DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Browns Salary Cap

No one but you is talking about Baker.

YOU stated so, so many times how much better the Browns will be with a "real" quarterback. First year is done. Don't try to back away from what you stated in so many posts. I don't need to quote you. Everyone has read them.

He will show up next year after a full off season (those damn off seasons.........like he didn't have time to prepare for this year?) Nah, he'll show how good you think he is, and belabored the point ad nausea, this coming year, or he's a bust. Period. The end.

And further more, like you did when Baker was here - since you're telling me where to post - why don't you go back to being mr. invisible?

https://www.clevelandbrowns.com/new...-browns-offense-to-fit-qb-deshaun-watson

https://www.morningjournal.com/2022...ve-with-deshaun-watson-at-quarterback-2/
Kevin Stefanski eager for Browns offense to ‘evolve’ with Deshaun Watson at quarterback

Just a lie. A flat out lie. Watson had the playbook up until his suspension took place. he also got it back when he was re instated. He had the playbook. To think otherwise, let alone state is, is fool hardy.

Although, the way he played would make you think he'd never seen a play book, so you have that going for you.

There it is - the only guy on the forum that has to have Baker in every thread. 54,361 posts with a 1.36% "like" on his posts by fellow forum posters. Who's really filling the forum with trash and hijacking posts? It becomes more evident every day that the only person in this forum that's "Baker butthurt" is you.

Sorry, sent to wrong person - it's right now!

There it is - the only guy on the forum that has to have Baker in every thread. 54,361 posts with a 1.36% "like" on his posts by fellow forum posters. Who's really filling the forum with trash and hijacking posts? It becomes more evident every day that the only person in this forum that's "Baker butthurt" is you.

As it relates to this post........the correct answer is multiple people.

You do realize the "like" feature is a rather recent addition to these forums. An awful lot of posts made by people that have been here a while were made beforehand. Not that "like" percentage means a damn thing anyway.

I like that post, jfan 😀

Maybe it does and maybe it doesn't, but it doesn't change the fact that you can go to any thread and see his attacks and trash that he posts. I have no beef with you. Nobody has to read my posts, but I shouldn't have to accept being personally attacked for my opinion. If you disagree, post your opinion and let's move on - that never happens with him and he immediately resorts to name calling and attacks.

As it relates to track record? Only a couple. Shall I name them??????????????????????? Or is it obvious?

He's not lying, he's condensing. When you take the things you've said and boil it down, you are saying he's the man that will get us there. The thing is, he might be. But he didn't show it last season.

As for him not having a playbook,, not exactly accurate. He had a playbook during the off season stuff. He was at Camp. He was around during preseason and he received his playbook and was allowed to practice several weeks before actually starting a game.

Was it Ideal? No, of course not. That's why I'm giving some room in the debate. But he didn't light anything up when he finally got in a game.

He put it in quotation marks. I never said that. I have said there are no guarantees, but at least now we have a chance. I have also said he was a top 10 qb in the past. I have said that multiple teams that were willing to give up the farm for him. None of those things are lies. arch comes to this forum to fight. He rarely makes a legit football post. It's all about personalities w/him.

As far as having no play book. I misspoke. I knew it was just during the suspension. I apologize for the miscommunication.

You would think that the expectation level of knowing the playbook inside and out would have been at the highest degree for Watson. Think about it, the Browns paid Watson 46M last year. When the Browns restructured his contract in March and handed him the playbook and a check for $44,965,000, wouldn't you think that the minimum expectation would have been that he knew that playbook inside and out by the start of the season? Wouldn't you think that while watching the 11 games while suspended he would have been running the play call through his mind depending on the way the team lined up on the field or at a minimum associate the play ran by repeating that play call back to himself? To say he never had the playbook (which is a lie) and use that as an excuse for his play appears to say he did little to nothing during those 11 weeks for the $44,965,000 he was paid.

I'm not trying to be critical of Watson. I'm just asking a question as to what the expectations might have been and did the Browns get their money's worth or was this just a 11-week unplanned vacation where he was just supposed to stay in shape for the $44,965,000?

I myself IMHO, will give Watson the benefit of the doubt and say he knew the playbook inside and out. That should eliminate the idea that his play was attributed to the knowledge of the playbook. Was he completely fluent with the adjustments and game plan - probably not but the basics should have been there, and I would find it highly unlikely that Stefanski expected anything more than the base knowledge while calling every play for him anyways.

Some rust, timing, and developing a comradery with his WR's could explain away some of his poor performances but the playbook, that seems like just an excuse without validity. Afterall, if he didn't know the playbook, had rust, poor timing, and no comradery; what did the Browns pay 46M for in 2022?

Wow. Certain posters seem very touchy around here.

Your post was addressed to me but the quote wasn't mine so I have no idea who it is you were addressing with your post.

