DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Palus Politicus Mass shootings & how politics gets in the way of solutions

BS,, it's a feeble attempt to distract.. That's all that is.

https://chicago.suntimes.com/crime/2022/5/29/23146412/chicago-shootings-memorial-day-weekend

Two mass shootings in Chitown. No hand wringing and pearl clutching. No mention of the arms used which usually means it wasn't an evil black rifle.

So Frank..how do you believe they should address the gun issue in Chicago...? What would be your suggestion to make Chicago a safer place..?

Stop letting people out of jail that harm others.

We had a shooting in our neighborhood last year. The dude was arrested, charged with felon in possession and the let walk. It was his 8th time charged with felon in possession. The laws are there, enforce them. Quit pandering to the nonsense that cash bail is racist, that incarnation of violent offenders is racist. Harm others, go rot.

Chicago's gun laws are among the most strict in the nation.

I read a while ago that Chicago is kinda unique because it's within spitting distance of places where it's extremely easy to get whatever firearm you want (Indiana?). IMO, I thought the article was dumb because it was essentially whining about criminals not following laws... but it is an interesting conversation about extremely restrictive laws in the city but you can just walk a couple blocks and it's the Wild West.

Well that sort of goes to the heart of one of the major issues when discussing any changes to gun regulations and availability. there are close to 400,000,000 guns in the USA. They aren't going anywhere - they don't have a shelf life, they don't magically disappear. The criminals - by their very definition are not relinquishing any guns. And in Chicago with "strict gun laws" - what does that mean for the massive gang population? Nada.

I hear this all the time. I also hear about the mental illness angle all the time. Yet other than third world nations where people are too poor to buy these video games, every child in every other nation do the same thing. They play violent video games. Their children park themselves in front of their computers. They have mental illness.

Yet little to nothing in the way of mass shootings. I think it's time people stop trying to blame what only happens here with great frequency on the very same conditions that exist in countless nations where it does not happen.

It makes sense only if you ignore the vast majority of video game players that come out the other end completely fine and unaffected. Violent video games are an easy/lazy scapegoat (IMO, even moreso than guns themselves) because video games are viewed as a child's activity even though that's nowhere near true (as evidenced by video games being more and more geared towards adult consumers). It's more a case of correlation vs causation... in that if a person who can't/won't differentiate between fantasy/game and reality probably is much more likely to grab a gun and shoot up a school. Doesn't mean the video game is the culprit (but it could be an indicator).

While I agree with most of your post, I do not misquote you. I quote your exact words which I quote from your own posts. Why do you continue to perpetuate this lie?

Yet, guns and Republicans are being blamed for these mass shootings far more than any other reasons. Do all gun owners commit mass murders? If not, do a high percentage of commit mass murders? What percentage of gun owners commit mass murders? Same w/Republicans and those that listen to far right messages. Do they all go out and shoot up schools? Do most of them? What percentage of them do that?

It's a complex problem w/multiple factors that play a role in what is happening. It's not very smart to try and narrow it down to one or two things.

Frankly, I don't see us ever solving the problem.

What percentage of children that grow up playing violent videos murder people?

You seem to agree that raising the age to 21 to buy such weapons is a good idea. Who has prevented that from happening?

I'm pretty sure you understand it's not about "how many murders Republicans are committing". It's about the NRA lobbyists paying millions to republicans so nothing will ever be done to try and stop it.

What fraction of murders in Chicago are committed by people who have been previously convicted of a violent felony? I'd have to guess it's pretty small -- especially because the average shooter is a teenager.

Generally, I'm not a huge proponent of "if something isn't working, do more of it".

They simply travel to the next state over, Indiana to purchase firearms and guns are brought into Chicago from Indiana and other states where gun laws are lax.

36K illegal guns taken off Chicago streets in recent years; trafficking remains a perplexing problem

https://wgntv.com/news/wgn-investig...rafficking-remains-a-perplexing-problem/

This is why state laws and city laws alone will never address this problem.

I found this article - which imo is truly excellent. Detailed and in depth and with cases for and against why video games may influence kids to be more aggressive (or more aggressive kids gravitate and simply are more likely to go seek these games). But with 15.4 Billion kids playing Grand Theft Auto 5 - the numbers we are talking about in comparison to who then becomes a "shooter" is truly minute.

https://www.healthline.com/health-n...Why-Is-It-So-Hard-to-Get-a-Clear-Answer?

