No idea if that is feasible, possible, probable.... But if it comes to pass at least we can take solace in knowing the Browns did a thorough investigation.
I am comfortable they did. You can investigate only as far as you can investigate. As i said before, this isn't like Jim Rockford always getting to the bottom of things. I suppose if we could have enlisted the CIA or FBI we could have accessed closed court documents or given Buzzbee truth serum to find out any names held deep in the bushes.
Just another comment, indefinite suspension could actually be a good thing. It sounds severe, but it could turn out that it could be 2 games.
I would think indefinite would be a bad move by the NFL. If they hand out a defined suspension,,,,6 games, 1 year, whatever, that pretty much puts it to rest. After the initial discussion, it pretty much goes away. If it is indefinite, the talk might go on week to week the whole season.
Any way you cut it there will be discussion when he goes on suspension and when he comes off. I think the NFL would want to eliminate that middle the word indefinite would create.
After almost 3 more months of new allegations, witness testimonies and media coverage I’m 100% sure they didn’t do a proper investigation. No organization run by a professional management take such a huge financial risk with so much uncertainties in how long a eventual suspension will be. Not to mention all lost draft picks.
Incompetence is the only way to describe such a bad decision based on at that time known evidence, and that’s before two more new allegations and the NYP article .
Sue Robinson, a former federal judge, is the Disciplinary Officer who hands down the punishment. She is being paid jointly by BOTH the NFL and the NFLPA. Thus, the decision might be more fair. The lead investigator is the same lady who was so biased on the Zeke case and I question her fairness. Anyway, Sue Robinson will decide if Watson should be punished or not. She would be the one to impose the penalty. I believe the NFLPA could appeal. Let's say she says 6 games. They might want less. Goodell could step in and render a final decision which cannot be appealed. Goodell is out of the loop if Sue Robinson declares there should be no penalty. At least that is how I understand it.
I'm hoping that a compromise can be worked out and Watson is suspended for just 4 games, just like Ben was after he appealed the original 6-game suspension and that Goodell stays out of the way due to the threat of the NFLPA's attorneys going after the NFL hard on the Snyder case. Goodell could claim that the choice was Sue Robinson's when the "morality police" question the lack of a long-term suspension.
No idea if that is feasible, possible, probable.... But if it comes to pass at least we can take solace in knowing the Browns did a thorough investigation.
I am comfortable they did. You can investigate only as far as you can investigate.
That's probably pretty reasonable - the truth is we don't know. But as others more eloquent than myself have written - given the facts that were available and that the NY Times exposed in a very short period of time, given we've just had "me too", given the number of allegations and the 66 different therapists within 17 months ... there was enough bad juju about this situation that 3 first rounders and a $1/4B were incredibly high assets to give up for something that contained so much potential additional risk that was not then known. You can investigate as far as you can but then you have to do some risk analysis on what might be out there that you were unable to discover and that might yet come out.
The more things change the more they stay the same.
I think 4 games is a pipe dream. I literally see zero possibility. There are still 4 cases pending trial. It makes a little difference that they are pending civil and not criminal trial - but they are still "pending trial".
I can't conceive of the floor being less than 8 games - I expect the minimum to be 10 games - It would not be at all surprising to see a full season if the NFL wants to set an image that reflects what the country went through with 'me too'. Many many high profile males resigned or lost jobs based on "he said she said" allegations from one, two, three sources. So in that sense 26 accusations makes a difference. It wouldn't be surprising to see the NFL find a way to ice Watson until all the cases are resolved, and then make a decision on the suspension. That might be the worst scenario for the Browns. And maybe the final 4 cases will be settled and a decision can be announced before the season. We still don't know.
Last edited by mgh888; 06/25/2207:51 AM.
The more things change the more they stay the same.
Surprisingly, there is not a ton of information out there about Sue Robinson. There is the article from Florio that was posted earlier, but it doesn't contain much information about her. Here is the Wiki info: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sue_Lewis_Robinson
And there is this:
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NFL and Players Union Negotiating Watson Deal in Test of New CBA
Sue Lewis Robinson United States federal judge
The looming legal battle over a looming appeal of a looming NFL suspension of Deshaun Watson might all get benched.
