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Once again that seems odd. And in case you didn't notice, at least one of the very people who is agreeing with you has given Stefanski credit for everything I have suggested he does. Until now of course.

He claimed this is Stefanski's sheme, his playbook, he sets the game plan, controls the roster and he is great at getting the most out of the QB's. Now suddenly he acts like he never said those things.

Does anyone even know what he is talking about other than just babbling to try and fight?

I don't know, do you? What I'm talking about has been spelled out in plain English.

You are not even making sense. But, get your last word in. I won't respond and will just end by saying that once again you are making yourself look foolish in your quest to fight w/others.

You see, that's the way you label everything that you disagree with. You claim that any discussion that goes counter to your way of thinking is someone trying to start a fight. It's a very weak attempt to try to undermine any poster who makes any counterpoints contrary to the agenda you wish to push on this board.

And in actuality, I'm agreeing and advocating many points you yourself have made in the past.

You have said yourself that this offense is centered around Stefnaski's playbook and scheme. That he brought much of it with him from Minnesota and that it came from working with Kubiak. That Stefanski brings out the best in the QB's he works with. All of these things are counterpoints I've made in this discussion.

You may wish to ask yourself who it is that's looking foolish at this point.

V-dog, good example....sure has worked in KC. Our biggest need/s- the clock is ticking, the team has talent but each year our "stars" get older- we have liked "cheap youth"- I hope we SPEND for big block eating DT- they young guys are playing against huge/ super talented linemen and they are young, not-fully developed DL who ain't getting it done. Also, we need PROVEN talent at WR- Schwartz and Bell haven't cut it- get a proven product.....GO Browns!!!!

It is a good example - but does anyone think that if Bill Parcels had hired a complimentary coordinator that was coaching poorly, had his side of the ball confused with players saying there was confusion and miscommunication etc, or who had a trend of starting slowly and then getting better after losing winnable games in the first 8 games of each season - anyone think that Bill wouldn't take an active role in fixing that problem? Anyone think he wouldn't take ownership?

Of course, he would have and that's what Reed would do in KC. We don't have that type of HC and he never takes ownership of the team's results. What we do have is an above average OC and a DC that has a good resume, but the accountable HC position has been and continues to remain open.

3 Browns trade targets from the Buccaneers after Tom Brady’s retirement
Jacob Roach
Wed, February 1, 2023 at 8:22 PM EST

For the second time, Tom Brady has announced his retirement from the NFL and the Tampa Bay Buccaneers. Many are wondering if this is the beginning of a rebuild for Tampa and if so the Cleveland Browns could be buyers. They are in the need of both veteran players and more talent with eight draft picks in this year’s draft.

Though the team isn’t likely to trade for any massive contracts they could still make some moves if they feel the price is right. A look at three players that I believe the Browns could try and target if the Buccaneers become sellers this offseason.

Russell Gage, Wide Receiver

The Browns need a legitimate slot receiver and a player who can stretch the field vertically and that’s exactly what Russell Gage can bring. Gage suffered a neck injury and concussion in the playoffs but assuming he is healthy he is one of the best vertical threats that could be on the market this offseason.

The contract could be a reason to be wary but his production and ability would make this team more explosive. Adding Gage to the slot with Cooper and Peoples-Jones on the outside would be a great trio for quarterback Deshaun Watson.

Cameron Brate, Tight End

The Browns need to find more production outside of David Njoku at tight end and Cameron Brate would be a great complimentary piece. He doesn’t bring elite stats or talent but he is a veteran that is reliable in the red zone and a willing blocker.

The contract isn’t a bad one for the team and likely wouldn’t cost much in terms of compensation for the trade. Brate would raise the basement of the tight end room though not by much.

Joe Tryon-Shoyinka, Edge Rusher

I was very high on Joe Tryon-Shoyinka when he was coming out of Washington in the 2021 draft. The team might not be willing to trade the former first-round pick but if they are the Browns should jump on it.

Tryon-Shoyinka is an incredibly explosive player off the line of scrimmage with good flexibility and hand placement. He has lined up both with his hand in the dirt and as a stand-up rusher and he would fit in great in Jim Schwartz’s defensive scheme.

Why do we think Tampa has given up? True, Tom Brady is leaving. Is the team so far gone they can't bring in another QB? Is the team so depleted of talent they can only win with Bradey?

