could see how the party of GOD reacts.

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jc

I have never seen an unborn baby take a breath, but I have seen the lives of many unwanted children, and it is a horrible existence that may actually be better NOT LIVED. But most of the GOP has no clue about those kids or what they go through, because, well they are born and are somebody else's burden, like the women you plan to force birth on. And you will criminalize and torture these women and doctors with jail or worse, all while voting to make sure there is little to no help for these families and kids to thrive. Party of small minds and ED. Christofascism. American Taliban. Shameful. Sad. ludicrous.

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Children from unwanted pregnancies

Abstract

The health and development of 220 children born of unwanted pregnancies (UP) was investigated in a case-control study 9 years after their births. The analysis was based partly on data from health records and school reports, and partly on direct examination of the child and parents by a team of professionals using psychological tests, sociograms, rating scales, questionnaires, structured interviews and medical examinations.

Although differences between wanted and control children were not dramatic, they were consistent and multiple and tend to support the major hypothesis that the development of children born of unwanted pregnancies would be more problem prone. A child born from an unwanted pregnancy, especially a boy, is more likely to have deficiencies in psychosocial development and educational achievement than other children his own age, despite equivalent health status at birth.

The mothers of unwanted children, compared with mothers who accepted their pregnancy (AP children), despite having the same level of education and socioeconomic background, show less stability in their marital lives, poorer interaction with their husbands, a higher abortion rate before and after the birth of the unwanted child, less involvement in the upbringing of the child, and somewhat poorer interaction with their social environments. Nevertheless the majority of the mothers studied seem to have gradually changed from an originally strongly negative attitude toward the pregnancy to an accepting attitude toward the child.

A Maladaptation Score (MS) was developed as an overall measure of the social status of the child within the family and society. Differences between UP and AP children, which were not so definitive when viewed in terms of individual indicators, came into sharper focus when the cumulative effects of negative factors were noted. The MS findings confirmed more concretely that children born from unwanted pregnancies are more often in an unfavorable social situation and at greater future risk.

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1600-0447.1978.tb06875.x


[img]https://www.jstor.org/page-scan-delivery/get-page-scan/2676350/0[/img]

https://www.jstor.org/stable/2676350


Many study topics about unwanted children pregnancies and effects: https://scholar.google.com/scholar?...mp;as_sdt=0&as_vis=1&oi=scholart

[img]https://www.jstor.org/page-scan-delivery/get-page-scan/2136174/0[/img]

https://www.jstor.org/stable/2136174


Born unwanted: Mental health costs and consequences.

David, H. P. (2011). Born unwanted: Mental health costs and consequences. American Journal of Orthopsychiatry, 81(2), 184–192. https://doi.org/10.1111/j.1939-0025.2011.01087.x
Grounded in the concepts of intendedness and wantedness and research on children born to women denied abortion, this article focuses on the Prague Study, which followed the development and mental well‐being over 35 years of 220 children born between 1961 and 1963 in Prague, Czech Republic, to women twice denied abortion for the same unwanted pregnancy. Children were individually pair‐matched at age 9 with 220 children born from accepted pregnancies. Five follow‐up waves were conducted at ages 9, 14–16, 21–23, 28–31, and 32–35 years. A substudy was also conducted of married unwanted pregnancy and accepted pregnancy participants at ages 26–28 years. To control for potential confounding factors, the study included all siblings of all subjects in the last 2 waves. Differences in psychosocial development widened over time but lessened around age 30. All the differences were consistently in disfavor of the unwanted pregnancy participants, especially for only children (no siblings). They became psychiatric patients more frequently than the accepted pregnancy controls and also more often than their siblings. In the aggregate, denial of abortion for unwanted pregnancies entails an increased risk for negative psychosocial development and mental well‐being in adulthood. Implications for public health policy are discussed. (APA PsycInfo Database Record (c) 2016 APA, all rights reserved)


https://psycnet.apa.org/doiLanding?doi=10.1111%2Fj.1939-0025.2011.01087.x



More studies on the consequences of unwanted births: https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C36&as_vis=1&q=unwanted+children+consequences&oq=Unwanted+children


Lessons from Before Roe: Will Past be Prologue?