According to journalist Josiana Anderson, the NFL and NFLPA, along with representatives for Watson, are attempting to negotiate a settlement before retired federal Judge Sue Robinson, serving as a neutral disciplinary officer under the NFL’s new procedures, hands down a suspension. Anderson explains that the talks have been tabled because of a disagreement over the number of games Watson would be sidelined.
The NFL’s reported willingness to settle with Watson is an illustration of how NFL commissioner Roger Goodell’s powers have changed in the new CBA. He previously issued punishments and, at his discretion, heard appeals. The new system, however, involves a disciplinary officer who was jointly appointed by the league and union. If Robinson issues a ruling, Watson (through the NFLPA) or the league could appeal it. Goodell or a designee of his choosing would hear the appeal.
While this system ensures Goodell has final say, the optics of a commissioner who is not an attorney effectively overruling a retired judge—who is also a former federal prosecutor and a recipient of awards for excellence in the legal profession—are worth considering. Goodell might hesitate to conclude that a person of Robinson’s stature got it wrong. That could be a motivation for the league to engage in settlement talks.
The talks are also an important reminder that whether, and for how long, Watson is suspended is a question about application of a bargained workplace policy that prohibits conduct detrimental to the league. This is not a “legal” question. To that point, Robinson is not deciding whether Watson broke a law. She is applying a workplace policy.
The NFL and NFLPA can also enjoy the latitude of labor law. Generally, union and management can agree to apply a workplace policy as they see fit. If they reach a deal that Watson, who didn’t play in 2021, is suspended for eight games, and that Watson agrees not to appeal or sue, that is within their discretion.
Both sides also have an incentive to avoid going to court. After an appeal to Goodell is decided, Watson could petition a federal court to vacate it. The odds of success would be low. Federal law requires that judges accord broad deference to arbitrators. Goodell or his designee would be functioning as an arbitrator in hearing the appeal. Watson would need to establish there was a glaring or meaningful defect in the process used to judge him—a taller task with Robinson being part of that process.
But the NFL didn’t expect Tom Brady to win at the district court level in 2015, which tabled a four-game suspension. While the NFL won on the next round at the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Second Circuit, the league might be leery of another high-profile court battle with a star player.
Sheesh..........I have stated repeatedly that I have no idea how long the suspension will be. I was just putting numbers up there to demonstrate the appeal process. I apologize for the confusion. But again, I am NOT going to predict the length of the suspension and I thought I have made that perfectly clear over the last couple of months.
I'm hoping that a compromise can be worked out and Watson is suspended for just 4 games, just like Ben was after he appealed the original 6-game suspension and that Goodell stays out of the way due to the threat of the NFLPA's attorneys going after the NFL hard on the Snyder case. Goodell could claim that the choice was Sue Robinson's when the "morality police" question the lack of a long-term suspension.
Sheesh. I was responding to the actual words you wrote in this post.
If what you wrote is not what you meant to mean I'm left a bit confused. Since you have an advanced degree in English, I figured when you wrote that this was something you were hoping for, that's what you meant.
Last edited by mgh888; 06/25/2208:09 AM.
The more things change the more they stay the same.
If anyone else would like to discuss Sue Robinson's role in how the process plays out and exactly what the NFLPA and Goodell can do, please respond to me and we can discuss it. It seems like an interesting topic to me. However, I am not going to argue on the number of games because I have no idea what that number will be. I used the 6 and 4 numbers as hypotheticals and not as some sort of prediction.
I would think indefinite would be a bad move by the NFL. If they hand out a defined suspension,,,,6 games, 1 year, whatever, that pretty much puts it to rest. After the initial discussion, it pretty much goes away. If it is indefinite, the talk might go on week to week the whole season.
"indefinite suspension"...
It sounds terrible, but imo it might be the best choice of words the NFL could use to define Watson's case given all the moving parts.
It has been written that Goodell almost lost his job over the suspension he handed down to Ray Rice that dealt with a single incident committed by Rice. Goodell is not about to set himself up for another situation where a player's personal conduct results in a suspension that does not line up with the offense. Watson's situation might linger for a long time as the potential for additional cases being filed could also linger for an unknown time period.