Wow, even when you are trying to start a conversation you get negative connotations. Someone on this thread made the statement that Watson didn't know the playbook even to the point of never having it. It was an opinion that this was the reason for Watson's poor play. I'm not alluding to anything. After it has been debunked that Watson didn't have the playbook, then the next question would be what he did to earn the 46M in 2022. If he didn't know the playbook; then the fans, his teammates and Cleveland Browns have been grossly shortchanged. If he did know the playbook, then what does that say about the opinions on this forum that his lack of knowledge of the playbook was a reason for his poor play? One other item, Watson didn't know he was getting a 11-game suspension until August. Until that moment, it was predicted that he'd get a 4-game suspension or none at all. Are you telling me he didn't know the playbook even before knowing of the lengthy suspension?

I've tried very hard to stay out of the Watson conversation as to his play in 2022, as much as I can. However, when I hear excuses like he never had the playbook or his lack of knowledge of the playbook caused his bad play after the Browns paid him 46M is laughable. I mean, you don't have to participate but lashing out at me for asking the question most any fan would want to know is clearly a just say me moment. Look, I want Watson to have a top-notch year in 2023 because I'm tired of watching this team lose. As a player, he has the tools, but he missed 11 games in 2022 because of his off the field extracurricular activities. I didn't cause that, the Browns didn't cause that, and his fellow teammates didn't cause that - that was all Watson. That shortchanged me the fan, his teammates, and the Cleveland Browns. He didn't have any problem collecting that 46M that he clearly wasn't going to earn but now I'm expected to accept some lame excuse like he didn't know the playbook? That's BS and you know it.

Now it's another off season and Watson has the playbook - just like last year. Shortly, the Browns will most likely restructure his deal and hand him a check for $44,965,000 again. The expectation would be that he reports to camp with a thorough knowledge of the playbook if the Browns are going to have any success in 2023. That should have been the expectation in 2022. The exact same thing every QB in the NFL goes through with a change in management - Watson is no different. My point based on the opinioned post, 46M is a hell of a lot of money to pay a player who wasn't prepared to play - based on another posters opinion of not knowing the playbook. It certainly presents the thought that if he couldn't learn in the last off season are we expected to see more of the same this year?

I never once intended to to say that not having the playbook while he was suspended was the reason he played poorly. I am saying that there were a multitude of factors and we can't dismiss it because we don't like him.

In fact, I am old enough to remember when people continually blamed one of our QBs poor play on bad weather, yet they never mention that Watson played in 2 bad-weather games. They just talk about his stats. I am not saying that playing in those two bad weather games was why he looked so bad, but I do think it should at least be acknowledged, especially after the huge amount of posts dedicated to the weather conditions for another of our QBs.

Again, I think there are a multitude of reasons why Watson played poorly. And he did play poorly. He held the ball too long. He made some inaccurate throws. He should have ran more. He wasn't always trusting what he was seeing.

I think the biggest reason for his poor play was the speed of the game. He missed a lot of time and he struggled w/the speed of the game, which is way faster than most people think. Reading coverages in less than 2.5 seconds is impossible for most of us. I cannot guarantee anything, but my guess is that he returns to form as being one of the better qbs in the entire league. I don't buy all this crap that he suddenly lost all of the skills that made him great not long ago.

And once again I'll point out that whether something is considered an excuse or a "factor" depends on the player.

We finally agree.

I agree with about 96% of what you post. Intended or not, assumptions of this forum go wild when people try to read something into a post that was not intended. Even when you try to explain the intention, like you have just done, forum mates attack without mercy. I'm as guilty as anyone else on this forum and I apologize for doing that. Anyway, contrary to popular believe, I never expected Watson to be top 5 elite when he stepped on the field in 2022. I likewise never expected him to be a bottom 5 cellar dweller either. I don't believe the Browns got their 46M worth out of Watson in 2022. There can be numerous reason s for that, but the bottom line is that his poor showing falls completely in Watsons lap. He has a lot of ground to make up before 2023 and he most likely is never going to get the benefit of the doubt. Thanks for the post, it explained a lot.

Oh, I'm pretty damn old myself.

Apology accepted. I think it got blown out of proportion because it was quoted and it stood alone. Everything else I wrote in that particular post was not quoted. Hell, I really don't even remember writing that part and I had a hard time finding where I wrote about the play book.

Waton was bad last year. I would never deny that. I wrote about how bad he looked in each of my Game Recap threads each week. I think he will be good again, but there are no guarantees.

When you get paid 230 million dollars people are usually looking for accountability first. "Just give it time" isn't something someone usually associates with that type of contract.

Did I say that you should give it time? I wasn't telling others what to think or do. I was speaking for myself.

I wasn't addressing that to you. I'll remind you again that not everything is about you.

I'm looking at the reality of the situation. Obviously watson was given a five year contract. We know that the first year of that contract the Browns didn't get elite QB play for watson. So now he received that 230 million for four years of elite QB play. I mean surely you don't think they paid him that kind of money to play average or below average.