With an administration deeply opposed to abortion, a Congress poised to pass legislation aimed at weakening the principles underlying Roe v. Wade and a Supreme Court whose composition is considered likely to change in the near future, it is instructive to look back at the choices available—and not available—to women before abortion was made legal nationwide. The toll the nation's abortion laws took on women's lives and health in the years before Roe was substantial. Although the world may not be the same as it was three decades ago, Roe's reversal would likely herald the return to a two-tier system in which safe abortion was available to some Americans but out of reach of many in need.
The Supreme Court did not "invent" legal abortion, much less abortion itself, when it handed down its historic Roe v. Wade decision in 1973. Abortion, both legal and illegal, had long been part of life in America. Indeed, the legal status of abortion has passed through several distinct phases in American history. Generally permitted at the nation's founding and for several decades thereafter, the procedure was made illegal under most circumstances in most states beginning in the mid-1800s. In the 1960s, states began reforming their strict antiabortion laws, so that when the Supreme Court made abortion legal nationwide, legal abortions were already available in 17 states under a range of circumstances beyond those necessary to save a woman's life (see box).

But regardless of the legal status of abortion, its fundamental underlying cause—unintended pregnancy—has been a continuing reality for American women. In the 1960s, researchers from Princeton University estimated that almost one in three Americans (32%) who wanted no more children were likely to have at least one unintended pregnancy before the end of their childbearing years; more than six in 10 Americans (62%) wanting children at some point in the future were likely to have experienced at least one unintended pregnancy.

While the problem of unintended pregnancy spanned all strata of society, the choices available to women varied before Roe. At best, these choices could be demeaning and humiliating, and at worst, they could lead to injury and death. Women with financial means had some, albeit very limited, recourse to a legal abortion; less affluent women, who disproportionately were young and members of minority groups, had few options aside from a dangerous illegal procedure.

ILLEGAL ABORTIONS WERE COMMON

Estimates of the number of illegal abortions in the 1950s and 1960s ranged from 200,000 to 1.2 million per year. One analysis, extrapolating from data from North Carolina, concluded that an estimated 829,000 illegal or self-induced abortions occurred in 1967.

One stark indication of the prevalence of illegal abortion was the death toll. In 1930, abortion was listed as the official cause of death for almost 2,700 women—nearly one-fifth (18%) of maternal deaths recorded in that year. The death toll had declined to just under 1,700 by 1940, and to just over 300 by 1950 (most likely because of the introduction of antibiotics in the 1940s, which permitted more effective treatment of the infections that frequently developed after illegal abortion). By 1965, the number of deaths due to illegal abortion had fallen to just under 200, but illegal abortion still accounted for 17% of all deaths attributed to pregnancy and childbirth that year. And these are just the number that were officially reported; the actual number was likely much higher.

Poor women and their families were disproportionately impacted. A study of low-income women in New York City in the 1960s found that almost one in 10 (8%) had ever attempted to terminate a pregnancy by illegal abortion; almost four in 10 (38%) said that a friend, relative or acquaintance had attempted to obtain an abortion. Of the low-income women in that study who said they had had an abortion, eight in 10 (77%) said that they had attempted a self-induced procedure, with only 2% saying that a physician had been involved in any way.

These women paid a steep price for illegal procedures. In 1962 alone, nearly 1,600 women were admitted to Harlem Hospital Center in New York City for incomplete abortions, which was one abortion-related hospital admission for every 42 deliveries at that hospital that year. In 1968, the University of Southern California Los Angeles County Medical Center, another large public facility serving primarily indigent patients, admitted 701 women with septic abortions, one admission for every 14 deliveries.

A clear racial disparity is evident in the data of mortality because of illegal abortion: In New York City in the early 1960s, one in four childbirth-related deaths among white women was due to abortion; in comparison, abortion accounted for one in two childbirth-related deaths among nonwhite and Puerto Rican women.