The NFL and Goodell are going to protect themselves against the possibility that additional cases might surface at any time creating a situation where the NFL's punishment/suspension is not adequate. How many more cases might materialize...who knows for sure...but the number 66 might be a baseline that the NFL is taking into account.
"Indefinite suspension" might mean that once Watson takes care of the remaining cases the NFL might feel comfortable ending Watson's suspension. Just when that might happen is an unknown but the responsibility for ending the mess falls directly upon Watson and his legal team.
I am sure some will misconstrue what I am stating.
The NFL and NFLPA through their collective bargaining agreement set a "personal conduct code."
For the moment I want to forget about the DW case.
Like all of us I have held jobs in the private sector. I never signed any agreement before being employed that allowed for the employer to "suspend or terminate" an employee for non criminal "personal conduct" outside the workplace. First off it would be subjective and basically they could interpret any behavior and apply it a "personal conduct code."
If I wanted to dress up in a halloween costume every time I was off work. They could say "we don't like that behavior."
If I wanted to go to a legal protest rally and carry a sign. They could say the company does not agree with the sign and apply that to their policy.
If you are not indicted for a crime. And you maintain your innocence. I am unclear how you can be suspended and not payed no matter the number or how compelling the accusers are?
In a trial evidence has to prove beyond reasonable doubt and a jury has to vote on that.
We can listen to testimony and be outraged. And from there who decides what justice should be?
Castration? No suspension, four games, six games, 8 games, a full season, two seasons, never play again. What is justice and who determines it?
Once it is doled out will it meet your approval?
Maybe there is a way thru this but I thought that is why we have the department of justice and courts of law.
In the real world of the NFL, they have established their own Personal Conduct Policies that is applicable to all employees, players,coaches and owners. I'm sure that all concerned have been briefed on the NFL's Personal Conduct Policies and made aware of what is expected of them in terms of conduct.
Anyone not agreeing with the NFL's Personal Conduct guidelines is free to seek employment elsewhere.
This is not an attack on you but you missed the point.
Maybe I did not make myself clear.
I read the entire document on "personal code of conduct."
That still leaves it wide open to subjective intrepretation.
No matter if you believe ever word of the accusers. There are still two sides and no proof. 20 cases settled.
Who is to say that the accusers who were interviewed for tv where not coached and practiced to give a performance? Again I am not saying that happened. But lets not forget there can be a financial motive.
The grand juries listened to 6 hours of testimony and whatever evidence was presented. It was a closed hearing and no poster or media people were there.
But now everyone has their opinion on what took place. Testimony of the accusers has been made public. Compelling testimony.
However, that testimony may have been given to the grand juries and the defense then had the opportunity to cross examine.
Nobody heard that. But it seems now people are convinced they know what happened.
I do believe people want accountability and some form of justice. Intentions are good. However, I am not thrilled about the process.
1. You keep forgetting to include the word "allegedly." You are not privy to the truth. Stop pretending you were there.
We KNOW that the Texans provided NDA's to silence them from reporting watson's behavior.
We KNOW watson claimed in a deposition that he did not look at these women in a sexual nature because "he had a girlfriend" only later to admit he had sex with some of them.
There are things we KNOW. Pretending we don't know the truth sounds great. But we KNOW at least some of the truth. And what we do KNOW looks terrible.
Quote
2. What business is it of yours how others choose to root for their teams? How are we hurting you by hoping that Watson plays? You are free to go root for Baker's next team. No one will stop you.
Once again you act like expecting watson to be held accountable is a Baker thing. And you can't keep claiming your false narrative is because you are drunk.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
[quote]2. What business is it of yours how others choose to root for their teams? How are we hurting you by hoping that Watson plays? You are free to go root for Baker's next team. No one will stop you.
Originally Posted by PitDAWG
Once again you act like expecting watson to be held accountable is a Baker thing. And you can't keep claiming your false narrative is because you are drunk.
You know if another poster did that - the word that would spam the boards for the next 2 days would be "liar"
The more things change the more they stay the same.
