DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum What area deserves our 1st pick?

Do we need a speed rusher?

I would LOVE to take Branch, and make him an end.


I mean look at what Balti did, they took Ngata, and made him an End...he is 330 + pounds!!!!!

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Understood but we have the combine and physicals to get through. Things are not exactly set yet and injury history does come into play when you are talking about LT's drafted in the top 5.



They are referrring to all players here not LT's right??


He may be but so was Robert Gallery.

I didnt have any previous experience of watching branch other than this year, that is where my 02-04 question came from.

I dont question where either of these guys are rated currently, I just wonder if they are "all that" or just "all that" compared to other players at thier position this year.


We have so many needs that lots of guys would help. I am not saying that Branch & Thomas wouldnt help us. My point is you seldom get a chance at top QB prospect. We are not in a position where Joe Thomas or Branch are really going to make a HUGE difference in the way this team performs. JMHO but we havent ever had good QB play since we came back in 99. We may not get a shot at another one this high.

Oh to be talking draft before the season is over



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[color:"red"] I would LOVE to take Branch, and make him an end.


I mean look at what Balti did, they took Ngata, and made him an End...he is 330 + pounds!!!!!

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I said that last year , that Ngata would make a excellent DE in our 34 ..think only about 5 people agreed with that <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I think people assume that a DE has to be a speed pass rusher, when that just sin't true.

Best O player is Calvin Johnson
Best D player is Gaines Adams

The fact that Quinn is likely to go #1 then u have Joe Thomas, Peterson and Jamarcus Russell that could slide into 2 leaves me feeling we could end up with one of those 2. Neither is a super need but they are your O and D top talent.

Correct..in a 34 ..the DE is really a DT..depending on the scheme U can have a lighter guy 290-310 or a heavier guy 310-330 ...

I definitely agree - its all about talent, but would add that "fit" is also critical.

The problem with Adams (or any college DE) is that he has to be projected into our defense (as do any DL or OLBs). He might have the best talent on the board - but can he do what we're asking him to do is another question that would need to be answered.

I more and more I think about Adams, the more I kind of like the thought of it. Everything I've read on the kid projects him as a great 3-4 OLB. He seems to have all the skills. If we take Gaines Adams with Branch, Peterson, or Thomas still on the board, I wouldn't be surprised. During his time in Baltimore, they drafted some excellent LB's. I think he really knows how to draft LB's (see KW and DQ). Willie will be here to help him learn the position. No better coach for that position in my opinion. That would be a pretty good line backing crew for a while. Gaines Adams, KW, DQ, and Andra Davis, along with Leon Williams waiting in the wings. If Savage drafted Adams, we could go OG in the second round. I think Shaffer will be fine once he has a better guard playing next to him. Hopefully we can manage to pull Stienbach from the Bengals, not sure how that's gonna happen, but just said hopefully. Re-sign Frank. Not really sure what to do about RT though. Maybe Leonard Davis at LT and Shaffer at RT? Not really sure how good Davis is, just heard from others.

I would want Thomas just as much as the next guy if he is worthy of the #3 pick, but I don't want him if we draft him just because O-Line is a position of need and he happens to be the best O-lineman in the draft.

Seems like theres alot of options at the #3 pick that could help us out quite a bit, should be intersting to see where we go with it.

The only player I want at #3 is Thomas.

My ideal draft would be:

Trade down for 2 #1 picks (I know our annual pipe dream).

1st round Okoye and Woodley
I think Okoye will turn out to be the best d-lineman coming out of this draft
Woodley will be a stud OLB in a 3-4. He will be a force against the run and with his natural pass rushing skills being paired opposite Wimbley the o-line will have no idea where our rush will be coming from.

2nd round Grubbs or Beekman
Get one of the top OG's in the draft

3rd round Kyle Young or Kirk Barton
Continue to fortify the o-line. Either of these guys would be a steal here. Barton would be our RT for the next 15 years. Young is supposedly quite versatile and could play anywhere on the o-line. Currently playing center and making all the line calls at Fresno State he is suppose to be quite bright as well. Plus being able to play anywhere along the o-line increases his value with our injury history.