Even in the early 1970s, when abortion was legal in some states, a legal abortion was simply out of reach for many. Minority women suffered the most: The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention estimates that in 1972 alone, 130,000 women obtained illegal or self-induced procedures, 39 of whom died. Furthermore, from 1972 to 1974, the mortality rate due to illegal abortion for nonwhite women was 12 times that for white women.

NAVIGATING THE SYSTEM

Although legal abortions were largely unavailable until the years just before Roe, some women were always able to obtain the necessary approval for an abortion under the requirements of their state law. In most states, until just before 1973, this meant demonstrating that a woman's life would be endangered if she carried her pregnancy to term. In some states, especially between 1967 and 1973, a woman also could receive approval for an abortion if it were deemed necessary to protect her physical or mental health, or if the pregnancy had resulted from rape or incest.

Even so, the process to obtain approval for a legal abortion could be arduous. In many states, it involved securing the approval of a standing hospital committee established specifically to review abortion requests. Either as a matter of state law or hospital policy, these committees frequently required that additional physicians examine the woman to corroborate her own physician's finding that an abortion was necessary to protect her life or physical health. Likewise, a licensed psychiatrist might be required to second the judgment of a woman's doctor that an abortion was necessary on mental health grounds, or a law enforcement officer might be required to certify that the woman had reported being sexually assaulted.

Contemporaneous accounts noted that a woman's ability to navigate this process successfully generally required having a long-standing relationship with a physician. In practice, this meant that the option was only available to those who were able to pay for the review process, in addition to the procedure itself. One study of the 2,775 so-called therapeutic abortions at private, not-for-profit hospitals in New York City between 1951 and 1962 found that 88% were to patients of private physicians, rather than ward patients served by the hospital staff. The abortion to live-birth ratio for white women was five times that of nonwhite women, and 26 times that of Puerto Rican women.

LONG-DISTANCE TRAVEL

In the late 1960s, an alternative to obtaining committee approval emerged for women seeking a legal abortion, but once again, only for those with considerable financial resources. In 1967, England liberalized its abortion law to permit any woman to have an abortion with the written consent of two physicians. More than 600 American women made the trip to the United Kingdom during the last three months of 1969 alone; by 1970, package deals (including round-trip airfare, passports, vaccination, transportation to and from the airport and lodging and meals for four days, in addition to the procedure itself) were advertised in the popular media.

Beginning in 1970, four states—Alaska, Hawaii, New York and Washington—also repealed their antiabortion statutes, and generally allowed licensed physicians to perform abortions on request before fetal viability. Alaska, Hawaii and Washington required a woman seeking an abortion to be a resident of the state for at least 30 days prior to the procedure; New York did not include a residency requirement, which put it on the map as an option for the affluent.

The year before the Supreme Court's decision in Roe v. Wade, just over 100,000 women left their own state to obtain a legal abortion in New York City. According to an analysis by The Alan Guttmacher Institute, an estimated 50,000 women traveled more than 500 miles to obtain a legal abortion in New York City; nearly 7,000 women traveled more than 1,000 miles, and some 250 traveled more than 2,000 miles, from places as far as Arizona, Idaho and Nevada.

Data from the New York City Department of Health confirm that this option, as difficult as it was, was really only available to the small proportion of women who were able to pay for the procedure plus the expense of travel and lodging. (Nonresidents were not eligible for either Medicaid-covered care in New York or care from the state's public hospitals.) While eight in 10 nonresidents obtaining abortions in the city between July 1971 and July 1972 were white, seven in 10 city residents who underwent the procedure during that time were nonwhite.

A serious consequence of having to travel long distances to obtain an abortion was the resulting delay in having the procedure performed, which could raise the risk of complications for the woman. No more than 10% of New York City residents who had an abortion in the city in 1972 did so after the 12th week of pregnancy; in contrast, 23% of women from nonneighboring states who had an abortion in New York City did so after the 12th week.

Moreover, a woman who traveled long distances to obtain an abortion not only had to undergo the rigors of travel shortly after a surgical procedure but also was precluded from continuity in her medical care if she needed follow-up services. By the time a complication occurred, an out-of-state woman might already be home, where she would be unable to receive care from the physician who performed the abortion and, perhaps, from any physician with significant abortion experience.