So at this point the best case scenario is that they get four years of his expected level of play for 230 million dollars. That breaks down to 54.5 million per year. If it takes even longer for him to come back to form, that cost increases even more per the time he plays to the level they paid hm to play at. At some point that return on investment is cost prohibitive. I suppose each person can determine at what point that occurs.

Watson was not allowed to have a playbook during the 11 weeks he was suspended. (Which is the truth, not a lie)

Read the entire post instead of just pulling a part. The point was that Watson received the playbook in March and had the playbook in his possession all the way until August. If he had not been suspended, would he not have been expected to know the playbook inside and out for the start of the season just as every other QB that gets a new coach and/or switches teams? He made 46M last year and it would appear that some people here seem to think that while he was off for 11 weeks (actually only 5 weeks since Watson was allowed in the Browns facility since Oct. 10, but has only been permitted to work out with team training/medical staff, have his playbook back, attend meetings and meet individually with head coach Kevin Stefanski, offensive coordinator Alex Van Pelt and quarterbacks coach Drew Petzing.) Watson then became eligible to return to practice Monday, the day after the Browns’ Week 10 loss to the Dolphins. According to the opinion stated, that would mean that Watson just forgot everything in the playbook over a 5-week period and then the next 6 weeks learned nothing more about the Browns offense.


Deshaun Watson is back with the Cleveland Browns. The QB is permitted to return to the team facility on Monday for the first time since his 11-game suspension from the league took effect on August 30.

Watson was not allowed to have any contact with the Browns’ coaching staff, receive a game plan or playbook, or step foot in the team facility. Those protocols were all changed and took effect on Monday October 10th.

Watson is still barred from attending group workouts, practices, or games, but is certainly able to participate with his team at a much higher level.

I withdraw any assumption that it was a lie, but your forum post is not the truth because he had the playbook back in week 6.

Well, if we can't give it time and have to look at just this year, we have to say that Watson's base salary was just $402, 000 this year, his signing bonus was just short of $9 million, and his cap hit was $9,395,500. I believe that is far less than what we would have had to pay Baker Mayfield. So, I guess he still has time to earn that big contract he has.

False. He had the playbook from preseason and 2 weeks before his first game.

Lets be real... It's not like the playbooks changed significantly from pre-season either.

Let's be even more real. You took one line from a post I made that really had nothing at all to do w/the playbook other than that one line and posted it as a stand-alone post so you could throw shade at Watson and probably myself. I expect that kind of cheap-ass crap from some posters. Did not expect it from you.

Stop it, that is not how the contract is paid and you know it. There are two different items you're attempting to talk about, cap cost and contract cost. The Browns structured the contract so it would not affect the cap severely in 2022, His base salary was set at 1.035M not $402,000 as you state and his prorated bonus from spreading his first-year salary cost over 5-years was 8.993M for a total cap cost of $9,395,500 in 2022. In actual dollar cost though, the Browns paid 1.035M in 2022 salary and handed Watson a check at signing for the 1st year balance of 44.965M. Watson's cost to the Browns was 46M in year one - period. Mayfield was guaranteed and couldn't be adjusted but would have been only 18M in cash or cap money. Watsons cost was 46M and though Berry moved money so the cap cost was only $9.395,500 that additional $36,604,500 will have to hit the cap cost in future years so the Browns haven't paid Watson less by any stretch of the imagination. Here's the fact, Watson has a 100% guaranteed contract that pays him guaranteed 46M per season. How the Browns try to distribute that in the cap is an entirely different conversation but saying the Browns only paid Watson a bargain rate of $9,395,500 in 2022 is an untrue statement - that's what the cap number was set at by the Browns.

Bottom line, cost to Haslam's checkbook for Watson 2022 - 46M.

It was Pit who said we are not allowed to look forward and brought up $230 million. That's just plain stupid. We can look forward.

I got the numbers from spotrac. They are extremely reliable.

Excuse me, I forgot to delete his suspension money of 11/17 of the 1.035M leaving him a total check from the Haslam's of $45,330,294.10 in 2022.

I do think that circumstances (suspension) need consideration. In addition to his 11 week suspension with us, he was out all the year before. Man he had to be rusty. Can he come back from that much time off? He certainly didn't show it last year. But to be fair, I want to evaluate him after a full camp and preseason. If he can't do it after that, then we messed up. Bigly!

I did consider it. So he will be getting paid 230 million dollars for four years of actual elite QB play rather than five. That makes the average per year he is getting paid to play to an elite level is 54.5 million per year. And that's IF he comes out at the beginning of the season next year playing at that level. The longer it takes him to come back to his old level of play the less times the Browns get of what that salary expectation should be.

I didn't mention anything about the cap. I talked about the total of his contract and the average salary per season. The Browns actually paid watson $44.965 million in 2022. What is that? About four times what the QB whose name you can't keep out of your mouth made in 2022. And watson didn't look any better.

This is from PFF. It's cut candidates for all 32 NFL teams. I just pasted the AFC North commentary.











https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-cut-ca...ixon-kenny-golladay-frank-clark-2023#BLT