The pick of Gaines Adams intrigues me too... If we could pick up a solid OL in FA (not even a Steinbach, just a solid OL) and the go OL in the second round.. I'd be thrilled with Gaines Adams... He has all of the physical skills of Wimbley except he's 2 inches taller and 15 pounds heavier... and just as fast... <img src="/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif" alt="" />

Being that both guard spots is more of a need than tackle, that's probably our best plan of attack.

Exactly, you can get a perfectly solid OG early in the second round...

I am curious though, IF Bentley comes back at some point next year... how realistic is it that he will play guard and Bentley will stay at center?

i'm guessing they won't rush him too much. if bentley comes back with two good guards beside him and hank for depth, we're that much better off.

DC, PRPL...

the problem i have with that is who those LBs are gonna be lining up behind. Wimbley played very well for a rookie, but was less of a force than he could be b/c he was afforded more attention than, say, a Steeler OLB...simply b/c McKinley was so easy to neutralize. and people say McGinest was stealing paychecks, but i thought he was hindered a good bit by plyaing behind a slowing Roye early, and a cast of 3rd stringers after that.

meanwhile, you've got a guy who has the frame to match Washington's current size sitting there for the taking. and the best part about Branch is this...in all the scouting reports out on him (granted there aren't many yet), the phrase 'takes plays off' and the word 'laziness' has not appeared once...IMO, that's the kiss of death for a 1st round DT...of course, that was said about Ngata going into last draft, and he's been about as dominant as a rookie DT can be, so my theory may not be perfect, but i stand by it...

just like taking a OL affects more than just the OL, taking DL improves more than just the DL play...

Jester when the draft rolls around I NEVER try to figure in trades or moves..I look at it as straight 7 picks..
Now I want to touch on another thought that was mentioned..should we not be able to select Thomas and should Branch not come out..most in here want [color:"red"]Peterson [/color] ..but would he have more value to the Browns than [color:"red"] Gaines Adams DE/OLB Clemson 6-5 260? [/color]
Selecting him would complete the LB core ..he'd play behind McGinest and opposite Wimbley <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

You're absolutely correct and DLine is a major concern. I was just weighing the actual need for a LT vs. another OLB... and at first, I would jump all over the OLB. However, after thinking about it, it's harder to find that "true" LT (unless another McNeil drops a round or two) while you can get stud tweener type OLBs in the late 1st round... so I've talked myself back into wanting Joe Thomas at the top of the 1st.

The only question now is this Branch kid ... just how good is he?

Is he stout against the run as well as having a pass rush motor?

Is he one of those once in a blue moon types like a Ted Washington or a Sam Adams or Casey Hampton?

In terms of playing style... Would he be in the mold of Casey Hampton (plays the run & can generate a push on passing downs) or Ted Washington (plays the run and eats blocks, but no pass rushing just occupies lots of space)... or some mix of the two? In short... is he gonna be out there for 3 downs or is he gonna be like Ted and come out in passing situations?

Can we get someone in the 2nd that would be maybe not as good, but similarly effective?

Finally... is he a better NT than Joe Thomas is a LT?



Either way, I think those two should be our primary focus with Gaines Adams in third place if those two are somehow gone by our pick.

[color:"red"] In terms of playing style... Would he be in the mold of Casey Hampton (plays the run & can generate a push on passing downs) or Ted Washington (plays the run and eats blocks, but no pass rushing just occupies lots of space)... or some mix of the two? [/color]

He's a combination of all that..however he is young..and yet he said he felt a jump to the NFL was playing with the BIG BOYS and he wasn't sure he was ready for that..well IMO if you aren't sure don't make the move..stay another year, learn and then be ready.

[color:"red"] Can we get someone in the 2nd that would be maybe not as good, but similarly effective?
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Yes..and even in the third.