In my opinion and with the talent they have, by gosh dare I say, Jacoby Brissett?

I'm not saying Brissett is better than Brady by any means. But, Brissett brings a different vibe. If SF can do what they do with their QBs, why can't Tampa? OK, the big question is the coaching staff.

My belief is Tom wasn't fully into playing. I think Tom fooled himself into thinking he was mentally able and wanting to play.

Jacoby has the vibe that could rejuvenate the team. I still question the coaching staff. The investment signing Jacoby is minimal to find the answer.

I think we'll see Jimmy G in Tampa.

I'm rooting for Blaine Gabbert

You might see Lamar there. I also think Jimmy G., Brissett, and Baker (if he doesn't get signed by the Rams) will all land spots to 'compete' for starting positions at a minimum. And I wouldn't be surprised if Brissett doesn't get an offer to start that he ends up back on our roster somehow, but I honestly think he'll get snapped up.

Not sure what Michael Thomas you're talking about, but the Saints Michael Thomas is under contract to the Saints the next two years and for way more than 12.5M. They restructured his contract but most likely will be cut before 3/17 with a post June 1 designation. The link explaining this complicated move is attached.

Michael Thomas Current Contract Restructured 1/7/2023

Year___Age____Base Salary_____Prorated Bonus__Roster Bonus___Per Game Bonus___Workout Bonus____Guaranteed Salary___Cap Number

2023__30_____$1,165,000______$11,993,588____$200,000______$500,000________$200,000_________$0_______________ $13,558,588
2024__31____$18,500,000_______$7,993,588____$32,755,000 ___$750,000________$200,000_________ $0______________ $59,448,588
2025__32_____Void_____________$3,093,588____VOID__________Void____________Void_____________Void______________ $0
2026__33_____Void_____________$3,093,588____Void___________Void____________Void_____________Void______________ $0


2023 salary reduced from $15.5M to $1.165M
$31.755M 2024 roster bonus added, becomes fully guaranteed 3/17/2023

https://saintswire.usatoday.com/lis...ructure-salary-cap-hit-contract-changes/

That 2024 contract year looks interesting, to say the least.

PFF can only be assuming that Thomas will be available which he most likely will be but I'm betting that he won't actually be available until post June 1. It's a fact that he is still under contract to the Saints. I could be wrong but IMHO, getting Thomas for 12.5M when he was scheduled to make base salary of 15.5M in 2023 and 18.5M in 2024 would be wishful thinking. If he can pass a physical, I would expect a multi-year deal from some team. JMHO though.

I don't know what it would take to get him, probably at least a 2nd rnd pick, but there are rumors that the Bengals may be willing to trade Tee Higgins. He is a free agent after this year and supposedly so far contract talks have not gone well, Higgins is rumored to be looking for a huge payout beyond what the Bengals are looking to pay.

Higgins is a #1 WR on a team with another #1 WR.

Love to get him, although he wont end up here. I can see maybe the Chargers if they get rid of Allen

2023’s biggest cap hit in the NFL is not Deshaun Watson
Jacob Roach
Wed, February 8, 2023 at 1:48 PM EST

The Cleveland Browns gave quarterback Deshaun Watson a fully guaranteed contract after acquiring him last season. As you would expect his cap number in 2023 is large (before any restructuring of course) but it’s not the league’s biggest. Watson checks in at number two on the list with a 54.9 million dollar hit but the guy higher than that may shock you.

New Orleans Saints wide receiver Michael Thomas carries a cap hit of 59.4 million in 2023. The way the team designed it and pushed money off has the bill finally coming due. There is no way any team will trade for him as things stand and the Saints are likely already working on fixing the number.

I still think WR is the number 1 need on this team.
You give up as much as you did for DW you better put
The weapons around him to help insure you get a return
Investment.
Your falling into that common mindset that you are hoping
For growth and maturation from the Browns WRs.
It's been that way since 1999.
WRs that are drafted in late RDs are drafted their for a reason.
WRs drafted above RD 3 now come into the league and put up big time production
Right away. Their is no wait and see period.
I saw nothing out of David Bell that makes me think he nothing
More than a 3rd WR at best. I didn't see any explosion or suddenness
Or separation from him. What was his longest catch all year
20 yds? He has decent hands but after the catch he does
Nothing
Michael Woods didn't stand out in limited snaps
Look at his production at Oklahoma. Very pedestrian
He couldn't even beat underclassmen downfield.
The Browns have a bottom 5 WR room in the room.
The only WR that can make things happen after a catch
Is Cooper. And even now Cooper is getting close to 30.
Who was the last Browns WR drafted that put in defenses ?