Maybe you can liken some of the angst against video games to how Rock and Roll was viewed/called "the Devil's Music" at one time - and dancing like Elvis was first viewed back in the 60's vulgar and animalism... Possibly - just a thought. In that article it does state that individuals who never played Video Games are much more likely to blame real world gun violence on Video Games than those who have played.

Reality is there are lots of factors and influences - they should all be discussed and reviewed and considered. Guns are part of that - the type that are repeatedly used - the ammo - the availability - the legal age limit - any, all potential factors that *might* make a difference one day. just my 2 cents

Didn't see this Q before I just posted. Based on 15+ Billion gamers playing GTA 5 - and if you assumed a high number like 1,500,000 people murder people in a year. that there are the percentage might be something around 0.00000000001% ? Maybe less if you identify all the gamers who play other violent video games that have never played GTA 5.

I mean super rough ball park numbers. But I think that's about 1.5M as a % of 15B.... happy to be corrected by any math gurus.

Edit . . . Yeah my math is off - I'm traveling and don't have a calculator. Someone grab a calculator and figure it out. It's going to be in the 0.1 - 0.001 range

Well, by that logic alone, how many guns are in the U.S. vs. how many are used in mass shootings?

Not trying to be a smart butt.

2/3's.

Federal law allows you to travel to a different state to purchase a firearm, however, the purchase has to be legal in both states for you.

For instance, I cannot go to PA and purchase a Bushmaster AR-15 as it is banned, by name, here in MD. If a FFL sells it to me they are in violation and can lose their license. I can go purchase a Mossberg 500 though, as that is a legal, cash and carry item in both states. I cannot purchase a handgun out of state either since MD requires a permit to do so that I do not have.

Just answering a question ... And then as for your question, which isn't a smart butt Q at all ... you could further skew things by asking "what % of legally owned guns in the USA are used in Gun Violence / mass shootings" ....

I think the social influences is a valid facet to look into. I think the most common tools to carry out these attacks is a valid facet to look into. Just as I think how deadly different guns are and if it makes sense for legal ownership .... as I mentioned in a different post, I've legally fired a friends 50 cal Barrett sniper rifle. I can't think of a single reasonable justification why it's legal to own that.

And yet how often is a rifle like that used in a crime?

There are long range events and people enjoy long range shooting. It is a challenging sport. I seem to recall an event in WV that is a 2 day hike and shoot and everything is distance. Sounds fun but, IIRC, you have to be invited in or prove your way in as they don't want people who aren't capable of making the shots.

Why should anyone own a Hellcat? Way too much power for the street.

How did you arrive at 15 billion gamers when there only about 8 billion people on earth?

LOL.... As I said I am on phone traveling. Sorry for error. The total is on that article link posted. I'll go look it up.

*** So in reviewing the article - pretty sure it is $15B in sales $$$ - it doesn't spell that out but would make sense.

*** in terms of numbers - estimate was 90% of kids play shooter video games

Yes - I noted before when I talked about it, crimes aren't being committed with 50 cal sniper rifles. But that doesn't change the fact that I can't think of a logical justification to legally own that weapon.

There are other much smaller caliber rifles that can and do shoot competitively at 600 yards + .... friend had one of those too.

j/c

mathematically speaking, my hypothesis is that the number of school shootings (100 years ago) compared to the USA population has stayed the same since or decreased slightly


We have been dealing with mass shootings/school shootings since the first one happened in the 1760's

Somehow, your calculations are "meaningless" as we try to search for solutions to the murder innocent school kids and adults.

Kind of lame attempt to justify how bad the shootings have become in the USA, imo.

So we should ban AR-15s because they are used in crime and ban .50 Barrets because they are not?

Sadly .50BMG is the largest caliber allowed for civilian use but we should reduce from there? This is exactly the issue. One little bite of cake, and another and another and another.

No.

We don't legalize Barrett 50 cal because there is not justification for legalizing such a weapon - in my opinion. You tried to frame the justification around their use in crimes. That is not what I said, anywhere.