[color:"orange"] Defensive Tackle | Senior | North Carolina St. DeMarcus Tyler
Height: 6-2 | Weight: 305 | 40-Time: 5.30

Official Bio

Strengths:
Three-year starter with a lot of experience...Has excellent size...A good athlete with great quickness...Very strong and powerful...Is stout at the point of attack and can hold his ground...Will deliver a blow and drive blockers backward...Able to penetrate and disrupt the action in the backfield...Pursues and chases when he's not tired...Disengages from blocks well...Still improving & had his best year in '06.

Weaknesses:
Tends to get out of shape and stamina has been a problem...Does not have very good timed speed and lacks a burst to close...Needs to play with more consistent leverage and keep his pad level down...Needs to use his hands better...Only an average pass rusher...Work ethic, intelligence and intangibles are questionable.

Notes:
Nickname is "Tank"...Played on the same defensive line that produced three 2006 first round picks (Mario Williams, Manny Lawson and John McCargo)...Was briefly moved to the offensive line as a sophomore...Really broke out as a senior in '06 and elevated his draft stock a great deal which is all the more impressive when you consider that he wasn't surrounded my as much talent as he was in previous years...Will still take too many plays off but there is no denying the talent and he has the tools...A boom or bust type who could excel with a more consistent effort.
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[color:"yellow"]Kareem Brown
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Position: DT
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College:

Miami

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Projected

Round3


Pros:
Cons:
Draft Exchange Analysis:
CAREER: Huge defensive tackle has patiently waited for his opportunity and now takes over a starter for the first time in his career...One of the team's most promising players heading into the 2006 season...Will replace Orien Harris (now with the Pittsburgh Steelers) in the starting lineup...One of the squad's best sackers...Has 9.5 career sacks, which is the second most of any returning player on the team...Other career totals include 97 tackles (44 solo), 18 tackles for loss, 21 QB pressures, one forced fumble, two fumbles recovered and seven passes defensed...Has played in 35 games (missing just two), making three starts in three seasons...Is a force against the run or as a pass rusher...Liberal arts major.




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I think there is a decent chance we take Adams no matter who is on the board.

He is going to be a very good NFL player.

You could very well be right .. I for one will jump ship ( Savage / Rac ) if we pass on Thomas if he is sittin there .. The only way I would stay with the " Guys " ; is if they were to work out a kick ass trade " Down " theme .. <img src="/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif" alt="" />
#2 Dna is right on when he talks about the play of the LB's in conjunction with the front three .. They are the first problem to be solved on the other side of the ball .. I refuse to budge when it comes to building a Champion ship team .. Up front / inside out , and I don't care what pretty boys are there for the pickin when are turn rolls around ! <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

That general philosophy concerns me at this point in our "rebuilding".

Early analysis don't project Thomas as anything more than the best OT in THIS draft. He's not being categorized with the Ogden/Pace group. Most don't even think he's as good as Ferguson - who's had a somewhat rocky introduction to the NFL (as most do).

LTs are hard to find, but if the opportunity is there to take another need position with a player that grades out significantly higher you know what has to be done.

Now if we pass on Thomas who studs out and the guy we take flopps - now we're talking about problems. If you pass on him you have to be SURE of what you're getting instead.

[color:"red"] He's not being categorized with the Ogden/Pace group. [/color]
But who has ?
He doesn't have to be on that level to be a priemer OT for us.
[color:"red"] Most don't even think he's as good as Ferguson [/color]

It's mixed from what I hear..he could get better than Ferguson..only questions are him gaining more strength/lower weight and his knee..but it usually takes a year from the prior injury season for a player to be back 100% so in 07 he should be o.k.

[color:"red"] LTs are hard to find, but if the opportunity is there to take another need position with a player that grades out significantly higher you know what has to be done.[/color]

No what? <img src="/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
[color:"red"]Now if we pass on Thomas who studs out and the guy we take flopps - now we're talking about problems. If you pass on him you have to be SURE of what you're getting instead. [/color]
No, no problem if that happens..Opie will just have to move his belongings that night after the draft <img src="/images/graemlins/rofl.gif" alt="" />

We can argue about his potential for days and still not agree and it won't matter. My point is based on how he's rated by the Browns organization.