I do believe people want accountability and some form of justice.
Nope. I could give a (Brittney Spears' attorney choice) about that. (I understand there isn't going to be any of that in this world.) I want to see the Browns Win! what a time for the q and ! keys to work... (too blunt a reference? (yes, changed) Other considrations: Roseannes' anthem Something about Bjork being named. Sinead O'Connors' SNL haircut. ( Ralphies' Christmas story was deemed too risky)
I want to see the Browns WIN!
The point is if you get - all 3000 NFL players and coaches... are you going to sit there and (judge) ... or are we going to build this ""* Road! It's not going to build itself. It's a metaphor. Another one is, make like a bridge, and get over it!
Can Deshaun Watson play better for the Browns, than Baker Mayfield would have? ... Now the Games count.
You just make crap up to defend another member of your We-We team. There was nothing in my post about being a victim. Y'all would actually have to win an argument in order for me to be a victim. It goes something like this. I'm Clint. You guys are the Black Widows.
I quote your own words and you try to lie your way out of what you actually posted. You couldn't sniff Clint Eastwood's jock strap. I've never heard him whine and play the victim like you do on a regular basis.
"I reported this post!". Yeah, that's not Clint Eastwood.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
I don't use PM's. It is odd how you mention PM's though. It seems like it's your side that claims to know how "other people on the board think about posters". I wonder how they would know that? It often times works out that people accuse others of exactly what they themselves are guilty of.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
Really, one of your We brothers was describing a conversation the WE team was having just a few days ago and that conversation sure didn't occur on any of the forums.
Okay, back to Sue Robinson, Goodell, the NFLPA, and the Personal Conduct policy.
While there is not a ton of information on Sue Robinson, her record as a judge looks very good. I think it is good that she was hired not just by the NFL, but by both the NFL and NFLPA. That seems like it would lead to a more fair decision. I don't trust the lead investigator after her suppressing evidence in the Zeke case. But, it is what it is. At least Sue Robinson seems legit.
I am not positive, but it appears the NFL and the NFLPA are not close in terms of how many games Watson should be suspended. Will the NFLPA go hard after the NFL w/the Snyder, Jones, and Kraft cases? They indicated they would and have said they want to protect Watson's rights. How much of an influence will public opinion factor into the decision? Will some of that be negated by the threat of exposing the underbelly of the NFL in regards to their unfair and biased decisions when it comes to violating the Personal Conduct Policy? Let's say that Robinson doesn't rule for a long suspension for conversational purposes. Will Goodell step in and significantly increase the length of the suspension? Or, will he deflect the attention to Sue Robinson in order to stop the NFLPA from exposing how some of these owners have gotten off w/hardly a slap on the wrist?
There is a lot of intrigue in this story. It would make for a good book or movie.
I read the entire document on "personal code of conduct."
That still leaves it wide open to subjective intrepretation.
No matter if you believe ever word of the accusers. There are still two sides and no proof. 20 cases settled.
bone...you are correct, none of us listened to the evidence presented to the grand juries and all of are attempting to read between the various opinions that have become public and are forming our opinions based on those presenting their opinions.
How each of us interprets the information being made public is likely to differ...not a problem.
But, keep this in mind, you seem to be dwelling on the criminal process that Texas based their decision on to not charge Watson with a crime. I seriously question how Texas handled the Watson case and how they presented the evidence to the GJ, leading to no criminal charges being filed. I believe some put too much emphasis on whether or not Watson was found criminally responsible in this case.
The NFL does not have to rely on the results of any states criminal process when it comes down to judging whether or not the NFL believes someone violated their Personal Conduct Policy. The NFL is not attempting to toss anyone in jail so the evidence uncovered before the Grand Jury might not have much of an impact on the Personal Conduct Policy that the NFL is using to determine whether or not Watson was in violation of and who is now subject to discipline under the NFL's Personal Conduct Policy.
JMO, but it sure appears that some (the NFL) who have had much more access to the information, might be convinced that via the many investigations, there is enough evidence to determine whether Watson violated the NFL's Personal Conduct Policy or not..!
Now we wait to see how the NFL interpreted the evidence as it applies to Watson's conduct under the NFL policies.