LEARNING FROM HISTORY

By making abortion legal nationwide, Roe v. Wade has had a dramatic impact on the health and well-being of American women. Deaths from abortion have plummeted, and are now a rarity (see chart). In addition, women have been able to have abortions earlier in pregnancy when the procedure is safest: The proportion of abortions obtained early in the first trimester has risen from 20% in 1970 to 56% in 1998 (see chart). These public health accomplishments may now be seriously threatened.


Abortion Mortality
The number of deaths from abortion has declined dramatically since Roe v. Wade.

[Linked Image from guttmacher.org]
Source: The Alan Guttmacher Institute, Trends in Abortion in the United States, 1973-2000, January 2003.

Supporters of legal abortion face the bleakest political landscape in recent history. Congress is poised to pass legislation criminalizing some abortion procedures (termed "partial-birth" abortion) even when they are performed prior to fetal viability and when they are deemed by the physician to be in the best interest of the woman's health; by doing so, the Partial-Birth Abortion Ban Act takes direct aim at the basic principles underlying Roe. In the likely event the measure is passed, signed by the president and then challenged, its fate will be decided by a Supreme Court whose balance may have been tipped by the most doggedly antiabortion administration in history. In short, it is more possible than at any time in the past 30 years that the legal status of abortion is about to undergo a major change.


Early Abortions
Since Roe v. Wade, a greater proportion of women who have an abortion have done so early in pregnancy.


[Linked Image from guttmacher.org]
Source: Trends in Abortion in the United States, 1973-2000 and Abortion and Women's Health.

Should the Supreme Court overturn Roe and return the fundamental question of abortion's legality to the states, NARAL Pro-Choice America estimates that abortion could be made illegal in 17 states. In that light, the years before Roe offer something of a cautionary tale. Granted, it is by no means a given that the precise dimensions of the public health situation that existed before 1973 would reappear. However, it must be considered extremely likely that such an overhaul of U.S. abortion jurisprudence would lead to the reestablishment of a two-tiered system in which options available to a woman confronting an unintended pregnancy would be largely determined by her socioeconomic status. Such a system has proved to be deleterious to the health of women, especially those who are disadvantaged, and is something that many had hoped would have been long consigned to the history books.

LEGAL STATUS OF ABORTION THROUGHOUT AMERICAN HISTORY

Legal abortion has been part of American life for much of the nation's history. Under English common law, the cornerstone of American jurisprudence, abortions performed prior to "quickening" (the first perceptible fetal movement, which usually occurs after the fourth month of pregnancy) were not criminal offenses. With no state enacting specific legislation during nearly the first third of the nation's history, this traditional principle prevailed. The medical literature of the day, both popular and professional, included frequent references to methods of abortion.

In the mid-1800s, Massachusetts enacted the first state law making abortion or attempted abortion at any point in pregnancy a criminal offense. By the turn of the century, almost all states had followed suit. In the early 1960s, only Pennsylvania prohibited all abortions, but 44 other states only allowed abortion when the woman's life would be endangered if she carried the pregnancy to term. Alabama, Colorado, New Mexico, Massachusetts and the District of Columbia permitted abortion if the life or physical health of the woman was in jeopardy; Mississippi allowed abortions in case of life endangerment or rape.

Violating these laws could have serious legal consequences, not only for the provider but potentially for others as well. In nine states, the laws considered it a criminal offense to aid, assist, abet or counsel a woman in obtaining an illegal abortion. Fourteen states explicitly made obtaining an abortion, as well as performing one, a crime. Women were rarely convicted for having an abortion; instead, the threat of prosecution often was used to encourage them to testify against the provider.

One of the first national calls for a change in abortion law came in 1962 from the American Law Institute (ALI)—a prestigious panel of lawyers, scholars and jurists that develops model statutes on a range of topics—with the publication of its "Model Penal Code on Abortion," which called for abortion to be legal when the pregnant woman's life or health would be at risk if the pregnancy were carried to term, when the pregnancy resulted from rape or incest, or when the fetus had a severe defect.