If Thomas grades out as an above average starting NFL tackle, he'll deserve serious consideration based strictly on the position he plays. Now, if Gaines grades out as a franchise OLB, or Peterson or Branch (less likely, IMO, but you get the point) - the "right" decision becomes less clear, IMO.

In my mind, you always have to think very carefully before drafting a lesser talent based on position. That's all I'm getting at.

Attack.....if what you say is true about Savage going to RAC and getting his input, I bet you dollars to donuts RAC says we need help on the D-line before anything else.

I arrive at that conclusion for two reasons.

First, RAC is a defensive coach. He came up that way, places his emphasis on defense, and coaches from a defensive perspective.

Second, his dogged defense of Mo Carthon tells me he doesn't know much about offense, or, maybe more on point, is a super conservative when it comes to O.

Run a few times, don't turn it over, keep field position in your favor, get a turnover, kick a field goal or three, and win by 1 point.

IMO the guy doesn't really care about the O. It is an after thought that is now important only because he is a head coach and has to act like he cares.

If you look at who he has worked for, you can see how he was brought up. Problem is that he isn't a Bellicheck or Parcells....he is a Bud Carson or any number of coordinators who did a decent job only to flop when given the whole ball of wax.

Maybe my opinion is unfair, he hasn't been given a great deal. But it is what it is.

[color:"red"] In my mind, you always have to think very carefully before drafting a lesser talent based on position. That's all I'm getting at. [/color]
I know what you were getting at..and I know about that. <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
Thomas is a top ten player REGARDLESS of the position..he's that good..it's easy to look at the skill players and then devalue the linemen but thats a mistake, unless they actually don't grade out that high..
If Thomas talent level projected he should be taken after 10 -15 ..then you need to look at value for the pick..but he's rated and projected a top five selection right now.

This was my exact point and line of logic when I asked in another thread "just how good is Joe Thomas?". For us to be pimping the top OL in a draft is nothing new, so I ask are we pimping him because he's all that or is it just because we're so hard up for OL that we'll take anything as long as it's the top rated?

I understand that we need to improve, but do you improve a position with the massive investment a #3 pick is without a major improvement over what you have now (or replacing an aging vet with the same level of talent)?

When thinking about the team as a whole, is there a spot that have a more significant impact on how the whole thing functions?

The more I think about it, the more I make myself remember our two needs:

Stop the Run
Run the Ball


Both happen up the middle so my focus would be Branch in the 1st and the best damn mauler guard on the board in the 2nd.

" You could very well be right .. I for one will jump ship ( Savage / Rac ) if we pass on Thomas if he is sittin there .. The only way I would stay with the " Guys " ; is if they were to work out a kick ass trade " Down " theme ..
#2 Dna is right on when he talks about the play of the LB's in conjunction with the front three .. They are the first problem to be solved on the other side of the ball .. I refuse to budge when it comes to building a Champion ship team .. Up front / inside out , and I don't care what pretty boys are there for the pickin when are turn rolls around ! "

Thats the whole statement , please ! <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Up front / inside out / both side of the line/with BPA in mind <img src="/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif" alt="" />

Yeah - that response wasn't as clear as it should have been. Sorry 'bout that.

Should have done a j/c - that was why my first comment addressed that statement as a "philosophy" rather than as a whole.

[color:"red"] Attack.....if what you say is true about Savage going to RAC and getting his input, I bet you dollars to donuts RAC says we need help on the D-line before anything else.

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That could very well be the case..yet Phil already ACKOWLEDGED they need a NT..now he might be targeting someone in FA..so that need could be filled before the draft.

[color:"red"]IMO the guy doesn't really care about the O [/color]

Thats bull..I don't agree with that at ALL..Defense is his specality..he cares about the offense.