In the big picture I think it's more a question of how people think that outdated and less than adequate punishments for such offenses is the perfect reason/excuse not to make it more in line with what's proper. I mean we could use that excuse for almost anything. Just look at history to see how many times that's been attempted to prevent making positive changes.
And in the post being responded to the personal conduct policy was put into question. Thus the responses.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
I could be wrong, but I don't think I have seen one comment that says Watson is innocent in regards to the Personal Conduct Policy. The argument made by myself and some others is that the doling out of punishment for those who are in violation of the Personal Conduct Policy is biased and unfair. The players get hammered and the owners get a slap on the wrist or no punishment at all.
Some of you might endorse unfair treatment of one group vs another. Some of you may feel that the richest of the rich deserve preferential treatment. Some of you might not believe in solid American ethics like equity and fair treatment for all groups. But, there are those of us who think that the punishments should be equal for all men and women and not just a select few.
There are countries that are ruled by dictators. Perhaps some would be more comfortable there? But, this is the United States of America and people demand fair and equal treatment for all!!!
And some say, "Yeah, but they only did this to insert name here*" as an excuse why the NFL shouldn't handle this situation more properly than in the past.
At what point do we say, "They haven't done enough to properly address such things in the past and it's time for that to change"?
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
Exactly what it says. Coming up short or being wrong in the past shouldn't be a reason or excuse to continue not doing enough. At some point that needs to be addressed. If not now, when? I don't think that needs further explanation.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
They do not have a choice but to agree. Either agree or don't play football. That is not a choice if you have spent your life preparing to make it into the NFL.
I don't like the process. If the NFL and NFLPA want this policy then they need to come up with a better way to determine punishment.
Have a closed door internal trial. Mimic a regular trial. Come to a conclusion of what is fair.
So far the way these determinations have come down were Goodell was the judge and jury.
So now they have a new process. And so far it appears that the pocess can be influenced by outside factors that have little to do with true fairness.
What merit does the process have when it states that everyone is included in the conduct code but only players face punishment and that punishment is hardly consistent?
If Ben accused of a violent felony and not charged is given six games. How do you measure other accusations with no criminal indictment and the accusations are of sexual harrassment and or indecent exposure. My line in the sand is crossed on force or violence. If there was force he should be criminally charged and face prison time. On 24 accusations and 20 settle with no civil cases tried??
There sure has been a lot of investigations. So, make a decision and let's move on.
Well, I guess we agree. Snyder should be kicked out of the league. Jones should be punished. Kraft should have been punished. McNair should have been punished for his racist remarks.
On the other hand, Zeke was unfairly punished. Hunt's suspension was longer than it should have been. Brady got 4 games for Deflate-Gate. Yes, Ray Rice got off easier than most thought, but others haven't. Yet, the owners walk free.
We finally agree on something. Wonders never cease.
bone, guys like Stephan A Smith have been talking about how the NFL acting like they are law enforcement is a slippery slope to be on. With their long history of bias on doling out punishment, the NFL could be in big trouble if this entire things makes it to the courts. I am not sure, but Fairness in the Workplace practices could come into play if the NFLPA takes the NFL to court.
And I certainly don't disagree with you that both players and owners have been dealt with too lightly in the past for infractions. Even more so with the owners as you have pointed out. Especially those of a sexual nature. I mean really, if Brady got four games for inflate gate, what should the penalty for watson be?
I just don't believe it's a realistic thing to say that mistakes of the past are an excuse not to do the right thing now and moving forward. If people lived by that mantra nobody would ever grow or mature. They would never learn to conduct themselves better or be accountable for anything.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
But again, Watson has not been even tried by a Criminal Court, never mind convicted of a crime. The NFL's long-standing defense of punishing people associated w/the league has been the Personal Conduct Policy. They point to that they can punish even if there hasn't been a crime committed.
Thus, we must look at the PCP and how it is being used. There is no argument that can be made that the NFL has not been consistent in how they treat the players vs the owners. For those who refuse to acknowledge this fact, please look to the attorneys for the NFLPA and see what they said as they are preparing Watson's defense.