As for the piece of cake. No. Not at all - but I realize that's a troupe that gun rights enthusiasts fall back on ... to suggest any restriction must mean the end game is to ban all.

that's actually the thing.. they are about the same vs getting worse.

is it wrong? yes. does it need to be fixed? yes. But, there is also a % of people in the world who are evil and will continue to do evil things no matter how we try and stop them.

The end game is total ban. It won't be done outright but that is the end game. It gets hinted at from time to time. When they passed the FSA of 2013 here in MD one of the assembly people asked "So how do we take the guns away now?". He thought they passed confiscation, not just bans of sales.

Beto said "Hell yay we're gonna take em" then backed away from it when he failed to get his nomination. He's back at it.

The end game has always been a complete ban. It isn't a secret, it is just hand waved away.

Here is how gun control works:

Anti: We just want to ban these for common sense.
Gun owners: Well, ok as long as it's just that.
Anti: We just want to ban these for common sense.
Gun owners: Didn't we ban other stuff?
Anti: Yes but now we need to ban more.

Repeat. The compromise that is talked about is "give up what we say now or it'll be worse later". There is no logical reason a Barret .50 shouldn't be allowed, and since that is how it works, no they should not be banned.

Not. One. More. Inch.

j/c

also, school shootings when school is in session and shootings that happen on school property are combined when it comes to "school shootings"

here are two examples of (hundreds) of examples with school shootings that occurred late at night or when school was not in session and count as a "school shooting".
https://www.cleveland.com/metro/202...-in-clevelands-tremont-neighborhood.html
The shooting happened about 11:45 p.m. at Luis Munoz Marin School on Castle Avenue near Scranton Road, according to police and the medical examiner.


https://www.detroitnews.com/story/n...ht-shot-fired-school-grounds/5435977002/
Officials said the school was not in session and the building was empty at the time of the incident. They also said investigators believe the two people involved in the fight are not associated with the school.


Statistically, this weakens the argument and proves that we need to make gangs illegal and have security on school property when it is not in session. Far more people are shot and killed due to gang-related violence or violence on school property after hours than shootings while school is in session.

not trying to nitpick here, but you posted two examples, one being a single death, the other some random firing shots in the air.

so since you've identified how they combine incidents to label it school shootings, what is the number of shootings that happen on school property that result in death vs the number of shootings during session that result in death.

and just to drive home the point about how pathetic this entire discussion is, let's all take a step back and REALLY understand what people are advocating for:

in the US, supposedly the prosperous and richest country in the world, and the most "free", we are actively having a national discussion about whether we should arm our teachers so that they can potentially intervene in an activer shooter situation.

we sound more like Afghanistan than Afghanistan. i dont know about you guys, but that reality alone doesn't say we live in a 1st world country.

I disagree. Quoting random politicians who are often idiots doesn't make your case in my personal opinion.

Most often politicians are idiots.

That doesn't mean they don't say the secrets outside of school.

well, someone would have to go through all 2,032 . Based on what I can tell, it looks like the vast majority of "shootings" are not in session or are one off things like... kid was shot in leg on way to school before or A stray bullet fired during a street altercation struck a student, or a stray bullet hit a school bus, a stalker knew the person would in a school parking lot at a certain time and kills xyz... worker accidentally shoots and kills self while working on roof, a lot of drive bys.... crazy stuff like that...


tons of domestic violence type stuff that they are counting...(which would probably still happen without a gun just in a different way)

A man shot and killed his wife in the parking lot after an argument prior to their picking up their child for a doctor's appointment. Police later determined that he had killed a female friend of his wife. The man was killed in a car crash attempting to flee from police.

Cedric Baxter drove his SUV into a school bus driven by his estranged wife then opened fire on it, a six-year old child was also on the bus though neither the child or the driver were injured by the gunfire, Baxter then drove away from the scene which resulted in a high speed chase until the car crashed and Baxter was killed by the police in a shootout

A worker fixing the roof of Canyon del Oro High School was fatally wounded after his unholstered weapon accidentally discharged.

A large group of men jumped a fence to gain access to Atascocita High Schools football field, when an argument escalated and a 19-year-old was killed.

well, seems like you have some summer reading you can then summarize for us.

I've seen, and I won't be able to find, reports of "school shootings" and some of them - SOME - made me think "how is this a school shooting?"

Problem is, the true answer is hard to find.

You know if there is a shooting and they can mention the name of a near by school it is a school shooting, though why people are shooting schools I don't know.