[color:"red"] he is a Bud Carson or any number of coordinators who did a decent job only to flop when given the whole ball of wax.

Maybe my opinion is unfair, he hasn't been given a great deal. But it is what it is. [/color]
Yes your opinion is that <img src="/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

When I say he doesn't care, it's not as if he doesn't want to score......just more in the context he doesn't know what to do so he doesn't place as much emphasis on the offensive side.

Somewhere in the black and white of the words, the intent didn't come across as was intended.

If we were having this conversation at the bar over a brew of some sort, I am confident you would have understood my meaning.

[color:"red"] When I say he doesn't care, it's not as if he doesn't want to score......just more in the context he doesn't know what to do so he doesn't place as much emphasis on the offensive side.

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Then why not just say he's less experienced handling the offense?
I would get that...but to say he doesn't care means he turns his back and doesn't give a crap how the offense goes..and we know that could not be,your offense has to help U WIN.

Because I think it goes just a little bit deeper than that.

He is a defensive guy. He thinks that way. I don't think it is just a matter of experience, it is a matter of style that IMO can't really change.

I know a defensive coaches mindset..and they have to adjust ..the successful ones get a assistant who handles the offense the way it needs to be.
That may happen next year.

Romeo got Mo...that should tell you something.

Sorry bro...I don't want this on job traing anymore.

Who is Romeo going to pick...or is someone going to pick for him??

Like I said.....he is going to get another year, but if he doesn't it won't upset me because I think we are going to have to replace him anyway.

I have a freind who follows another team and a week or so ago he mentioned to me in passing that we need another coach.

He doesn't follow the team or have any interest one way or the other....doesn't even really know anything about Romeo....asked where he came from....just an honest comment.

I am not saying that is the litmus test for me, but his opinion is one I trust and know it wasn't with any bias or understanding of the matter...but that lack of understanding removes any of the excuse we might want to apply towards Romeo. He is a great guy.........but that isn't what it is about.

[color:"orange"] Attack - even though I don't believe we will even trade down, I dream about it almost year. I try not to project who we will trade with or who we will be able to get lower because that is almost impossible. If I throw out a generic trade down scenario that like I did earlier I am just using it as a mechanism to bring up a few players and try to avoid the whole "he not worth the 3rd pick" and "he'll never last to the 2nd round" arguments.

I for one do not want Peterson. Same reason I didn't want DeAngelo Williams. Has either completed a college season without missing a game? With as many injuries as these guys have had what makes anyone think they are likely to all of a sudden be healthy in the NFL? Yea, I know Curtis Martin is the exception but one exception does not make it a good risk with the #3 overall pick.

Gaines Adams - He is too small to play DE in the 3-4. If we draft him, he will have to move to OLB. One thing to remember is that not all samller college DE's can be successful converting to a 3-4 OLB. I haven't seen much of Adams but I am not convinced that he can do it. From what I have seen he is strictly a 4-3 DE. Though I have not seen enough of him to state that with a lot of conviction (I just can't stand watching Clemson football for some reason). I really like Lamaar Woodley out of Michigan as a convert to OLB and he has already shown it in games that he can play the position. [/color]

Thats what Adams would be in our 34 ..a OLB tweener..Wimbley is 6 ' 3 248 ..tweener..

For this year, I just do not see the Browns going with another 3-4 DE.

Willie is still reasonably productive. And the real issue with the D has been the play of the DE's. Until that problem is fixed, the Browns will be suspect to the run.

I still don't see them going D if Thomas and/or Peterson is on the Board. And one of them will be there. The Browns are in far worse shape offensively, and that area needs addressing.

I agree if we draft Adams he would need to convert to OLB. My question is does he have the agility to make the transition? Seeing him do Lb drills at the combine my go a long way towards answering that question (one way or the other).

I am not sure I agree. 2-3 slots on O would go a long way....I feel we need 4-5 slots to fill on D.

I guess O could be 3-4 if you count the QB position.

Really, the sad thing to me is even with the players, I am not sure we can get it done.

That is a big question mark in my mind.