In 1967, Colorado became the first state to reform its abortion law based on the ALI recommendation. The new Colorado statute permitted abortions if the pregnant woman's life or physical or mental health were endangered, if the fetus would be born with a severe physical or mental defect, or if the pregnancy had resulted from rape or incest. Other states began to follow suit, and by 1972, 13 states had so-called ALI statutes. Meanwhile, four states repealed their antiabortion laws completely, substituting statutes permitting abortions that were judged to be necessary by a woman and her physician (see map). By 1973, when the Supreme Court handed down its decision in Roe, abortion reform legislation had been introduced in all but five states.

State Abortion Laws Before Roe

[Linked Image from guttmacher.org]
Note: Status of state laws in 1972. Source: Rachel Benson Gold, Abortion and Women's Health: A Turning Point for America?, The Alan Guttmacher Institute, New York, 1990.

https://www.guttmacher.org/gpr/2003/03/lessons-roe-will-past-be-prologue

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I think a part of the GOPer issue with abortion is the man not having final say, or any say when the female is single. They want to control what happens when they donate sperm.

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Originally Posted by mgh888
Originally Posted by Ballpeen
We can get caught up in all the legal stuff and BS floating around.

In the end it boils down to right and wrong. Killing other humans is wrong. It doesn't matter the stage of life.

Killing other humans is wrong. An abortion at 12 weeks of an unwanted fetus is not that. But you go with your emotional play - it's all you have while you try to dictate and control what others can and cannot do with their bodies.

As someone on the radio said this week - if it was Man that got pregnant, abortion would be a statutory right without ANY doubt.
And you go on pretending what is life and what isn't. It really isn't an emotional play. Sometimes facts hurt.


If everybody had like minds, we would never learn.

GM Strong




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Originally Posted by PitDAWG
I guess where the miscommunication came form is that I thought you expected them to be quiet about even while you never have been. Maybe that's not what you meant.

Your correct bro. That's not what I meant. I don't expect anybody to be quiet. All of us have our own opinions and are entitled to share them as often as we like thumbsup


I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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Originally Posted by WooferDawg
Originally Posted by GMdawg
Did i say you or anybody else had to agree with my opinion. Hell no i didn't. SOME people agree and others won't just like with you and your opinions.

Nope, you didn't But you when you state your position on on the internet, don't expect everyone to agree with it.

You are not going to change anyone's position on the subject. You are just trolling for a response as far as I can tell, and then complaining when you get one.

Not trolling at all buddy. I also don't think I am going to change most peoples minds and folks like Portland and Old cold are never going to change their minds, just like I won't change mine, and thats cool by me. I consider both of them friends, we just disagree on this subject. Now could my posts change somebody's mind.... sure it could.... it's a long shot.... but at least it's a shot. IMO what is way more likely to happen is that others with the same opinions I have may like to know that they are not alone in their opinions. Maybe people who read these boards but who don't post much will speak up either to agree or disagree. That's the whole idea of these boards. To talk, to share our opinions, to agree, to disagree, to learn, to make friends. Well at least it is for me.


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Originally Posted by PortlandDawg
He’s an admitted one policy voter. So he votes to stop abortion. In doing so he also votes to cut the programs that support those kids born into bad situations. If he actually cared about babies as much as he drones on about he wouldn’t be a GOP voter.

Your wrong bro.... I admitted I voted for Trump the first time he ran because I didn't like either candidate I thought they both sucked, but I voted for Trump because of his stance on abortion. So was I a one policy voter ONE time... yep I sure was. Have I ever voted that way before in all the elections I voted in..... NOPE.

Quote
In doing so he also votes to cut the programs that support those kids born into bad situations. If he actually cared about babies as much as he drones on about he wouldn’t be a GOP voter.


Oh really lol tell me who have I voted for over the years???? Did I vote Republican or Democrat? or maybe I voted independent? Maybe I just voted for whoever I thought would do the best job, whoever came the closest to matching the things that were the most important to me even though none of us ever agree on everything. Now come on my friend tell me who I voted for in my lifetime.


I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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