There's a difference in hoping a WR will develop and having productive WR's on the roster. When you're paying the 230 million dollar man, hope they will develop isn't enough. Just watch. This ownership and FO have all of their eggs put in one basket. The watson basket and they know it. I don't think any reasonable thinking person believes they'll just leave that to chance in hopes that very unproductive WR's will turn from moths into butterflies. They have too much invested to take that risk on buts and maybes.

Overall a good football post. The Browns should try to upgrade at WR this off-season, via draft or trade, but the jury is still out on Bell and Woods. I don’t like throwing rookie wideouts into the trash. It’s one of the toughest positions for a rookie. Year 2 usually tells us a lot more.

The unknown is who the Browns will or could sign via FA at WR. Depending on that cost structure, I expect the Browns to keep Woods and Bell without question. Schwartz is very border line and could be the guy out unless the Browns cut back on TE's. 2024 is the year where I think there could be big changes at WR with Cooper becoming a cap casualty (saving almost 13M) with DPJ, whomever the Browns sign via FA this year, and either Bell or Woods occupying the 3rd WR slot. The Browns are already 9M plus over the proposed cap for 2024 and that's before any restructures this year, FA signings, or the draft. There will have to be some cap casualties in 2024 and Cooper could be one of the prime suspects to be cut due to it being his final year of his contract at a 23.776M cap charge. Anyway, I expect the Browns to keep the two rookies at least another year.

The Browns will restructure Watson again in 2024. I think the Browns restructure and extend Cooper or just pay him his final year. I see Wyatt Teller as one to be moved as well as either Newsome or Emerson. The Browns may move on from Chubb unless he is willing to extend and restructure. There is not a world where I envision the Browns paying Chubb $16.2M with a dead cap of $4.2M in 2024. This would explode their guardrails.

Denzel Ward will likely be restructured to create cap space in 2024.

I don't think there is a chance we move on From Chubb until he is in his 30's. Weapons like him are few and far between.

You may be right but a lot hinges on what they do this year to create cap space. If they restructure Watson this year and next, the Browns will be looking at a cap charge of over 80M per season for Watson in 2025 and 2026. With Ward, they have already played that game a couple of times so another restructure in 2024 would take his cap charge in 2025 to over 27M and 2026 to over 32M. Add in Garret's cap hits of 29M in 2023, 32M in 2024, 27M in 2025, and 28M in 2026 you're looking at approx 135M or almost 50% of the cap for 3 players in 2025 alone. Bumping Teller in 2024 still leaves a cap hit of 7.6M and only creates 6.2M in cap space. Bumping Chubb in 2024 will create 12.2M in cap space so that is an option but not one I support. In any case, there will be cap casualties in 2024, just depends how deep depending how many more cans they kick down the road. Let's not forget that exercising Wills 5th year option will take him from a cap charge of 6.2m this year to about 15M next year guaranteed, another 9M bump in cap spending with another long-term deal facing them starting in 2025.

I actually agree with you. The hope is these WR's will develop so you don't have to continue to pay FA money to fill the spots. That could be next season, two seasons from now or never. The problem here is that you only have watson signed for four more seasons making huge money and he will need weapons now. I still think you need to develop drafted players but you can't count on them in the moment or pay watson that kind of money and risk wasting one of those remaining four seasons in the hope that these second year players will develop overnight.

I actually think we're on the same page here.

basketry port
basket report

And again..........the thread is being hijacked by you and Pit will help you in that quest. No one is telling you that you can't post your opinions. But please stop hijacking threads w/the same crap over and over. There is a Salary Cap thread. Why not post your thoughts in that one? We all know why.

Back to the thread topic.

I think the Browns will make one big splash FA signing. The rest will be FA will probably be rotational guys or complimentary pieces.

I wonder how much Javon Hargrave will get paid? Has to be a lot, right?

What about Daron Payne? Again, probably a lot.

Zach Allen? Probably substantial, but not quite as much as the two above.

Any of you guys who know a lot about salaries and the market have any idea what type of money these guys will get?